[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by FL335

It's really the guides' who are in the shit. They lured the lion out of the park and had the dentist shoot him. The dentist was/is some dispirit who paid these guys 55k to "hunt" the lion. For Pete's sake, the lion had a collar on him....protected, etc...

I DK how someone could "hunt" some beautiful cat like that but th guides should suffer the wrath. I don't think the dispirit dentist knew to the extent of what was happening. The guy is screwed for a while, regardless.

Maybe your opinion will change after seeing the below. It appears he's not so ignorant or innocent.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/29/africa...e-lion-killed/

"Cecil's killing doesn't appear to be the first time Palmer has gotten into trouble while hunting.

A man by the same name and age, and from the same town, illegally killed a black bear in Wisconsin several years ago, according to court documents.

That individual pleaded guilty to making false statements knowingly to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and was sentenced to one year on probation and ordered to pay a fine of nearly $3,000, records show.

A New York Times article in 2009 that profiled Palmer and his hunting methods said he had served a year of probation over the false statements case."

[UncleWede]

I've never heard of Cecil.

The images of him before being shot I could not detect any collar under that mane

He paid local guides who are supposed to know the rules/boundaries, and he depended on them.

He has offered to help the Zimbabwe government understand what transpired.

He shot Cecil with bow/arrow, then when he realized he didn't get a kill shot (it happens) he spent 40 hours tracking Cecil to put him out of his remaining misery.

Then, the internet/media got wind of it and blew it all out of proportion.

Human males are apex predators, and have to impress the women. How many animals died because BMW had to strip-mine a hillside to get to the aluminum ore so you could have a metal fleece to surround yourself because "BMW = Bring Me Women"???? STFU

For the record, I don't hunt, mainly because if I had an extra $50K sitting around, I would buy my wife a new car.

[MiddleAgedAl]

Originally Posted by larryn

If it was a warthog, there would be no fuss. Most of us enjoy steaks and chops and grills. Those animals live a miserable life and receive a bolt through their head to satisfy our hunger. I have made a choice to be okay with that, as have most of you.

1. If this guy did this legally, and was not aware that he was luring a lion outside of protected area, then this wrath and scorn, by seemingly all, is nothing more than a witch hunt.

2. If he participated in luring the animal outside or was approving of it, then, yeah, prosecute.

The fact is that we do not know if #1 or #2 is correct.

The fact that hunting for sport is immoral to many (myself included) is immaterial.

IF Cecil was killed for food, or clothing, or even to harvest his organs to make some hocus-pocus bullshit nonsense remedy to "cure" erectile dysfunction, that would be one thing. Even culling animals for population/herd management has some valid, big-picture values. But he was just killed for sport.

I'm no hypocrite, I eat meat, I own a leather jacket, etc. I have no problem with a farmer killing a cow so I can buy a jacket or eat a steak.

If someone wanted to kill a cow just for the sake of killing it, for the thrill of taking a life, with no intent to make use of it after (except perhaps to pose for photos next to it, or mount it's head on the wall), then I'd say there is something wrong with that person.

This guy has a history of breaking laws in the past to satisfy his urge to kill living beings. This time, he might not end up on probation again, like he was in the past, if he can shift the blame to his guides. This was not his first time, so when the guides worked hard to lure the lion out of the protected area, I find it really hard to believe he had no clue what was going on there. He was probably shrewd enough to let them do it so he would be isolated from blame later if the shit hit the fan, which is his current argument.

Regardless, if people were aware of his history, some might think twice before bringing their children to him for dental work. The fact that a "fuss" has been made of this is a public service, especially considering what he does for a living.

[NickyC]

I for one could never kill any animal for sport, especially something like a bird. To possess the ability to fly, and to have your existence extinguished by some causal hunter, just makes me sick to even think about it. There's ten million other hobbies out there, why kill something for fun? I'm also an avid gun nut, so please don't think this has anything to do with antigun. I have an incredible amount of fun just shooting paper targets and clay. It's never once crossed my mind to shoot something with a pulse. Check out some of my toys!!!

With all that being said, what people are doing to this dentist right now is terrible. If he broke the law, the authorities and courts will deal with it. He's essentially being lynched thanks to the wonders of social media, and nobody really knows what the hell is going on. His livelihood has been absolutely destroyed, and there's a chance he did everything legally. Whether or not you agree with him killing animals, which I don't, is not the issue here.

*edit*
Removed pic of dirty nasty boom sticks that kill people and other animate objects just by looking at them, with absolutely no human intervention whatsoever.

[cowpunk]

Cecil the lion: tastes like chicken...mmm, mmm, good!!!


Cowpunk

[Cuz5150]

Originally Posted by NickyC

I for one could never kill any animal for sport, especially something like a bird. To possess the ability to fly, and to have your existence extinguished by some causal hunter, just makes me sick to even think about it. There's ten million other hobbies out there, why kill something for fun? I'm also an avid gun nut, so please don't think this has anything to do with antigun. I have an incredible amount of fun just shooting paper targets and clay. It's never once crossed my mind to shoot something with a pulse. Check out some of my toys!!!

With all that being said, what people are doing to this dentist right now is terrible. If he broke the law, the authorities and courts will deal with it. He's essentially being lynched thanks to the wonders of social media, and nobody really knows what the hell is going on. His livelihood has been absolutely destroyed, and there's a chance he did everything legally. Whether or not you agree with him killing animals, which I don't, is not the issue here.

Benelli M4= bees knees

[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by NickyC

I for one could never kill any animal for sport, especially something like a bird. To possess the ability to fly, and to have your existence extinguished by some causal hunter, just makes me sick to even think about it. There's ten million other hobbies out there, why kill something for fun? I'm also an avid gun nut, so please don't think this has anything to do with antigun. I have an incredible amount of fun just shooting paper targets and clay. It's never once crossed my mind to shoot something with a pulse. Check out some of my toys!!!

With all that being said, what people are doing to this dentist right now is terrible. If he broke the law, the authorities and courts will deal with it. He's essentially being lynched thanks to the wonders of social media, and nobody really knows what the hell is going on. His livelihood has been absolutely destroyed, and there's a chance he did everything legally. Whether or not you agree with him killing animals, which I don't, is not the issue here.

[IMG][/IMG]

I won't quote the pics, but enjoy your future forced vacation from the forums. I think you'll find the mods are "antigun" unlike yourself...and me. Perhaps you should quickly take them down.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

I've never heard of Cecil.

...

I hadn't heard of him either until he made news by dint of his passing. I've watched a lot of "critter TV" over the years and few are the ones that have names for the animals shown, although the shows based around specific research various scientists conduct have had plenty of named beasts -- lions, leopards, cheetahs, elephants, mongoose, meercats, and primates. (Curiously, names don't seem to get attached to hippos and crocs, birds, buffalo, giraffes, zebras, and many other wild critters.)

I went to find out why this particular wild lion even had a name. I found that he was a 13 year old lion who was a star attraction for visitors to the Hwange National Park in Zimbabwe because of his seemingly amicable nature toward people. "He would often be seen by the side of main roads through the park, unfazed by the snapping of cameras, thus giving holidaymakers some incredible pictures to take home."

In consideration of Cecil's demise after having learned more about him, I think/feel:

• The circumstances of his death are sad.
• It's hard to say whether the "bush beaters" who drew him out for the hunter knew they were flushing Cecil specifically. I think it plausible that they at least knew of Cecil's existence, even if they didn't recognize whatever were his identifying marks.
• Cecil most probably wasn't long for this world anyway -- be it that he died the violent but sometimes prolonged death typical for male lions. Various estimates list wild lion lifespans at between 10 and 16 years on average, and up to about 30 in captivity. Cecil may have lived to see the "long side" of a lion's expected lifespan, but he lived in the wild, and "Mother Nature" is a capricious bitch.
• It's conceivable that Cecil's death will prove more useful to lions overall than did his life. At the very least, it has called global attention to the nature and extent of poaching, habitat shrinkage, and the ethics of game hunting, something that as far as I know, only one other animal species -- dolphins -- appears to attack and kill other creatures for "sh*ts and grins."
• Lions are beautiful creatures, but I have no illusions about what kind of creature Cecil was. In short he was a child killing, MILF-chaser.
  
  Lions are what Samuel L. Jackson would call "motherf*ckers." If there is one thing lions love to do, it's moms. Unfortunately, lionesses don't like to put out when they're raising a kid. So, when the lions want some "play," but the kids are in the way, they walk up to the little brats and maul them to death. Then, to add insult to injury, they bone the mother ten ways till Sunday -- as often as six times an hour for days on end.
  
  To put this into perspective, imagine your mom having sex with the kid who stole your lunch money in school, but replace "stole lunch money" with "turned you into a bleeding stump of a man." Surprisingly, this means Scar from Disney's The Lion King is the most accurate portrayal of a lion, despite all the singing, dancing and Whoopie Goldberg. You know who should be glad this kind of thing is not acceptable among humans? Angelina Jolie's kids.
  
  
  This is how male humans see women with kids...happy mothers with their kids in tow.
  
  
  This is how Cecil sees lionesses with kids in tow. And the reason he does is because as long as the lioness has those kids, this doesn't happen.....
  
  

For however friendly Cecil was, he was still every bit a lion.

It may be enjoyable and whatnot to anthropomorphize Cecil, or even just to think of him as a larger version of your favorite house cat. Quite simply, doing that is nothing but fantasizing. I don't feel that Cecil deserved to be killed by a hunter, and I do feel sorry for him in that his end was caused by a human rather than whatever else brings about a wild lion's end. I agree with you, however, that the circumstances of his death, though pitiful, have been blown out of proportion.

Shocking Sidebar:
There aren't many cases of dolphins attacking humans, but then there aren't many people living 24/7 in the water where there are dolphins. But dolphins violently humping humans? Hell yeah!

All the best.

[NickyC]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

I won't quote the pics, but enjoy your future forced vacation from the forums. I think you'll find the mods are "antigun" unlike yourself...and me. Perhaps you should quickly take them down.

HuH? You can't post gun pics on here? Why on earth not?

I'll take my post down then, but unfortunately it's already been quoted.

Lame "rule". Thanks for the heads up though.

Cuz5150, you are correct. If I could keep only one of the devices (better be careful around I guess), it would be that. It's an amazing device, shakes the floor every time I go to the "device utilization zone", and people come running to see what's causing all the noise. ;D

Mine has all necessary 922r compliant parts to be able to run the extended mag tube and collapsible stock as well.

[FL335]

Originally Posted by /// M sa

Sorry had a nice bottle of 2006 chalk hill cab while I was posting.. It was a heck of a day with the firm and closing on deals. I do have a soft spot for animals as they do what nature has thought them and humans... Well we fuck everything up and nature sure didn't teach us that😜 it's just our nature to destroy. You too are fucking up my tee time lol see you guys later.

All good...I feel you and understand.I love animals and think they all need love...just like us Humans. The whole thing is absurd. He is done for a while and the guides sb shot.

Originally Posted by tony20009

*

[GregTheStig]

Originally Posted by tony20009

No way in fuck am I watching that. Your YouTube history must be fascinating.

[jgoens]

Originally Posted by GregTheStig

No way in fuck am I watching that. Your YouTube history must be fascinating.

Yeah, you watched it...no way you couldn't..the curiosity was just too much.

[GregTheStig]

Originally Posted by jgoens

Yeah, you watched it...no way you couldn't..the curiosity was just too much.

It was fascinating but went a lil too fast 9/10

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by shawshankRedem

Thank you.

Originally Posted by GregTheStig

No way in fuck am I watching that. Your YouTube history must be fascinating.

Sadly, not even remotely. I rarely watch YouTube content. I've only seen about 100 or so YouTube videos in total. Now the content in my library is an entirely different matter.

I prefer to read because I read much faster than people speak. I don't know how fast I read these days, but not long after completing Evelyn Wood, I read at a little over 1000 words per minute with 91% comprehension. In case you aren't a speed reader, and to put that into perspective, it takes me about one to one and a half hours to read a typical novel of 300-500 pages. It takes a little bit longer with complicated non-fiction such as scholarly texts on cosmology or economics.

All the best.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by tony20009

I hadn't heard of him either until he made news by dint of his passing. I've watched a lot of "critter TV" over the years and few are the ones that have names for the animals shown, although the shows based around specific research various scientists conduct have had plenty of named beasts -- lions, leopards, cheetahs, elephants, mongoose, meercats, and primates. (Curiously, names don't seem to get attached to hippos and crocs, birds, buffalo, giraffes, zebras, and many other wild critters.)

I went to find out why this particular wild lion even had a name. I found that he was a 13 year old lion who was a star attraction for visitors to the Hwange National Park in Zimbabwe because of his seemingly amicable nature toward people. "He would often be seen by the side of main roads through the park, unfazed by the snapping of cameras, thus giving holidaymakers some incredible pictures to take home."

In consideration of Cecil's demise after having learned more about him, I think/feel:

• The circumstances of his death are sad.
• It's hard to say whether the "bush beaters" who drew him out for the hunter knew they were flushing Cecil specifically. I think it plausible that they at least knew of Cecil's existence, even if they didn't recognize whatever were his identifying marks.
• Cecil most probably wasn't long for this world anyway -- be it that he died the violent but sometimes prolonged death typical for male lions. Various estimates list wild lion lifespans at between 10 and 16 years on average, and up to about 30 in captivity. Cecil may have lived to see the "long side" of a lion's expected lifespan, but he lived in the wild, and "Mother Nature" is a capricious bitch.
• It's conceivable that Cecil's death will prove more useful to lions overall than did his life. At the very least, it has called global attention to the nature and extent of poaching, habitat shrinkage, and the ethics of game hunting, something that as far as I know, only one other animal species -- dolphins -- appears to attack and kill other creatures for "sh*ts and grins."
• Lions are beautiful creatures, but I have no illusions about what kind of creature Cecil was. In short he was a child killing, MILF-chaser.
  
  Lions are what Samuel L. Jackson would call "motherf*ckers." If there is one thing lions love to do, it's moms. Unfortunately, lionesses don't like to put out when they're raising a kid. So, when the lions want some "play," but the kids are in the way, they walk up to the little brats and maul them to death. Then, to add insult to injury, they bone the mother ten ways till Sunday -- as often as six times an hour for days on end.
  
  To put this into perspective, imagine your mom having sex with the kid who stole your lunch money in school, but replace "stole lunch money" with "turned you into a bleeding stump of a man." Surprisingly, this means Scar from Disney's The Lion King is the most accurate portrayal of a lion, despite all the singing, dancing and Whoopie Goldberg. You know who should be glad this kind of thing is not acceptable among humans? Angelina Jolie's kids.
  
  
  This is how male humans see women with kids...happy mothers with their kids in tow.
  
  
  This is how Cecil sees lionesses with kids in tow. And the reason he does is because as long as the lioness has those kids, this doesn't happen.....
  
  

For however friendly Cecil was, he was still every bit a lion.

It may be enjoyable and whatnot to anthropomorphize Cecil, or even just to think of him as a larger version of your favorite house cat. Quite simply, doing that is nothing but fantasizing. I don't feel that Cecil deserved to be killed by a hunter, and I do feel sorry for him in that his end was caused by a human rather than whatever else brings about a wild lion's end. I agree with you, however, that the circumstances of his death, though pitiful, have been blown out of proportion.

Shocking Sidebar:
There aren't many cases of dolphins attacking humans, but then there aren't many people living 24/7 in the water where there are dolphins. But dolphins violently humping humans? Hell yeah!

All the best.

I can agree with this, although a lion wouldn't actively target and kill lion cubs necessarily. Lion males protect their own, no different than a domesticated dog protecting a family of people who own it. The reason why lion males don't live particularly long in the wild is due to their nature of being leader of the pride. The dominant male has free reign to mate with the lionesses of the pride (plus they do all the hunting and food gathering). In return, the male lion will protect them and the cubs he has produced from other males who aren't part of the pride looking to take over.

It's not uncommon to see male lions be very affectionate towards cubs...if they're their own. The only reason they will kill them is because they aren't theirs and want to replace them with his own cubs. The behavior may seem senseless to us, but for a wild animal who's instinctive nature is to reproduce and where the theory of evolution dictates that only the dominant ones reproduce in order to ensure the highest probability of species existence, it makes perfect sense. Humans, who outside of instinctive nature run off things like laws and morals, still have our instinctive nature. The way men see women isn't that much different than wild male animals.

Other than that though, you're right. Animals like dolphins and otters are raping machines. With dolphins, hilariously so. Otters have been known to kill females in an attempt to rape them. The overall otter population can be viewed as somewhat of a sausage fest. Ironically their proclivity for violent rape merely makes the issue worse.

Source: watched a shit ton of Discovery Channel as a kid (back when they actually showed educational television).

[Ashley Schaeffer BMW]

Originally Posted by /// M sa

Nope, wrong not an emotional wreck at all. I see things as they are and I am tired of lack of sense, compassion for life being animals or humans. Cops are on a killing frenzy around the country, many poaching like this happen and most go un reported. You enjoy living in your bubble and sing effing Kumbaya. Now I have a tee time stop effing up my time responding to your post

Stopped reading at "cops are on a killing frenzy".....

I was right, you are an emotional nut job. I'll leave you be in la la land.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

I can agree with this, although a lion wouldn't actively target and kill lion cubs necessarily. Lion males protect their own, no different than a domesticated dog protecting a family of people who own it. The reason why lion males don't live particularly long in the wild is due to their nature of being leader of the pride. The dominant male has free reign to mate with the lionesses of the pride (plus they do all the hunting and food gathering). In return, the male lion will protect them and the cubs he has produced from other males who aren't part of the pride looking to take over.

It's not uncommon to see male lions be very affectionate towards cubs...if they're their own. The only reason they will kill them is because they aren't theirs and want to replace them with his own cubs. The behavior may seem senseless to us, but for a wild animal who's instinctive nature is to reproduce and where the theory of evolution dictates that only the dominant ones reproduce in order to ensure the highest probability of species existence, it makes perfect sense. Humans, who outside of instinctive nature run off things like laws and morals, still have our instinctive nature. The way men see women isn't that much different than wild male animals.

Other than that though, you're right. Animals like dolphins and otters are raping machines. With dolphins, hilariously so. Otters have been known to kill females in an attempt to rape them. The overall otter population can be viewed as somewhat of a sausage fest. Ironically their proclivity for violent rape merely makes the issue worse.

Source: watched a shit ton of Discovery Channel as a kid (back when they actually showed educational television).

Red:
Yes, I didn't tell the "whole story" re: pride takeovers and whatnot. I probably should have, but I didn't for I figured the folks participating in this discussion have surely seen (original and thousands of repeats) the shows that explain all that.

It is, however, my understanding that male lions will on rare occasion kill even their own cubs if they find them before the lioness introduces them to the rest of her pride. IIRC, it has something to do with the cubs having an identifiable smell...something conceptually similar to the lion viewing them as "unclaimed" because they don't smell like "the pride" or their mothers.

Other:
One thing I haven't seen covered is pride incest. I guess that's just too taboo for television? It's certainly not a matter of whether a lion will or won't mate with his female offspring. If allowed to, they will. (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/725058/posts) It certainly wasn't a subject made patently clear in The Lion King. LOL (http://bgms-assortment-of-works-and-...of-incest.html)

According to the nature shows I remember, a lion (or pair/trio) will hold a pride for about 2-6 years. That natural order seems to me to do well enough for making incest rare-ish. But a pair or trio of pride males can hold a pride for considerably longer. In such cases, though the males probably have no clue which lionesses are their daughters, at least there's some chance that they won't mate with their children, although if the trio are siblings, they'll certainly find themselves mating, if not with their daughters, with their nieces.

Cecil's death hopefully will put a spotlight on the inbreeding consequences of poaching.

• Poaching --> smaller overall lion populations.
• Smaller lion populations --> fewer lions.
• Fewer lions --> lions hold prides longer.
• Longer held prides --> pride members commit incest.
• Incest --> genetic flaws aren't bred out of the population's DNA.

Blue:
Ain't that the truth!!! As goes "critter TV" I'm a Nature fan, myself. It's not that Nature's content is so different from Nat Geo or BBC nature shows. It's that they don't have commercials. LOL

All the best.

[larryn]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

IF Cecil was killed for food, or clothing, or even to harvest his organs to make some hocus-pocus bullshit nonsense remedy to "cure" erectile dysfunction, that would be one thing. Even culling animals for population/herd management has some valid, big-picture values. But he was just killed for sport.

I'm no hypocrite, I eat meat, I own a leather jacket, etc. I have no problem with a farmer killing a cow so I can buy a jacket or eat a steak.

If someone wanted to kill a cow just for the sake of killing it, for the thrill of taking a life, with no intent to make use of it after (except perhaps to pose for photos next to it, or mount it's head on the wall), then I'd say there is something wrong with that person.

This guy has a history of breaking laws in the past to satisfy his urge to kill living beings. This time, he might not end up on probation again, like he was in the past, if he can shift the blame to his guides. This was not his first time, so when the guides worked hard to lure the lion out of the protected area, I find it really hard to believe he had no clue what was going on there. He was probably shrewd enough to let them do it so he would be isolated from blame later if the shit hit the fan, which is his current argument.

Regardless, if people were aware of his history, some might think twice before bringing their children to him for dental work. The fact that a "fuss" has been made of this is a public service, especially considering what he does for a living.

I don't disagree with any of this, and you are necessairly disagreeing with what I said either. We do not know the facts of this case. Period. He may be guilty or it may just as easily be explainable.

I normally wouldn't even respond to a thread like this, because they are just filled with eVillagers with ePitchforks. Fruitless pursuits by the unwitting.

[MrRoboto]

First world problem if I ever saw one.

[/// M sa]

Originally Posted by Ashley Schaeffer BMW

Stopped reading at "cops are on a killing frenzy".....

I was right, you are an emotional nut job. I'll leave you be in la la land.

Turn the effing news on moron... not all cops are bad but lately everything we see is a punk with a badge and a gun taking down unarmed civilians. Go stick your head in the sand.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by MrRoboto

First world problem if I ever saw one.

Well if we're to get literal, it's actually a third world problem.