[Dan Bilzerian]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

OK, so the challenge question is-

Can the DME be re-tuned for larger injectors?
Would it need to be retuned at all since it targets AFR?
Are there cold start maps/ open loop maps that would need to be changed?

Is there a MAF table?

Would it be possible to flash a N55 fuel and timing table into a N52?
I don't see why not if you are targeting afr.

Do we even know what size injectors we need though?

[CobraMarty]

30lb/hr for example.

[hassmaschine]

yes the injector size can be retuned, however AFAIK nobody knows of a suitable injector upgrade. You can't just slap in any old injector, or at least, if you do, it will probably not work very well.

I don't know why you would want N55 timing/fuel maps. I doubt they would be optimal for an N52 with a turbo - you'd be better off tuning your own.

[Dan Bilzerian]

I got in touch with a shop that specializes with injectors and they gave me this link http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/flow-rate-calculator

[hassmaschine]

the problem isn't that you can't figure out what size to run. the problem is finding larger injectors that have the proper spray pattern for a motor with valvetronic. newer BMWs are no use as they are all direct injection...

[CobraMarty]

10* vs 20* spray pattern doesn't seem like much of a difference to me. Poor idling with 10* spray injectorsmight have been a tune issue and not spray pattern issue.

Why wouldn't the N55 maps be optimal? It is basically a N52 with a turbo. DI vs PI but you are still targeting AFRs.
So N55 maps on a N52 turbo which has characteristics like the N55 turbo.

Yeah you would need like 36-40pound injectors.
Stock N52 injectors are like ? 24 pounders?

[Terraphantm]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

10* vs 20* spray pattern doesn't seem like much of a difference to me. Poor idling with 10* spray injectorsmight have been a tune issue and not spray pattern issue.

Why wouldn't the N55 maps be optimal? It is basically a N52 with a turbo. DI vs PI but you are still targeting AFRs.
So N55 maps on a N52 turbo which has characteristics like the N55 turbo.

Yeah you would need like 36-40pound injectors.
Stock N52 injectors are like ? 24 pounders?

With DI, the fuel is injected after compression, so a leaner mixture can be used without risking predetonation. This is why the N54 and N55 run stoich rather than 12:1 like in a traditional setup.

Injector timing will also be completely different

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

10* vs 20* spray pattern doesn't seem like much of a difference to me. Poor idling with 10* spray injectorsmight have been a tune issue and not spray pattern issue.

Why wouldn't the N55 maps be optimal? It is basically a N52 with a turbo. DI vs PI but you are still targeting AFRs.
So N55 maps on a N52 turbo which has characteristics like the N55 turbo.

Yeah you would need like 36-40pound injectors.
Stock N52 injectors are like ? 24 pounders?

it just doesn't work like that. no offense, but you don't know what you're even asking about. there is *way* more to optimize than the full load fuel/ignition. everything would have to be retuned, and the DME variants, while similar, are not exactly the same. it's not like you can just flash an N55 tune on an N52 DME and have it work. there are over 8,000 constants, curves, and maps to deal with.

adding the PI system on top of everything like you mention in the other thread is going to cause the DME to go haywire. it's still going to be attempting to control fuel, and you're adding another totally independent system on top of it.

if you want to start a thread about making a turbo tune DME, go ahead. But I'm going to request that you leave it out of this one. it's pie in the sky nonsense IMO..

[CobraMarty]

You control the stock DME from going haywire and pulling fuel with O2 sensor clamps.

I would want a 2nd cloned stock back up DME for the 328.

[hassmaschine]

Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to clone MSV80. There might be some way, but even if you could get into boot mode with it, I don't believe the ISN chip is accessible like it is in MSV70. I haven't seen anything out there hardware wise that looks like it supports the MSV80/MSD80 Tricore CPU either. The only way may be desoldering chips and using an EEPROM reader, but that's very risky. I've destroyed many a DME that way..

[CobraMarty]

That is interesting about the MSV80. I have to check which DME is in the '07 328, I thought it was a MSV70. One more hurdle.

What DME model is in the 335 '07-'10 N54 and in the '11+ N55?

[hassmaschine]

all 328s are MSV80. only the 2006 cars came with MSV70 (330i/325i).

N54 uses MSD80 (D stands for direct injection, V for valvetronic). It's basically MSV80 with support for direct injection & boost. I think the N55 uses MSD81 or something but I haven't researched it much. All of these DMEs are rooted in MSV70 though.

[CobraMarty]

Arg, transition years like the '07 MSV80. My confusion, Thanks for the teaching.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is- "All of these DMEs are rooted in MSV70"
Similar but different? Some overlap? Same basic architecture?

[hassmaschine]

they are based on the same control scheme. MSV70 has the foundations in it for boost & direct injection.

the CPU in MSV80/MSD80 is different (TriCore vs PPC) but it's more of a port than a complete re-write..

[rjahl]

I've finally managed to get back to the E70 comparisons and I have yet to identify the differences I would expect between the following:

330I USA MSV70 255HP
X5 3.0SI USA MSV80 272 HP
Z4 E89 3.0I USA MSV80 258 HP

I've cross referenced the Following maps

Full Load Lambda
Ignition timing
VVT reference angles
Exhaust spread
Intake Spread

Even if the E70 did have a better flowing exhaust, I would expect BMW to have made some changes to the VVT to make use of it.

What am I missing?

[hassmaschine]

torque maps?

also, sorry for no updates here, and people who have been asking about files etc. Just a little burned out, had to actually sleep in a couple mornings.

[Terraphantm]

Originally Posted by rjahl

I've finally managed to get back to the E70 comparisons and I have yet to identify the differences I would expect between the following:

330I USA MSV70 255HP
X5 3.0SI USA MSV80 272 HP
Z4 E89 3.0I USA MSV80 258 HP

I've cross referenced the Following maps

Full Load Lambda
Ignition timing
VVT reference angles
Exhaust spread
Intake Spread

Even if the E70 did have a better flowing exhaust, I would expect BMW to have made some changes to the VVT to make use of it.

What am I missing?

According to the training docs, the E70 made 260hp

http://www.bmwmotorsports.org/pdf/e7...troduction.pdf

[rjahl]

Originally Posted by Terraphantm

According to the training docs, the E70 made 260hp

http://www.bmwmotorsports.org/pdf/e7...troduction.pdf

Thanks, I've seen a few HP figures for the X5 3.0 SI posted on the internet. I guess I need to look further.

The Peak torque RPM on this document seems dubious 315Nm @3,000 RPM. I haven't seen any of the 3 liter N52s turn peak torque that high, at least factory figures.

I pulled a few more torque maps from the E70 MSV80 last night, Still nothing jumps out at me and says this is any different from a MSV70 330I tune. I'll clean up my notes and post the spreadsheet tonight, perhaps one of you with more experience and talent then me can spot the difference.

I have not forgotten about my Winfkp and ODB misadventures. I've really hit a wall with getting the processor to accept any tuned file over ODB and I should do a write up to share. Currently BDM is my only working tool.

[rjahl]

Originally Posted by Terraphantm

According to the training docs, the E70 made 260hp

http://www.bmwmotorsports.org/pdf/e7...troduction.pdf

I did a little more digging and It looks like you are right. I found an owner's manual and it's rated 260HP @6600 and 225 Lb ft. @2750. I don't think BMW will mess up the specs on the manual.

[tinkerputzer]

So does that mean the 272 hp figure is more or less a mistake?

[Dan Bilzerian]

Originally Posted by tinkerputzer

So does that mean the 272 hp figure is more or less a mistake?

I don't know, I've found documents saying otherwise but they are the European version.

Edit:
200 kW Applications:
2007–present E83 X3 3.0si sports activity vehicle
2006-2007 E70 X5 3.0si sports activity vehicle
200 kW (270 hp) @ 6650 - 315 N·m (232 lb·ft) @ 2750

[rjahl]

It's looking that way, I'll probably work this back to a document that mixed up DIN vs. SAE ratings.