[djgandy]

I'm reserved on these too. There is a lot of false accounting with these things. They are zero emission from the exhaust, but the batteries are far from that in both production and disposal.
There is the potential £10k service, I wonder what this will do the used prices come 5+ years of age.
Then there is the scale-ability of batteries. What does a world that requires 100 million car batteries per year look like from an economics point of view? Is that feasible?

The energy density of batteries is pretty awful in reality, and when you look at the UK power grid energy mix it looks even worse.

I get electric vehicles for small lightweight vehicles, but building something that weighs 2 tonnes is hardly green.

I think Tesla is just a company taking advantage of poorly implemented government subsidies. Governments shouldn't be subsidizing toys for the rich IMO, which is all these are currently.

[AWSAWS]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

Have you ordered one? If so very envious

If I was to order a new one, it would be in Blue with cream leather, pretty much same colour combo as my old E90 335i. In 70S trim it comes out at a shade over £56K with current prices, which is ban on budget for me.

The looks things is very individual and every one have their own option. Personally I thought the worst part of the E90 was it's looks - probably the most boring/common looking car I've owned, than that's one of the reasons I loved it so much. For me I'll take substance over style every time .

Looking at this image, I may have actually seen 2 and mistaken them both times for Maseratis.

I suppose I just need to marry a doctor to afford one then Gangzoom

I wouldn't mind installing electric motors in my 335 and powering them from an giant alternator. A hybrid like LeFerrari

[djgandy]

Originally Posted by AWSAWS

Looking at this image, I may have actually seen 2 and mistaken them both times for Maseratis.

I suppose I just need to marry a doctor to afford one then Gangzoom

I wouldn't mind installing electric motors in my 335 and powering them from an giant alternator. A hybrid like LeFerrari

Get an ActiveHybrid 3 then ;-)

[gangzoom]

I have to say I do understand people's reservations about spendings £50K on brand new tech. It's one of the reasons I signed up to a very cheap Nissan Leaf deal for the next 18 months.

I'm under no impressions a £50K+ car is never going to be cheap. The fact is I'm 100% sold on the advantage of EV drivetrain compared to petrol/Diesel engines. I was pretty uncomfortable with spending £50k+ on any conventional car, hence I kept my 335 for 4 years and was planning to keep it for a lot longer. BUT the I'm so convinced by EV technology when my Leaf contract expires the hardest decision I'll have to make is if a £70K 'P' version of the Model S is worth it over the £50K base spec.

Judging by how many Model S are selling, and Tesla's year on year growth of more than 50%, I'm not the only one convinced by the tech

[Kerr]

I'd love a shot in one to see what they are really like.

It's just a guessing game for me at the moment.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by Kerr

I'd love a shot in one to see what they are really like.

It's just a guessing game for me at the moment.

I haven't test driven the Model S on purpose, I know I'm an idiot when it comes to money and cars, so I'm not going to even sit in one till am 100% ready to buy, which will be next year Xmas.

But for anyone who doubts EVs, I really do recommend test driving one, any EV, even some thing as slow as the Leaf. The things I use to crave on my old 335i, no throttle lag, silky smooth gear changes, totally linear torque curve, an EV drivetrain delivers all those things 100 times BETTER than the N54 engine+auto box. The only critisium is lack of noise, which actually 95% of the time when I'm just using the car to get from A to B is a good thing.

The cost benefit , environmental arguments for EVs I'm actually NOT bothered by, but if I can run an EV of free electricity generated by using solar panels+home battery pack, than why not?? We are likely to move house again in the next 5 years (The car fund is ring fenced - So to protect it from turning into a Kitchen fund ), and near us a new development actually has solar panels built into the roof!! So if we buy another new build with solar panels built it, the only additional cost needed will batteries, which are getting cheaper quickly, and than we can essentiall go off-grid, at which point our energy costs will plummet.

Anyways I'll see how things go on the EV development front before jumping in with a stupid wedge of cash, but with Tesla due to announce the Model X, and the prospect of a even quicker P100D next year, in my mind I've already spent the money, it's just a case of waiting till the finance deal runs out the current car

[AWSAWS]

Gangzoom, you are absolutely right about electric being the best drive mechanism in the near and possibly distant future. The instant power and torque is unmatched by any current internal combustion engine. When all that valuable energy goes almost straight out of the exhaust it is a big red flag. I recall numbers of around 12 and 15% for the usual efficiency of a petrol engine. That may have improved but it's still a terrible waste of the majority of the energy.

Energy storage is still a big hurdle holding electric vehicles back. It would be great if petrol stations basically had banks of batteries. All cars using the same power pack where you basically swap a charged one for your empty one and drive off. It would need to be government funded probably. Either that or some form of induction in our roads to constantly charge cars as they drive.

[djgandy]

Originally Posted by AWSAWS

Gangzoom, you are absolutely right about electric being the best drive mechanism in the near and possibly distant future. The instant power and torque is unmatched by any current internal combustion engine. When all that valuable energy goes almost straight out of the exhaust it is a big red flag. I recall numbers of around 12 and 15% for the usual efficiency of a petrol engine. That may have improved but it's still a terrible waste of the majority of the energy.

Energy storage is still a big hurdle holding electric vehicles back. It would be great if petrol stations basically had banks of batteries. All cars using the same power pack where you basically swap a charged one for your empty one and drive off. It would need to be government funded probably. Either that or some form of induction in our roads to constantly charge cars as they drive.

Petrol engines are around 30-35% efficient. Modern diesels are around 45-50% efficient.

An electric car is only as efficient as its charge source, so probably around 40%. If we went completely nuclear then it would be great, but our biggest fuel is coal, the dirtiest fuel of all.

[AWSAWS]

I can't find where I left my antimatter car which is 100% efficient...

Yes energy storage is still a hurdle and all electrical circuits contain resistance. There have been some pretty interesting advances. Doping with common elements to make batteries hold more charge. Using viruses to create better designs and graphene. The efficiency of solar panels is also increasing with better absorption.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by djgandy

Petrol engines are around 30-35% efficient. Modern diesels are around 45-50% efficient.

An electric car is only as efficient as its charge source, so probably around 40%. If we went completely nuclear then it would be great, but our biggest fuel is coal, the dirtiest fuel of all.

The most efficient diesel engines have a thermal efficiency of less than 40% at optimum range, hence Toyota use an 'electronic' CVT box in their hybrids. The electric motor offers nearly the same efficiency at 1 rpm as it does at 10,000 rpm, hence you dog need a gearbox.

A liter of petrol/diesel has roughly 10 kWh worth of energy.

A 60 liter tank of petrol therefore has about 600 kWh worth of energy.

I use to get 350 miles max of out of my 335i in daily use, that equates to 0.6 miles per kWh

My Leaf has 21 kWh of usable battery. I get 5 miles per kWh (100 miles range), that x10 (TEN) more energy efficiency than my old 335i.

A Tesla Model S with a 81 kWh of usable battery has a real life range of 250 miles, that's 3 miles per kWh, or x5 (FIVE) more efficiency than my old 335i.

Put it another way, to achieve the same energy efficiency as a Tesla at 3 miles per kWh, a car with a 60 liter tank of fuel will have to do 1800 miles per tank or 120 mpg+, that's in a car what weighs 2 tons and has 400 BHP+ (85D)!!!

Moving electricity from the grid to the battery is >95% efficient. You will loss efficiency moving stored solar energy from a home battery pack to the car, but it's unlike to be a huge loss (though I don't know the exact figure).

Hence given I drive less than 15 miles a day, I only use 3 kWh of electricity in the Leaf or 5 kWh of electricity in a Tesla. Even an averaged sized solar panel in the UK generate an average of 3.3 KW per day in the middle of winter to 13 KW per day in the summer, a decent sized solar system + 20-30 KW of home battery storage will be enough for our daily needs. It may not be 100% 'off grid' in winter, but still will reduce the overall demand on the system as a whole....Actually given solar systems essentially provide 'free' electricity any losses in efficiency is negligible.

But as I've said, the efficient benefits of EVs versus petrol/diesel cars isn't the main driver for me giving up on the internal combustion engine. It's purely the performance advantage EVs offer that excites me the most

Depending on how good the Model X is, I may still put done a pre-order for one. I've never been interested in monster SUVs before, but a 2.5 ton car car that can accelerate to 0-60 in 3.3 seconds, and cost next to nothing to refuel.....It's pointless, it's a waste of money, it's certainly not 'green' but it may be too tempting to ignore

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by djgandy

An electric car is only as efficient as its charge source, so probably around 40%. If we went completely nuclear then it would be great, but our biggest fuel is coal, the dirtiest fuel of all.

Actual efficiency of solar panel are currently at below 20%, once you take into account inverter energy use/battery charging that figure is much lower. BUT given solar energy is 'free' absolute efficiency isn't 100% important, cost is also vital. 5 years ago a 2.6 KW system cost £10k+, now a 4kW system is just over £5k. That couple with improving efficiency, means solar is becoming an economically viable way to generate power.

Interestingly photosynthesis is only 5% efficient, given virtually all life on this planet finds its carbon source from plants, we are getting close to been able to tap into the pretty much limitless energy source that is the Sun. Don't forget the petrol/diesel your pouring into your car wouldn't be there without solar energy.

[Sparky68]

http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/07/24/wh...-model-s-p90d/

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by Sparky68

http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/07/24/wh...-model-s-p90d/

That list of cars is nothing more than fantasy to 99.95% of the public (and my self), the P90D L at £90K is expensive, but a i8 starts at £104K, and by the time you spec up a i3 your over £40k!!!

Add in a few years of depreciation and I suspect a used P90D L will be with-in reach to more than a few people on this forum....Given the general fascination/debate with 0-60 - 1/4 times, meth, upgraded turbos etc on here, I cannot see how anyone on here isn't excited about the prospect of been owning/driving a car that gets with-in 0.2 seconds of a $1million Veyron's 0-60 time....When was the last time you pulled along side a Veyron at the traffic lights .

But unlike a Veyron this is a family saloon that you can transport your whole horde of sprogglings in, do the shopping, and cost you less than £10 to refuel at the convince of own home at night whilst you sleep....I cannot wait to get mine, just such damn shame I'm clever enough to work in a job where I can earn enough for an afford a brand new one right now

[briers]

my p85d is in a shipping container somewhere, on its way. The xfr goes at the end of this month and the tesla turns up in september sometime. Couldn't be more excited. The firs thing i have done since i paid for it is request the L upgrade to take it to 800bhp and 2.8 seconds. I am awaiting info on this.

Realistically, i will rarely use the power. In fact this is my simple family / daily runabout. I couldn't find a better car.

With regards to the way it looks, people who think it looks like a premium kia must have shit in their eyes. Whilst i on the other hand might be wearing rose tinted glasses. Its not a head turner but its certainly not jap box ugly. It looks different and it looks nice, nice enough that when you walk up to it you think, i'm driving this today and then you get in it and it drives better than pretty much anything else for the majority of my journeys.

If a looker is what you are after you can always go bmw i8, which i also looked at. But in reality, its very ostentatious, you need wrap around sunglasses, gelled hair, big muscles and a skin tight super dry t-shirt to drive it, so the maintenance factor is high. There is no space for adults in the back and growing kids get cramped, no boot space and its not that fast. 120K for a futuristic, scissors door bmw is an awful lot.

I stuck with the tesla and a hardcore exige-s for the fun. Best of both.

As for charging. If you have no interest in one you won't spent the time to think about charging. In reality, your car gets to 100% full each night while you sleep. In most cases that covers you for several days of driving and normal daily road trips you take with kids.

It's also quite easy to pass superchargers, even at this early stage on long road trips. 20 min piss and coffee break and you have 200 miles put back in.

Quite a lot of car parks, hotels, shopping centres and towns have electric charge points. More often than not, they are close to the entrance, sometimes they are free to park and of course free to charge. You usually cover your mileage there with a few hours of free charging.

Tesla have installed 5 new superchargers in the past 4-6 weeks in the UK with more to come.

Nobody has to like these, but i found it hard not to. Best daily i ever drove. I hope us early adopters keep the flame alive for future development of cheaper more mass market electric cars, as they really are great cars with no traditional electric car compromises.

[mob17]

Just curious, whats the steering like compared to the new BMWs, which IMO is not good as you get no feedback!

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by briers

my p85d is in a shipping container somewhere, on its way.

Lucky git

Scary bit is, the P90D is apparently the result of a Tesla trying to develop a 1 million mile drive train - so it was the by product of trying to improve reliability.

I cannot imaging just how quick these things are going to get when they start to focus on performance!!

[AWSAWS]

I'd love to know about the crash tests performed on these cars. A petrol spill is bad enough but try putting out a lithium fueled fire!!!

Now scale that up for a 800HP crash

[AWSAWS]

Just seen this:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/...-catches-fire-

Debris hitting the car, caused the fire.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by AWSAWS

Just seen this:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/...-catches-fire-

Debris hitting the car, caused the fire.

I think you need to go and check your facts before posting rubbish.

You do realise the Model S is one of THE SAFEST cars ever tested in national crash test programs. When the US crash department tried to crush the car with it flipped over (which incidentally they found pretty much impossible to do due to its low centre of gravity), at 4G the machine designed to crush cars BROKE before the Model S did....The Model S is only one of Three cars on sale today that has scored 5/5 in NCAP and the top American NHTSA rating.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/news...ting-equipment

As for fires and batteries, Tesla have added a titanium shield to all their cars they have produced. You can now run over a concrete block or alternator without it damaging the battery....You want to try and run over an alternator or concrete block in a 3 series BMW and see what happens to the exhaust/transmission tunnel

...oh and clearly no petrol/diesel BMW has ever caught fire

Safety is actually one of the biggest strength of the Model S versus ALL other cars, even other EVs. I certainly would rather ferry my family around in a Model S compared to anything else on sale today if safety was my only priority.

[AirAndre335i]

Musk is a genius!
Just do a little research on his future plans and you'll see how it is all coming together.

I do not know about people out of london… but Teslas are so common. There are at least 18 on my road now and everyone loves them.

I wasn't sure about the look at first, but i have really come around to them now!

Do not even question whether electric is better or not etc… It certainly is in every single way and at the rate technology is improving, it will be where we expect it to be in no time.

Powering them etc… well that's all happening right now.

[mob17]

One of my concerns would be the steering, as i'd assume it's electric, and BMW have done a shitty job on electric steering

[AWSAWS]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

I think you need to go and check your facts before posting rubbish.

You do realise the Model S is one of THE SAFEST cars ever tested in national crash test programs. When the US crash department tried to crush the car with it flipped over (which incidentally they found pretty much impossible to do due to its low centre of gravity), at 4G the machine designed to crush cars BROKE before the Model S did....The Model S is only one of Three cars on sale today that has scored 5/5 in NCAP and the top American NHTSA rating.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/news...ting-equipment

As for fires and batteries, Tesla have added a titanium shield to all their cars they have produced. You can now run over a concrete block or alternator without it damaging the battery....You want to try and run over an alternator or concrete block in a 3 series BMW and see what happens to the exhaust/transmission tunnel

...oh and clearly no petrol/diesel BMW has ever caught fire

Safety is actually one of the biggest strength of the Model S versus ALL other cars, even other EVs. I certainly would rather ferry my family around in a Model S compared to anything else on sale today if safety was my only priority.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings.