[32valves]

mine does that sometimes also since I installed my kit.
yesterday it took twice as long to start up and catch

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

Have you been running the engine hard right up to shut down? On mine if I don't drive calmly for a couple minutes or let it idle it will have a harder/longer start. That only seems to happen with methanol running. I have a solenoid on mine.

Hooper I think that is probably exactly what is at play. I ran my car with the system turned off for about 5 min before shut down and that seems to fix it.

some pics of the install

lower right pic is a little fuzzy, but I decided to stack the nozzles vertically (not the Frankenstein configuration) so I would not have to worry about the two streams of water/meth spraying directly at each other from across the charge pipe.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

Have you been running the engine hard right up to shut down? On mine if I don't drive calmly for a couple minutes or let it idle it will have a harder/longer start. That only seems to happen with methanol running. I have a solenoid on mine.

The other thing I noticed is that when I really pushed it the EGT did not seem to noticeably drop that much when I floored it. I think at one point this might have been due to having my settings out of whack.

I am now running the 175 mm nozzle at 14 psi to 27 psi; secondary 375 mm nozzle kicks in at 28 psi. Since installing the new charge pipe my turbo pressure peaks at 30-31 psi vs 26.8 psi. When I had the 375 mm noozle kicking in at 26 psi I got a clicking noise from the engine that I have to assume was quenching.

375 mm noozle may be a bit too big for my car or at least it has to kick in very late to ensure higher RPMs when it starts spraying.

[Chief Orman]

a few more...hopefully the one right below gives a sense of the nozzle configuration...my mechanic had a good welder on hand....below right show the location of the turbo pressure sensor

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by 32valves

mine does that sometimes also since I installed my kit.
yesterday it took twice as long to start up and catch

32 what size nozzles are you running? What PSI are they kicking in at?

[TDIwyse]

It looks like your solenoid is higher than your nozzles. Is that correct? If so, and you don't have a check valve right at the nozzles, you might be draining the lines from the solenoid to the nozzles after each injection cycle. Which means you could be pooling some water in the bottom of your intake (basically the intercooler).

I had this same rough start situation due to this affect when one of my AEM nozzle built in check valves started leaking. I first noticed this issue with my flow gauge, where the first time I would initiate injection there would be a large "rush" of fluid that would peg the flow gauge before it returned to normal flow ratings. This would only happen if there was a prolonged span of time between initiating injection.

I put in clear lines from the solenoid to the AEM injector and when using the blue washer fluid I could visual see air pockets forming in the line between the solenoid and the AEM injector body. Ended up removing the AEM body/injector and verifying that it was, in fact, leaking.

I have since changed to different injector nozzle with a separate check valve between it and the solenoid (solenoid sits higher than this nozzle). Since doing this I haven't had the rough start issue or the "rush" of fluid.

[Hoooper]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

375 mm noozle may be a bit too big for my car or at least it has to kick in very late to ensure higher RPMs when it starts spraying.

It also depends on the mix you are running. You can inject a lot more without quenching if you run 100% meth than if you run 100% water, but yes if it holds off until later in the RPM you can also inject more without quenching.

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

I have since changed to different injector nozzle with a separate check valve between it and the solenoid (solenoid sits higher than this nozzle). Since doing this I haven't had the rough start issue or the "rush" of fluid.

Interesting, whats the function of the check valve? Seems to me it would be to prevent boost from pushing all the fluid back to the tank, but is it a check valve that cracks open for flow at a certain pressure, so when the pump is off it doesnt let any w/m through to the intake but when the pump runs the check valve gets opened up?

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

Interesting, whats the function of the check valve? Seems to me it would be to prevent boost from pushing all the fluid back to the tank, but is it a check valve that cracks open for flow at a certain pressure, so when the pump is off it doesnt let any w/m through to the intake but when the pump runs the check valve gets opened up?

The biggest concern would likely be the water in the intake causing a hydro-lock situation and damaging something...

Example on youtube of a leaking AEM check valve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zS4qq0NJ_U

Also, AEM issued a TSB on this in the past.

http://www.aemelectronics.com/files/...12-001RevA.pdf

[Hoooper]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

The biggest concern would likely be the water in the intake causing a hydro-lock situation and damaging something...

Example on youtube of a leaking AEM check valve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zS4qq0NJ_U

Also, AEM issued a TSB on this in the past.

http://www.aemelectronics.com/files/...12-001RevA.pdf

I would think the solenoid is your best bet to prevent siphoning enough water from the tank to cause hydro-lock. I can see the check valve being useful to prevent drain down and also to have a line that is basically pre-charged for when you want to start spraying. The best solution I see would be to have the solenoid right next to the injector.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

It looks like your solenoid is higher than your nozzles. Is that correct? If so, and you don't have a check valve right at the nozzles, you might be draining the lines from the solenoid to the nozzles after each injection cycle. Which means you could be pooling some water in the bottom of your intake (basically the intercooler).

I had this same rough start situation due to this affect when one of my AEM nozzle built in check valves started leaking. I first noticed this issue with my flow gauge, where the first time I would initiate injection there would be a large "rush" of fluid that would peg the flow gauge before it returned to normal flow ratings. This would only happen if there was a prolonged span of time between initiating injection.

I put in clear lines from the solenoid to the AEM injector and when using the blue washer fluid I could visual see air pockets forming in the line between the solenoid and the AEM injector body. Ended up removing the AEM body/injector and verifying that it was, in fact, leaking.

I have since changed to different injector nozzle with a separate check valve between it and the solenoid (solenoid sits higher than this nozzle). Since doing this I haven't had the rough start issue or the "rush" of fluid.

What is the noozle brand. I also spoke with Snow re: EGTs and they said that the most benefits are on trucks that consistently run EGTs in the 1500 degree range

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

What is the noozle brand. I also spoke with Snow re: EGTs and they said that the most benefits are on trucks that consistently run EGTs in the 1500 degree range

I've got a high flow rated AIS nozzle in a 90 degree angled holder for the lower nozzle, along with a check valve directly prior to the 90. Also have the ability to put in a 2nd nozzle that's above the solenoid and IAT if I want, and have used my non-leaking AEM unit there.

I'm guessing the snow response is for EGT readings pre turbo (in the exhaust manifold). Our OEM EGT gauges are post turbo, and will read significantly lower at full fueling/high rpm conditions than a pre-turbo EGT sensor would read ...

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

I've got a high flow rated AIS nozzle in a 90 degree angled holder for the lower nozzle, along with a check valve directly prior to the 90. Also have the ability to put in a 2nd nozzle that's above the solenoid and IAT if I want, and have used my non-leaking AEM unit there.

I'm guessing the snow response is for EGT readings pre turbo (in the exhaust manifold). Our OEM EGT gauges are post turbo, and will read significantly lower at full fueling/high rpm conditions than a pre-turbo EGT sensor would read ...

TDI would you recommend getting AIS noozle? What size noozle(s) are you running?

With regard to EGTs under any circumstances I can't imagine how installing a water/meth system would not bring down EGTs even if one where running almost pure methanol. Correct?

FWIW, I am find that my system, which is purely driven of turbo PSI, works better if it does not kick in until 14 psi. The folks at Snow say that I can set it to come on as low as 6 psi (roughly boost at cruising speed) but as you all know, you can ramp up the turbo PSI well in advance of the engine RPM ramping up. What also surprised the hell out of me was the claim that I could run a much bigger noozle as my primary, e.g., up to 375 mm versus the 175 mm primary that I am running how.

I am going to call the folks at Snow on solenoid issue. I want to make sure that water/meth is not draining into the intercooler under any circumstances. Per Hooper's post, the difficulty starting really does seem to be related to how hard I have run the car immediately prior to shut off.

Last but not least, given that it appears that I have gone from peak turbo PSI of 26.8 to 31ish it makes one wonder if all of us shouldn't be checking out boost hose connections. I just assume that adding the new charge pipe and having it properly installed probably ended some leakage from the turbo system.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

It also depends on the mix you are running. You can inject a lot more without quenching if you run 100% meth than if you run 100% water, but yes if it holds off until later in the RPM you can also inject more without quenching.

Interesting, whats the function of the check valve? Seems to me it would be to prevent boost from pushing all the fluid back to the tank, but is it a check valve that cracks open for flow at a certain pressure, so when the pump is off it doesnt let any w/m through to the intake but when the pump runs the check valve gets opened up?

Based on Torque Pro readings my car is generating an additional 25 hp. That sounds right based on the butt dyno. I also ran a 5.6 0-60 which is a new record.

Based on my conversation with Snow and the calculator on the Devil's Own website, I should be running a bigger nozzle.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

Last but not least, given that it appears that I have gone from peak turbo PSI of 26.8 to 31ish it makes one wonder if all of us shouldn't be checking out boost hose connections. I just assume that adding the new charge pipe and having it properly installed probably ended some leakage from the turbo system.

Are you also running a piggyback of some kind? If so, I'm guessing it has nothing to do with the new tube and everything to do with pushing more HP with the methanol and hence more exhaust pressure on the turbine.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

TDI would you recommend getting AIS noozle? What size noozle(s) are you running?

With regard to EGTs under any circumstances I can't imagine how installing a water/meth system would not bring down EGTs even if one where running almost pure methanol. Correct?

...

The AIS stuff seems pretty solid. Not going to venture into the "which nozzles are better" area though... However, I was pleased with the atomization produced by their higher flow rate injectors when doing visual checks/comparisons.

Depending on many factors of your fueling/timing/boost/AFR's/etc, adding additional fuel, like methanol, can make your EGT's go up.

There's lots of variables to consider and analysis. That's part of the fun and learning experience with modifying your vehicle.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by DWR

Are you also running a piggyback of some kind? If so, I'm guessing it has nothing to do with the new tube and everything to do with pushing more HP with the methanol and hence more exhaust pressure on the turbine.

Fair enough...I am not knowledgeable enough to have connected those dots on my own but it makes sense based on my high school level physics.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by DWR

Are you also running a piggyback of some kind? If so, I'm guessing it has nothing to do with the new tube and everything to do with pushing more HP with the methanol and hence more exhaust pressure on the turbine.

And yes, I am running a Chipexpress piggyback, but that never generated more than 28.6 psi...it must be all due to the water meth

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by DWR

Are you also running a piggyback of some kind? If so, I'm guessing it has nothing to do with the new tube and everything to do with pushing more HP with the methanol and hence more exhaust pressure on the turbine.

Since I have been running my piggyback for several months, can it really be the case that my water/meth system is raising my EGTs? Every bit of advertising that I have ever read talks about lowering EGTs as a primary benefit. I am totally flummoxed. That said, I am not sure my EGTs have really gone up, vis-a-vis not having dropped. To complicate things further I now wonder if I am running a large enough primary nozzle at 175mm to meaningfully cool EGTs. Thus I would grateful if folks would share the size of their primary nozzle.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

The AIS stuff seems pretty solid. Not going to venture into the "which nozzles are better" area though... However, I was pleased with the atomization produced by their higher flow rate injectors when doing visual checks/comparisons.

Depending on many factors of your fueling/timing/boost/AFR's/etc, adding additional fuel, like methanol, can make your EGT's go up.

There's lots of variables to consider and analysis. That's part of the fun and learning experience with modifying your vehicle.

Leaving aside the issue of EGTs, I just setup Carly to monitor Charge Air temperature after Charge Air Cooler. Given German to English translation issues I assume this means charge air temperature after the intercooler, i.e., it is reading from the IAT in the charge pipe. Now the for the good part...this morning when I was driving my car the charge air temp post intercooler was running about 100 degrees. Within five seconds of putting my foot into it with the water/meth spraying, the temperature dropped from 100 degrees to 74 degrees. Holy crap! Of course, that is what is supposed to happen but it is nice to see such a dramatic drop. Even better it makes me realize that going through the expense and trouble of buying a new charge pipe after my mechanic mounted the nozzles above the IAT was all worth it. Which is to say, had I left the nozzles above the IAT they never would have detected such a massive drop in air temp and the DDE would not be able to adjust accordingly.

[32valves]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

32 what size nozzles are you running? What PSI are they kicking in at?

single nozzle #10 (625ml)
at 17-18 psi (Hobbs switch)

[DWR]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

Which is to say, had I left the nozzles above the IAT they never would have detected such a massive drop in air temp and the DDE would not be able to adjust accordingly.

You're catching on Chief. It is all interrelated and complex, at times.