[sdstatestud88]

Is there anything keeping us from running a top mount turbo?

[JetBlack335i]

The mitigating factor in this equation is the injector size. To my knowledge there are no aftermarket piezo injectors. The injectors would need to flow enough CC's to support the CFMs the larger turbos produce to make more power.

My guess is that this is reason why most of those turbo upgrade kits that all these tuners were making a couple years back never came into fruition.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by joshuo

Of course this would go paired with all the necessary supporting mods, I was just wondering if anyone is thinking further ahead than RB's and ASR's, as good as these may be. I can't imagine, if people are fitting a GT35X with a monstrous manifold, how we couldn't fit a set of GT25's or GT28's

Maybe if the manifolds were to be designed as to bring the turbos down lower, there would be more space (since the engine is canted to the passenger side).

I personally think the market and platform is the problem.

Once you dip into bigger turbo's you dip into a large cost exponentially for the supporting modification. Thats my theory anyway.

Figure those 2 turbo's alone around going to cost ~800 each. The manifold is probably going to be nearly $2400. (Based of of 2JZ Full Race Manifold).

Probably will need a custom intercooler, and other misc hardware and piping for another $2000. Dont forget the BMW tax for the limited market.

Then you are going to need the supporting mods to counteract fuel (which are not even out). There is one guy that is doing that right now on his custom build. That cost?~$2000? Then you would need a tuning solution for the secondary port injection (if you want to do things the right way).

Naturally, you will need an upgraded clutch and the other things I mentioned. You are well over $10K at this point.

IMO this is the wrong platform to be messing with. But that is just my opinion.

Anyone is free to pick apart my pricing but until there is something out we have nothing to base off of but historical data from other similar platforms.

This topic is up for debate, I'm curious to here others theories.

[unfor]

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

There is one guy that is doing that right now on his custom build. That cost?~$2000? Then you would need a tuning solution for the secondary port injection (if you want to do things the right way).

Right around there.
Tuning shouldn't be an issue for seconadry injection, although the tuning software is around $2,500 right now. that doesnt even include all additional hardware , fuel lines, etc.
Its expensive, for sure. But once you get to the 600 rwhp club, its worth it.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by unfor

Right around there.
Tuning shouldn't be an issue for seconadry injection, although the tuning software is around $2,500 right now. that doesnt even include all additional hardware , fuel lines, etc.
Its expensive, for sure. But once you get to the 600 rwhp club, its worth it.

Good luck with it!

[Transport3r]

Would Secondary Port Injection be able to be controlled with the piggies (procede or JB)
or would one have to switch to a standalone?

[cotmfk]

Sorry to be a tease, but... I know of at least one shop that is working on a big twin turbo set up. If they get it running right, this thing is going to be a monster! They have done some good work in the past, so I have confidence they should be able to get the job done and bring the product to market.

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

Once you dip into bigger turbo's you dip into a large cost exponentially for the supporting modification. Thats my theory anyway.

I think you hit the nail on the head. That's why I'm going RB's. I can get to 475-480whp with 93 octane and meth and use all the stock plumbing, have stock like power curves, lag, and use a street clutch. If I want to go for track numbers I can dump in race gas and hit 500 whp. For me it's worth the $3k + install and that's my goal for this platform.

There will be the outliers in the community that will make the investment to go bigger with all the supporting mods, and that's great and will help the rest of us see what the options are and what the motor can handle.

Go unfor!

[unfor]

Originally Posted by joshuo

Would Secondary Port Injection be able to be controlled with the piggies (procede or JB)
or would one have to switch to a standalone?

need to switch to proEFI to get sequential fire.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by joshuo

Would Secondary Port Injection be able to be controlled with the piggies (procede or JB)
or would one have to switch to a standalone?

Shiv said at one point the PROcede could control it...

[Transport3r]

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

Shiv said at one point the PROcede could control it...

I remember that too, but I think he might have been talking about a single injector at the throttle body which batch Fires?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by joshuo

I remember that too, but I think he might have been talking about a single injector at the throttle body which batch Fires?

Oh I was under the impression the idea was to run 6 injectors at the intake manifold. I dont think controlling the injectors is that hard though. If you think about their PWM meth kit and mapping and how that works its basically the same concept except they are wired to injectors output and mapped accordingly.

Its up to them to decide if they want to get into that, which all falls back to my original comment as I dont think there is enough market cause of the exponential cost.

[unfor]

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

Oh I was under the impression the idea was to run 6 injectors at the intake manifold. I dont think controlling the injectors is that hard though. If you think about their PWM meth kit and mapping and how that works its basically the same concept except they are wired to injectors output and mapped accordingly.

Its up to them to decide if they want to get into that, which all falls back to my original comment as I dont think there is enough market cause of the exponential cost.

Completely different.

Batch fire is not the way to go with secondary injection, at all. I tried it . It sucks. For meth, its fine. But the piston's are in different positions so it still needs cam/crank data to work properly, not just RPM.

The only two ways to run EFI is semi-sequential or completely sequential.

Both requires an expensive tune. The Haltech Sprint 500 works along with the proEFI. the proEFI is a better overall tune with stg. 2 antilag and traction control.

[Transport3r]

Originally Posted by unfor

The Haltech Sprint 500 works along with the proEFI.

Is it just me or does that look like a Procede with a sticker on it?


Unfor, Is ProEFI a standalone? If so does the stock DME need to be retained in order to keep the other systems in the car happy?

[unfor]

the procede is the haltech interceptor. The sprint 500 is MUCCCCHHH different beast then the interceptor. It allows 3 injectors, so semisequential fire.

Now...the Haltech interceptor needs CAN programming which is a PITA.

The proEFI is not a standalone. it could be, but controlling DI is difficult. ProEFI is getting there, but as of now, it still can't control DI. Also, proEFI elected to have the stock DME control throttle and VANOS; so, it never will be.

It does have 12 injector inputs though, so more then enough.

[supracg]

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

I personally think the market and platform is the problem.

Once you dip into bigger turbo's you dip into a large cost exponentially for the supporting modification. Thats my theory anyway.

Figure those 2 turbo's alone around going to cost ~800 each. The manifold is probably going to be nearly $2400. (Based of of 2JZ Full Race Manifold).

Probably will need a custom intercooler, and other misc hardware and piping for another $2000. Dont forget the BMW tax for the limited market.

Then you are going to need the supporting mods to counteract fuel (which are not even out). There is one guy that is doing that right now on his custom build. That cost?~$2000? Then you would need a tuning solution for the secondary port injection (if you want to do things the right way).

Naturally, you will need an upgraded clutch and the other things I mentioned. You are well over $10K at this point.

IMO this is the wrong platform to be messing with. But that is just my opinion.

Anyone is free to pick apart my pricing but until there is something out we have nothing to base off of but historical data from other similar platforms.

This topic is up for debate, I'm curious to here others theories.

Hm, kinda seems like on any platform a build with new turbos, tuning, manifold etc. would be pretty expensive as well. What platforms are significantly better?

EDIT: Other than the rare supra engine, from what it looks like the n54 may be able to handle some serious power without expensive engine builds/support compared to other platforms

[Naptime]

Originally Posted by supracg

Hm, kinda seems like on any platform a build with new turbos, tuning, manifold etc. would be pretty expensive as well. What platforms are significantly better?

EDIT: Other than the rare supra engine, from what it looks like the n54 may be able to handle some serious power without expensive engine builds/support compared to other platforms

+1

There was a time when making big power in a Supra was pretty rare. As time went on, the market adjusted to demand and bigger and better methods to make big power became more abundant. Right now supply is non existent and demand is hard to gauge based on the limited amount of cars on the road that are out of warranty. Once a number of cars are out of daily service and people with means begin to foot the bill for the r&d of the initial bigger turbo kits we'll see numerous options hit the market. This is already happening with "unfor's" car. He's paving the way in the E9X N54 platform by having a single turbo kit custom built. If the owners of the shop he is commisioning the build through are any kind of business people at all, they'll at least consider replicating it for people that are interested? If not, what is the point of dealing with all of the trial and error?

[secretsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

IMO this is the wrong platform to be messing with. But that is just my opinion.

Until we can get the HPFP, injectors and other issues sorted out, you are correct. This car is not very reliable at stock levels and less when modified. To be talking about Supras (with Japanese reliability) is still premature, IMO.

[LooseLipzSinkShipz]

Nice

[Q4P]

Originally Posted by unfor

the procede is the haltech interceptor. The sprint 500 is MUCCCCHHH different beast then the interceptor. It allows 3 injectors, so semisequential fire.

Now...the Haltech interceptor needs CAN programming which is a PITA.

The proEFI is not a standalone. it could be, but controlling DI is difficult. ProEFI is getting there, but as of now, it still can't control DI. Also, proEFI elected to have the stock DME control throttle and VANOS; so, it never will be.

It does have 12 injector inputs though, so more then enough.

I'm a little confused Unfor, IIRC you are using ProEfi to tune for your big turbo setup but you are saying it cannot control DI. Then how does this work?, does your setup keep DI controlled by the Factory DME until a certain boost / power level and then the PROefi kicks in at higher power levels with secondary injection? This seems to be the only way to make this work especially if you are keeping the stock DME as removing that would require an entire engine calibration from the ground up to make everything work as with an AEM standalone. Fully built / Very High HP evos remove the stock ecu and install and AEM full standalone but the entire ecu has to then program the entire engine. Keeping in mind, evos are not DI which makes things simpler but would it be impossible at your level to completely redo fueling in the 335i and remove DI for simplicities sake?

[Kerosene Hat]

Originally Posted by 2Hip

I have what I think is a stupid question but I'll ask anyway.

Is it possible to have 1 smaller turbo for lower RPM spool and a larger for high RPM spool?

Best of both worlds but I'd imagine the ECU would have a tough time managing the different boost levels.

The MkIV Toyota Supra used a sequential design in its twin turbo system, iirc. Perhaps the greatest of all "attainable" supercars...and that was the 1990s.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by unfor

Completely different.

Batch fire is not the way to go with secondary injection, at all. I tried it . It sucks. For meth, its fine. But the piston's are in different positions so it still needs cam/crank data to work properly, not just RPM.

The only two ways to run EFI is semi-sequential or completely sequential.

Both requires an expensive tune. The Haltech Sprint 500 works along with the proEFI. the proEFI is a better overall tune with stg. 2 antilag and traction control.

You are on point sir.

Originally Posted by supracg

Hm, kinda seems like on any platform a build with new turbos, tuning, manifold etc. would be pretty expensive as well. What platforms are significantly better?

EDIT: Other than the rare supra engine, from what it looks like the n54 may be able to handle some serious power without expensive engine builds/support compared to other platforms

I think you guys my be confusing my wording perhaps. This car has great potential in theory, the problem is every other platform that makes good power also has a STRONG aftermarket support.

Where as we have none. They are also not DI, and they also have a large engine bay to work with.

A flaw in the N54 is its open deck. At what power level will that become a factor, I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by secretsquirrel

Until we can get the HPFP, injectors and other issues sorted out, you are correct. This car is not very reliable at stock levels and less when modified. To be talking about Supras (with Japanese reliability) is still premature, IMO.

Exactly, there is no aftermarket support. I can order up $10,000 worth of stuff for a supra today and have it at my door by friday.

With our platform, everything needs to be designed first. Plus we already ran into limitations on stock hardware.

We cant upgrade injectors, cant upgrade HPFP so we are out of fuel.

You name it, Supra, Skylines, Mustangs, Vettes, ETC have readily available parts that directly swap to make big power.

Its not so much that its impossible to do on a BMW, its that it hasnt been done.