[dreyo27]

Originally Posted by SM335i

Not even the S55?



True, I can't believe the N54 still hasn't gotten the public recognition that it deserves. I feel like there are many things that still need to be upgraded. Look at the GTR, the market has every bolt for upgrade for those things



S55 coupled to the amazing cooling and Carbon driveshaft and all the other bells and whistles that it has is what makes it a king..

I agree. But i dont think that air to water inter-cooler is that amazing. It wouldn't be to difficult to make an N54 do air to water intercooler, however if thats your goal is to cool charge air with water, then just run Meth LOL.
What makes the S55 amazing is the High flowing turbos for stock size, essentially what BMW did was take all the things that make N54 great, add all the Technology and reliability from the N55, and put it in a capable chassis with an LSD ETC.

The B58 is just next evolution of the N55 and I wont think Bmw will ever make a true replacement of the N54.

The main reason we got so lucky with the N54 is because it was overbuilt as BMW was just re-entering the Turbocharged game and they didin't want major failures and didn't have enough data. From a financial perspective it was wasteful of them to put two turbos that can flow 20+psi when the goal was just 8 PSI, or the forged internals that weren't necessary to hold a measly 300HP.
Thats why they fixed all those things on the n55 when they had the reliability data and realized that the internals and turbos weren't the weak points, but HPFP and injectors were.

[Brule]

S55 has been out for 2 years and someone's doing 10.2s.

Yes the price bracket!
Cheapest one in Australia at the moment is 128k and there all auto!
I'm talking 2nd hand also.

[SM335i]

Originally Posted by dreyo27

I agree. But i dont think that air to water inter-cooler is that amazing. It wouldn't be to difficult to make an N54 do air to water intercooler, however if thats your goal is to cool charge air with water, then just run Meth LOL.
What makes the S55 amazing is the High flowing turbos for stock size, essentially what BMW did was take all the things that make N54 great, add all the Technology and reliability from the N55, and put it in a capable chassis with an LSD ETC.

The B58 is just next evolution of the N55 and I wont think Bmw will ever make a true replacement of the N54.

The main reason we got so lucky with the N54 is because it was overbuilt as BMW was just re-entering the Turbocharged game and they didin't want major failures and didn't have enough data. From a financial perspective it was wasteful of them to put two turbos that can flow 20+psi when the goal was just 8 PSI, or the forged internals that weren't necessary to hold a measly 300HP.
Thats why they fixed all those things on the n55 when they had the reliability data and realized that the internals and turbos weren't the weak points, but HPFP and injectors were.

Very good points. Look at the M4 GTS its running water injection, which is old news here. I feel like they learn from the forums sometimes lol. I also think that BMW knew that the next M3/M4 was going to be turbocharged, so they sort of did a test run with the N54 in a 3 series, so it was over-engineered for just a regular 3er. They wanted to come in strong into the market and they really did.

[Jklad]

I think they over engineered some components and fell short on many components as well. At least the engine internals are pretty solid. It's too bad the gaskets and everything around it falls apart far to early. But this may just be an overall Bmw problem.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by Yournamehere90

What do you mean it's bot sleeved? Are you saying that the cylinder walls are bare aluminum? That doesn't sound right.

Edit: I read that it has an alloy coating. I'd be scared of running aluminum walls at high power levels.

It (the 55) has an alloy liner - the 54s cylinder design is really impressive and over-done from an engineering standpoint. They cast the block with small indentations throughout the cylinders and water jacket. Then, they spray an iron liner to fill the indentations and create what is effectively a sleeved block from the factory.

Some folks are seeing a bit of cylinder deformation at big (800WHP) power but short of that, things like cylinder walk (which tend to kill most open decks) have been purely speculation.

It's tremendous design.

Originally Posted by SM335i

Yes, on the B58, Meth was need at *80% to create that power.



Are you talking about the B58? Because the N54 also needs meth on stockers to achieve anything close to 500 whp, correct?



The N54 only had a forged crank correct?

The 54 needs fuel and air to make 500WHP, my point was that it can be done safely, without the use of four or five meth jets spraying into the charge piping. To get results on the B58 right now, you need to push tuning and fueling into a place that is both dangerous and rudimentary.

The 54 has a forged crank and forged rods. Cast pistons. The pistons and rings tend to be what let go first.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by Brule

S55 has been out for 2 years and someone's doing 10.2s.

Yes the price bracket!
Cheapest one in Australia at the moment is 128k and there all auto!
I'm talking 2nd hand also.

It's doing deep 10s because it gets out of the hole in a hurry. I'm not aware of any DCT N54s making big power and going to the track consistently. The demand and desire is with the 55 for sure; but that doesn't make it the better motor. I believe the WR trap on the S55 is mid 130s?

It's a very, very impressive car. But I don't believe it's all that impressive a motor relative to the 54; some iterative improvements (AtW intercooler, valvetronic)

[Ozzie335i]

I get a kick out of N54 guys, circle jerking it's superiority, and making excuses for otherwise. On the street 500 + whp is fast, regardless of how you get there. For real power, go with an LSx.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by Ozzie335i

I get a kick out of N54 guys, circle jerking it's superiority, and making excuses for otherwise. On the street 500 + whp is fast, regardless of how you get there. For real power, go with an LSx.

If you'd prefer i'll say it more clearly - The 54 is a better motor than most anything BMW has made in the last decade. I suppose they were still making the S54 in the clownshoe cars so if you want to argue that, I won't die on a hill against it. The 65 and 85 have greater theoretical potential but they're both made of glass and have substantial oiling and bearing clearance issues. The 55 is 'newer' but as to the actual motor, i'm failing to see how it's an appreciably superior design. Valvetronic is a nice addition.

If I wanted an LS i'd get an LS. Asinine comparison.

[V8bait]

135Pats nailed it. The B58 is better at being cheap to produce though, so BMW wins there, and it's a nice little motor. I'd probably prefer it over the N55. But comparison to the technological showpiece that was the N54 is a nah. N54 has plenty room for improvement but from the piezo injectors (not solenoid) to the application specific design of the motor being over engineered (vs a modular design mantra) to the fully electric coolant system, BMW went backwards in design moving forward with the B series.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by V8bait

135Pats nailed it. The B58 is better at being cheap to produce though, so BMW wins there, and it's a nice little motor. I'd probably prefer it over the N55. But comparison to the technological showpiece that was the N54 is a nah. N54 has plenty room for improvement but from the piezo injectors (not solenoid) to the application specific design of the motor being over engineered (vs a modular design mantra) to the fully electric coolant system, BMW went backwards in design moving forward with the B series.

I didn't even remember to mention the piezoelectrics and how ridiculously capable and precise they are for factory injectors. Great call.

Almost everything annoying or 'wrong' with the N54 has to do with peripheral hardware or tuning issues; the motor itself is outstanding.

[sA x sKy]

Originally Posted by dreyo27

Ok saying that the N54 is german 2jz is wrong as the 2JZ-GTE is actually German LOL.

Yes its been proven that crank rods and pistons are forged as well as the cylinder liners as well if i remember correctly.
Thats why we don't have to have a built engine to get 900 crank HP.

Yournamehere90 ment Not sleeved. meaning assuming the pistons/rods hold up, you would still have to sleeve the block on the B58...

Just think back to the Horsepowerfreaks stage 3 kit for the S54.

Know your own platform before you hail the N54 lmao

N54 pistons are not forged. They're hypereutectic Pistons by Mahle. Only thing forged is the crank and I believe the rods.

And for all you saying S55 is not as great...

S55 is in low 10's in less than 2 years. How long did it take for the N54 to do that again? S55 already has two built motors. 800whp is going to be a joke not to mention 900+

[theweebabySeamus]

Originally Posted by V8bait

135Pats nailed it. The B58 is better at being cheap to produce though, so BMW wins there, and it's a nice little motor. I'd probably prefer it over the N55. But comparison to the technological showpiece that was the N54 is a nah. N54 has plenty room for improvement but from the piezo injectors (not solenoid) to the application specific design of the motor being over engineered (vs a modular design mantra) to the fully electric coolant system, BMW went backwards in design moving forward with the B series.

Lol, hope that's sarcasm regarding the injectors and cooling system being superior.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by theweebabySeamus

Lol, hope that's sarcasm regarding the injectors and cooling system being superior.

There's no question the factory injectors on the 54 are more capable, with a higher ceiling of injection pressure and broader injection window. The S55's are solenoid, no?

They're grotesquely expensive which is a separate matter. But nothing beats piezoelectric.

I wouldn't put forth the cooling system as a strength of any modern BMW. They all stink if we're being honest

[V8bait]

Originally Posted by theweebabySeamus

Lol, hope that's sarcasm regarding the injectors and cooling system being superior.

No I'm dead serious, pats explained it too. The piezo injectors have incredible versatility. You can control much more than just duration, you can control how far they open as well, you can basically control their entire spray pattern. And they cycle insanely fast, and provide feedback that can be monitored to adjust and assess their functionality that solenoids can't touch. Now reliability and cost are another story.

Similarly the electric cooling system allows for so much control and versatility. You can run the coolant pump output on demand without a thermostat, so it's much more efficient, and you can run it when the motor is off to cool the turbos once oil drains and to more evenly cool the block. Reliability, capacity, and cost, again not ideal, but that's not what I was referring to.

B58 is a much cheaper design, in part for reliability, but with modern BMW designs I feel they are more interested in bottom line and in-warranty repairs, so don't expect the more traditional hardware to last significantly longer.

[theweebabySeamus]

Originally Posted by V8bait

No I'm dead serious, pats explained it too. The piezo injectors have incredible versatility. You can control much more than just duration, you can control how far they open as well, you can basically control their entire spray pattern. And they cycle insanely fast, and provide feedback that can be monitored to adjust and assess their functionality that solenoids can't touch. Now reliability and cost are another story.

Similarly the electric cooling system allows for so much control and versatility. You can run the coolant pump output on demand without a thermostat, so it's much more efficient, and you can run it when the motor is off to cool the turbos once oil drains and to more evenly cool the block. Reliability, capacity, and cost, again not ideal, but that's not what I was referring to.

B58 is a much cheaper design, in part for reliability, but with modern BMW designs I feel they are more interested in bottom line and in-warranty repairs, so don't expect the more traditional hardware to last significantly longer.

You hit the nail on the head- reliability (and cost) is another story. The fact that replacing them is almost a given on these cars is substantially more important than the design and function. If they're predisposed to failure, as so many things on this car are, then I'm not sure there's much relevance to how flexible they are in functionality. As far as the cooling system, it's another great idea poorly implemented. With as many water pump failures (in as many ways they can fail) I would never consider this to have a good cooling system. All the above doesn't even touch on the oil-facing gaskets that seem to be allergic to oil.

That being said, I don't consider the injectors to be part of the engine when I say it's a great engine. To quote my friend on the subject, the N54 is a much better engine than the N55, it's just that everything bolted to it is worse.

[bradsm87]

Originally Posted by theweebabySeamus

You hit the nail on the head- reliability (and cost) is another story. The fact that replacing them is almost a given on these cars is substantially more important than the design and function. If they're predisposed to failure, as so many things on this car are, then I'm not sure there's much relevance to how flexible they are in functionality. As far as the cooling system, it's another great idea poorly implemented. With as many water pump failures (in as many ways they can fail) I would never consider this to have a good cooling system. All the above doesn't even touch on the oil-facing gaskets that seem to be allergic to oil.

That being said, I don't consider the injectors to be part of the engine when I say it's a great engine. To quote my friend on the subject, the N54 is a much better engine than the N55, it's just that everything bolted to it is worse.

Our electric cooling system is awesome and well worth the water pump replacement cost every 50,000 miles or so. It stays off until the engine is warmed up, it targets different coolant temps based on conditions, it doesn't cavitate at high RPM, it works completely independently to engine RPM. It's just great. Soon we will have more control over various cooling modes too.

[theweebabySeamus]

Originally Posted by bradsm87

Our electric cooling system is awesome and well worth the water pump replacement cost every 50,000 miles or so. It stays off until the engine is warmed up, it targets different coolant temps based on conditions, it doesn't cavitate at high RPM, it works completely independently to engine RPM. It's just great. Soon we will have more control over various cooling modes too.

I'd be curious to know how much any of that impacted the actual performance of the vehicle. The fact the WPs crap out so early when they're not even running half the time was always beyond me.

[Jozy]

Originally Posted by theweebabySeamus

I'd be curious to know how much any of that impacted the actual performance of the vehicle. The fact the WPs crap out so early when they're not even running half the time was always beyond me.

i guess the term 'use it or lose it' applies here

[TrollToll]

The water pump is definitely running more than half the time. Also, it's not like they have an expiration date. Some fail and some don't. On one car I've got 100,000 miles with no issue, on the other the pump just failed at 90,000.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by theweebabySeamus

I'd be curious to know how much any of that impacted the actual performance of the vehicle. The fact the WPs crap out so early when they're not even running half the time was always beyond me.

On a stock car I don't think it provides a substantial advantage, but that's purely anecdotal on my part. The gains in efficiency and control are probably only realized as you elevate the demands on the motor. Having total control over the cooling tables is hugely helpful for folks pushing the envelope.

Just to be clear, for a stock motor there's no question i'd prefer an S55. All day. I had thought this was specifically in the context of maximum performance and potential.

[SM335i]

My waterpump died at 93,000 and i was surprised how long it lasted. The waterpump was fairly cheap (compared to say a Lexus) and it was pretty easy to replace and I have xDrive. Also at 93,000 this engine runs like its brand new.

[theweebabySeamus]

Originally Posted by Yournamehere90

The water pump is definitely running more than half the time. Also, it's not like they have an expiration date. Some fail and some don't. On one car I've got 100,000 miles with no issue, on the other the pump just failed at 90,000.

Of course some fail and some don't, if 75% failed at 50k miles hopefully there would be a recall. But it's uncanny how many fail and how early they fail. Even the manner in which they fail. Lost coolant, fans on, codes accompanying or not. Odds are, it's the water pump.

Like yours, mine failed around 90k miles and it's the only car I've owned that has lost one that early.