[buster84]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

If you want cheap labor do it yourself or buy a different platform.
or you know, buy a proper turbo and get it done right the first time.

Bmws tend to blow more than others when pushing power in the 600+ range.
I would like to know any platform that can do +600whp with a stock 3.0L engine block and with any sort of reliability. N54 has gotten so cheap and accessible these days, everyone is expecting +500whp out of only $1000 worth of mods.

I'm not trying to argue, but I'm confused about why you'd be so angry about aftermarket parts not covering labor costs if it fails. No matter what you buy they never cover labor ever, this goes for anything you buy at advanced auto parts, AutoZone ect...

Also you recently had issues with your ACF single kit which I'm glad to see that it worked out, but even you ran into problems with the fitment of the kit and ACF didn't help. That's worse than the labor lost because the kit itself wasn't replaced by acf for the fitment issues.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1450450

Either way I'm happy you got your car running and that's all that matters. As for the OP the biggest question that determines what he should do will have to do with CA smog. GC lights will pass the visual since most won't ever realize what they are and twins are hidden down low, but a single will never pass unless you pay someone to break the law or you have a really good friend. If his car is 100% track where he plans to tow it to the track then his options are endless.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by buster84

I'm not trying to argue, but I'm confused about why you'd be so angry about aftermarket parts not covering labor costs if it fails. No matter what you buy they never cover labor ever, this goes for anything you buy at advanced auto parts, AutoZone ect...

Also you recently had issues with your ACF single kit which I'm glad to see that it worked out, but even you ran into problems with the fitment of the kit and ACF didn't help. That's worse than the labor lost because the kit itself wasn't replaced by acf for the fitment issues.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1450450

Either way I'm happy you got your car running and that's all that matters. As for the OP the biggest question that determines what he should do will have to do with CA smog. GC lights will pass the visual since most won't ever realize what they are and twins are hidden down low, but a single will never pass unless you pay someone to break the law or you have a really good friend. If his car is 100% track where he plans to tow it to the track then his options are endless.

I am not arguing about the covering the labors or what not. And like wise, I am glad your setup is working all good now.

All I am saying these turbos should NOT have fail so easily in the first place. And since some of these vendors have failed to provide a reliable stock frame solution despite years of experience, one should really looks else where for a more reliable solution.

Yes I am aware of that there are people who have no problem with them. But even with the forum being the echo chambers that they are, all reports of smoking, leaks, excess shaft play over the years are just too many.

Btw, I would not recommend ACF after my own experience with them. I know the fact that they can produce beautiful products when they give a shit. But I am not paying someone like ACF again just hope they give a shit and ship me a kit that actually fit together.

The same goes with these hybrid twins. There are more honest vendors, shops, and fabricators out there. So why give money to these less trustworthy ones?

Again, sorry if I come across being a bit irritated. Just a bit tired from the BS that these vendors throw out on the few other forums where OP posted the same thread.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

[B]N54 has gotten so cheap and accessible these days, everyone is expecting +500whp out of only $1000 worth of mods.

Threads intertaining that idea are getting freiquent but quickly turn into help me please with mysterious misfire or low boost limp mode threads lol N54 is cheap due to two main reason: they made a lot of them and not very reliable even straight out the box. Add to that modding and tuning an n54 is cheap. Ecu tunes are pretty much free. Try that on another platform. The moddification makes the n54 even less reliable that brings us to repairs that are also cheap. Ebay is flooded with questionable turbos and injectors and a lot are attempting to DIY and think can become ASE certified mechnic from watching YouTube. So is crazy to expect good results here. Teenager on allowance would buy it and tune it:MHD, Ebay d0wn P1pes and IC, will mix e85 and pray that it won't go into limp mode due to misfire, failed turbos, dying fuel pump or combination. Then we see/read the failures. Well yeah....is to be expected. Then they will try to fix it on the cheap and sell it for cheap because isn't running right. All cars have problems. No doubt about it. But these are the reasons why n54 has bad reputation and appears to be little worse than actually is.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by buster84

I'm not trying to argue, but I'm confused about why you'd be so angry about aftermarket parts not covering labor costs if it fails. No matter what you buy they never cover labor ever, this goes for anything you buy at advanced auto parts, AutoZone ect...

Oh you are wrong here. I'm service writter. Shop has paid other shops and also received payments for other shops for labor when parts failed or weren't installed correctly. I have seen even towing bill being paid. For a light bulb of course not. But engine, transmission, turbos...Damn right. Or they will take you to court as you wanted to do with VTT.

[buster84]

Originally Posted by feuer

Oh you are wrong here. I'm service writter. Shop has paid other shops and also received payments for other shops for labor when parts failed or weren't installed correctly. I have seen even towing bill being paid. For a light bulb of course not. But engine, transmission, turbos...Damn right. Or they will take you to court as you wanted to do with VTT.

My problem was with the turbos, which are being fixed. I never once asked for labor.

As for labor costs being included that's only for cars purchased through dealers thst offer that, or aftermarket warranty. I never once had labor covered for anything. I bought a vortech supercharger for my old mustang a long time ago and the head unit broke, they repaired it for free but labor was never covered. That's the risk you get in the aftermarket area. Same goes for parts at AutoZone ect.. they will not pay labor for a broke part, but they will cover it inder warranty.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by buster84

My problem was with the turbos, which are being fixed. I never once asked for labor.

As for labor costs being included that's only for cars purchased through dealers thst offer that, or aftermarket warranty. I never once had labor covered for anything. I bought a vortech supercharger for my old mustang a long time ago and the head unit broke, they repaired it for free but labor was never covered. That's the risk you get in the aftermarket area. Same goes for parts at AutoZone ect.. they will not pay labor for a broke part, but they will cover it inder warranty.

We are moving away from the subject of this thread so I will try to explain myself as briefly as possible: depending on the shop, cost and work being performed, the labor would be covered too, regardless whether is OEM part, aftermarket part, authorized repair shop/dealer or independent. Example: you come to me to repaint your BMW. I do it. Paint start peeling, flaking, whatever after let say 3 month. Is concluded paint is defective. Should you pay me labor again? I will repaint the car for free and will ask for reimbursement for my labor from either who sold me the paint or who manufactured the paint or will go against my workmanship warranty/insurance. This doesn't always work of course. Shop will ignore you as ACF did to Cloud9blue. Like Ground Contorl did to me and ect. Business/shows often abuse the customer. This is reason why most law serves and proceed the customer for the most part. Who is Amazon, Ebay, PayPal or any Credit Card going to rather side with? Now let's continue about turbos.

[Rob@RBTurbo]

Originally Posted by spxxx

Until I hear from someone first hand that they're running 500whp on a dedicated track car with twins I'm staying stock and/or going bottom mount Garrett or other water cooled single this winter (for next year).

FWIW here is a testimonial from RB Next Gen Road Race customer since January, 2017:

"4/4/18

Hi Rob,

Yes we are still using a set of RB Turbos in our BMW 335i in events like the Bathurst 12hr race (see attached photos). The car runs in the Australian Production Championship also and the officials are very careful in checking the turbos remain unmodified ... big difference between standard and your RB Turbos. We find yours preform much better and with the adding of a performance tune in the car it really does make a big difference in the cars overall performance.
We have just got a new car in the shop, a BMW135i so will be needing a new set of your turbos for that soon.

Talk soon, Garry"

[lukasB]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

I would like to know any platform that can do +600whp with a stock 3.0L engine block and with any sort of reliability. N54 has gotten so cheap and accessible these days, everyone is expecting +500whp out of only $1000 worth of mods.

I'm sure you saw that coming

[Asbjorn]

Im actually trying to do a track-ready build based around the GC lites 2.0. Will be running them way below max. I am posting my experiences under the Z section on sp oolstreet.

[spxxx]

Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo

FWIW here is a testimonial from RB Next Gen Road Race customer since January, 2017:

"4/4/18

Hi Rob,

Yes we are still using a set of RB Turbos in our BMW 335i in events like the Bathurst 12hr race (see attached photos). The car runs in the Australian Production Championship also and the officials are very careful in checking the turbos remain unmodified ... big difference between standard and your RB Turbos. We find yours preform much better and with the adding of a performance tune in the car it really does make a big difference in the cars overall performance.
We have just got a new car in the shop, a BMW135i so will be needing a new set of your turbos for that soon.

Talk soon, Garry"

This is very cool, I found a quote about this car online (below). I'm still going with OEM + inlets and outlets today and likely ST in the future as I have a friend in the smog business haha. This car occasionally makes it on the road while testing and stuff but it's trailered to all tracks (except when I feel like driving to "Weathertech Racetrack" lol which is like 45min away)

""IT may not be an outright contender at the Bathurst 12 Hour this Sunday, but is the GWS Personnel BMW 335i Mount Panorama's most experienced and prolific enduro campaigner?

History shows that it has an enviable finishing record, having completed more laps and covered a greater distance than any other on Australia's most famous racetrack in this event.

The venerable coupe is lining up for its 10th Bathurst 12 Hour, and is expected to add to its tally of 2492 laps or 15,483 kilometres in practice, qualifying and racing. ""

[Rob@RBTurbo]

Originally Posted by spxxx

This is very cool, I found a quote about this car online (below). I'm still going with OEM + inlets and outlets today and likely ST in the future as I have a friend in the smog business haha. This car occasionally makes it on the road while testing and stuff but it's trailered to all tracks (except when I feel like driving to "Weathertech Racetrack" lol which is like 45min away)

""IT may not be an outright contender at the Bathurst 12 Hour this Sunday, but is the GWS Personnel BMW 335i Mount Panorama's most experienced and prolific enduro campaigner?

History shows that it has an enviable finishing record, having completed more laps and covered a greater distance than any other on Australia's most famous racetrack in this event.

The venerable coupe is lining up for its 10th Bathurst 12 Hour, and is expected to add to its tally of 2492 laps or 15,483 kilometres in practice, qualifying and racing. ""

Definitely cool and way more than we knew about the customer! Sounds like if he makes it through another season (or more) without any turbo servicing needs that would be one hell of a feat!

Rob

[spxxx]

Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo

Definitely cool and way more than we knew about the customer! Sounds like if he makes it through another season (or more) without any turbo servicing needs that would be one hell of a feat!

Rob

Do you have any info on their tune and setup? In a production car competition I'd assume they're limited to OEM power so maybe they're just running them at 8-9psi and 300whp or something.

[buster84]

Originally Posted by spxxx

This is very cool, I found a quote about this car online (below). I'm still going with OEM + inlets and outlets today and likely ST in the future as I have a friend in the smog business haha. This car occasionally makes it on the road while testing and stuff but it's trailered to all tracks (except when I feel like driving to "Weathertech Racetrack" lol which is like 45min away)

""IT may not be an outright contender at the Bathurst 12 Hour this Sunday, but is the GWS Personnel BMW 335i Mount Panorama's most experienced and prolific enduro campaigner?

History shows that it has an enviable finishing record, having completed more laps and covered a greater distance than any other on Australia's most famous racetrack in this event.

The venerable coupe is lining up for its 10th Bathurst 12 Hour, and is expected to add to its tally of 2492 laps or 15,483 kilometres in practice, qualifying and racing. ""

A smog guy is good, but just make sure that you don't get pulled over by a trained street racing cop, or worse an inexperienced one that acts like he knows it all which happened to me In 2012 . The cop gave me a ticket that sent me to the referee and wasn't allowed to drive on the street until it passed because of my vortech supercharger. The cop said the car was way to loud and must have been more modified (it was heavily, stroked engine, cams, heads ect...) and thankfully I got a referee in Vacaville who loved mustang and was like I see the carb number for the supercharger and signed off on it. He also said that he loved my aftermarket cams after he did caught me off guard lol. I got lucky that time, but I was still forced to pay the stupid ticket even though I passed without any failures. After that I got pulled over again by the same cop and he was like, I thought I told you that you can't drive on the road I'm towing your car, then I handed him the paperwork and he was like wtf, how's that possible and drove off and never messed with me again. I ended up selling the car because I was getting to old to mess with that type of crap. If I had known I was moving to FL 2 years later I would have kept it

Oh well, lesson learned. Just be cautious if you go single out there or when going catless because CA has random off the road smog checks too. I got caught in one up in the Sacramento area, but I was stock then.

[spxxx]

Originally Posted by buster84

A smog guy is good, but just make sure that you don't get pulled over by a trained street racing cop, or worse an inexperienced one that acts like he knows it all which happened to me In 2012 . The cop gave me a ticket that sent me to the referee and wasn't allowed to drive on the street until it passed because of my vortech supercharger. The cop said the car was way to loud and must have been more modified (it was heavily, stroked engine, cams, heads ect...) and thankfully I got a referee in Vacaville who loved mustang and was like I see the carb number for the supercharger and signed off on it. He also said that he loved my aftermarket cams after he did caught me off guard lol. I got lucky that time, but I was still forced to pay the stupid ticket even though I passed without any failures. After that I got pulled over again by the same cop and he was like, I thought I told you that you can't drive on the road I'm towing your car, then I handed him the paperwork and he was like wtf, how's that possible and drove off and never messed with me again. I ended up selling the car because I was getting to old to mess with that type of crap. If I had known I was moving to FL 2 years later I would have kept it

Oh well, lesson learned. Just be cautious if you go single out there or when going catless because CA has random off the road smog checks too. I got caught in one up on Sacramento, but I was stock then.

By driving on road for testing I mean like 20min at a time once a month max. My car also has stock exhaust and is very quiet.

[buster84]

Originally Posted by spxxx

By driving on road for testing I mean like 20min at a time once a month max. My car also has stock exhaust and is very quiet.

Wow just 20 miles a month, why are you registering it for the road and dealing with smog and insurance for just 20 miles? You use that money what ever you want? That's what I would have done had I had a track only car, but I probably wouldn't have been able to stop my self from wanting to go cruising in it which is why I never went that route.

[spxxx]

Originally Posted by buster84

Wow just 20 miles a month, why are you registering it for the road and dealing with smog and insurance for just 20 miles? You use that money what ever you want? That's what I would have done had I had a track only car, but I probably wouldn't have been able to stop my self from wanting to go cruising in it which is why I never went that route.

Maybe I'm exaggerating slightly but going forward that's what I envision, the car had reg from when I drove it on weekends and stuff but even so, it's only an extra $25/mo to add a car to my insurance policy and registration on a 10yr old car isn't bad. It's worth having the option to drive it on the street IMO.

[dublin14]

At the end of the day the biggest focus on any track setup besides suspension and brakes and getting lighter is always cooling. Oil coolers, proper air flow to the engine ect is far more important vs if you make 400whp or 450whp.

[spxxx]

Originally Posted by dublin14

At the end of the day the biggest focus on any track setup besides suspension and brakes and getting lighter is always cooling. Oil coolers, proper air flow to the engine ect is far more important vs if you make 400whp or 450whp.

Yep, I have two cars and the 1er may become a street car in the next 1-2yrs so it'd be cool to have a super high power street car but run it at lower power on track. I personally run a very conservative tune on track most of the time (stage 1 or 2 so 340-375whp).

I'm in a cool situation where I'm getting new turbos for free this week so I wanted to see if it was worth going upgraded or OEM.

I'm going OEM btw

[TemjinX2]

Originally Posted by buster84

A smog guy is good, but just make sure that you don't get pulled over by a trained street racing cop, or worse an inexperienced one that acts like he knows it all which happened to me In 2012 . The cop gave me a ticket that sent me to the referee and wasn't allowed to drive on the street until it passed because of my vortech supercharger. The cop said the car was way to loud and must have been more modified (it was heavily, stroked engine, cams, heads ect...) and thankfully I got a referee in Vacaville who loved mustang and was like I see the carb number for the supercharger and signed off on it. He also said that he loved my aftermarket cams after he did caught me off guard lol. I got lucky that time, but I was still forced to pay the stupid ticket even though I passed without any failures. After that I got pulled over again by the same cop and he was like, I thought I told you that you can't drive on the road I'm towing your car, then I handed him the paperwork and he was like wtf, how's that possible and drove off and never messed with me again. I ended up selling the car because I was getting to old to mess with that type of crap. If I had known I was moving to FL 2 years later I would have kept it

Oh well, lesson learned. Just be cautious if you go single out there or when going catless because CA has random off the road smog checks too. I got caught in one up in the Sacramento area, but I was stock then.

CA cops like to hand out tickets to pay for their salaries. They like profile people, that mostly likely won't fight the tickets or are driven by most likely younger drive that doesnt know how to fight tickets or would mostly like simply just pay the ticket.

[Rob@RBTurbo]

Originally Posted by spxxx

Do you have any info on their tune and setup? In a production car competition I'd assume they're limited to OEM power so maybe they're just running them at 8-9psi and 300whp or something.

Don't know much about it, he did mention having some open flash tuning though. I'm sure he is running them responsibly, ie. ~18psi rather than ~32psi.

Rob

[dublin14]

Originally Posted by spxxx

Yep, I have two cars and the 1er may become a street car in the next 1-2yrs so it'd be cool to have a super high power street car but run it at lower power on track. I personally run a very conservative tune on track most of the time (stage 1 or 2 so 340-375whp).

I'm in a cool situation where I'm getting new turbos for free this week so I wanted to see if it was worth going upgraded or OEM.

I'm going OEM btw

Best oil cooler you can get and air flow to the cooler is important to keep oil temps in check. Look at any real deal race car and ducting/cooling is the main focus for the engine as well as brakes. I dont have much experience with turbo cars on the track but even with my experience racing 600+whp purpose built NA Vettes, cooling is key. At 370whp and light as possible you will have a very fast car. Track days are best days.

[Rob@RBTurbo]

Originally Posted by dublin14

Best oil cooler and air flow to the cooler is important to keep oil temps in check. Look at any real deal race car and ducting/cooling is the main focus for the engine as well as brakes. I've never had much experience with turbo cars on the track but even with my experience racing 700+hp purpose built Vettes, cooling is key.

Agree. We actually have some CNC'd oil cooler/external t-stat bracketry in the works to support a modestly upgraded Setrab core- and a big focus is keeping the oil cooler core compatibility with the OEM ducting. (The Oil cooler bracket in pics is prototype not CNC'd yet)

There is not going to be some big claims of concept being the BIGGEST and GOOD FOR MOST POWA EVA nor are we going to do a thesis on it, but some obvious tasteful improvements and efficiency in design is there over OE along with duct retention and ability to add an external Oil temp Thermostat into the mix with a very nice fit and finish.

The Setrab core is nearly twice the thickness and has 4 more rows than OE- but some trimming/clearancing to the duct and headlight bar plastics will be required for fitment.

Rob