[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by DWR

Plenty of smart people are trying to acheive different results. Therefore, the idea that there would be an optimal configuration to realize all those results starts with a false premise.
But let me answer the question I think you are really asking. Chief, your setup is fine the way it is.

Terrific. And thank you..

Strange development... I lowered the amount of meth that I am using in my mixture. Now it is probably a ratio of 30% meth to 70% water. For reasons I don't fully understand, I am no longer having a problem with quenching. My car begins injecting as low as 10 psi with the one hundred and seventy five millimeter nozzle. the secondary nozzle which is 350 mm kicks in @ 27 psi. of course the car does not have the pickup it did when I was running almost pure meth. However there is still a noticeable power boost, the car drives beautifully and, most importantly, my temperatures are the same or even a little lower with the system running.

I know that none of this is an earth-shattering insight however I now feel like I have a water meth system that I can run in my daily driver that has substantially increased my power without making me worry that I am going to melt my turbos. Next month I will be more scientific about precisely measuring out my mixture, but my earlier posts were dominated by my frustrations around what I thought was quenching. I am now wondering if I created some sort of early detonation issue by running too much meth that I mistook for quenching. I think this is unlikely given that the car was a rocket when I was running almost pure meth and the only ill effect that I could discern was pre DPF temperatures that were 1200+ degrees.

DWR someday I will get you my logs from torque pro. Running the lower meth mixture has meant my boost now Peaks @ 28 psi vs 30 psi and my AFRs no longer drop below 13.5. my pre DPF temperatures do not break 1000 degrees. in short, I am a happy camper.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

Running the lower meth mixture has meant my boost now Peaks @ 28 psi vs 30 psi and my AFRs no longer drop below 13.5. my pre DPF temperatures do not break 1000 degrees. in short, I am a happy camper.

Some folks wouldn't want to give up the increased performance. Different strokes for different folks ... it is good that you are satisfied.

I think you might be right about detonation versus quenching.

[Hoooper]

You shouldnt get detonation from running any concentration of meth, 100% or 5%. Not saying that isnt what was happening, but it doesnt make sense to me. Diesel fuel has practically no ignition resistance from compression (octane rating is considered to be somewhere around 20) while methanol has an octane rating generally considered to be about 115.

[iaknown]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

You shouldnt get detonation from running any concentration of meth, 100% or 5%. Not saying that isnt what was happening, but it doesnt make sense to me. Diesel fuel has practically no ignition resistance from compression (octane rating is considered to be somewhere around 20) while methanol has an octane rating generally considered to be about 115.

On paper it appears this is not an issue and meth injection is totally safe. Snow Performance swears the same thing(of course). But search over in the truck forums and you'll find some horror stories from detonation. Doesn't make sense to me either but apparently it happens.

[Hoooper]

Originally Posted by iaknown

On paper it appears this is not an issue and meth injection is totally safe. Snow Performance swears the same thing(of course). But search over in the truck forums and you'll find some horror stories from detonation. Doesn't make sense to me either but apparently it happens.

It may have nothing to do with "detonation"as we understand it, but something more like the actual burn rate or something that would have the same end result as detonation. Even in diesels ignition should start before the piston reaches tdc, if one fuel expands considerably more rapidly than another you would see the same effect as detonation. With methanol I would expect that diesel actually kicks off ignition but if methanol takes over due to a more rapid combustion speed you could get done weird effects.

[charlie fairmont]

I've read the new m3 will have factory water injection.

http://m-power.com/_open/s/varlink2.jsp?id=3301&lang=en[/URL]

Wonder if there's any insight to be gained...

[iaknown]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

It may have nothing to do with "detonation"as we understand it, but something more like the actual burn rate or something that would have the same end result as detonation. Even in diesels ignition should start before the piston reaches tdc, if one fuel expands considerably more rapidly than another you would see the same effect as detonation. With methanol I would expect that diesel actually kicks off ignition but if methanol takes over due to a more rapid combustion speed you could get done weird effects.

I think you're right on the money with that. We know SOI is well before tdc so the meth (depending on the concentration) can certainly speed up that process to the point where it is unsafe, especially in the upper rpm's.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

It may have nothing to do with "detonation"as we understand it, but something more like the actual burn rate or something that would have the same end result as detonation. Even in diesels ignition should start before the piston reaches tdc, if one fuel expands considerably more rapidly than another you would see the same effect as detonation. With methanol I would expect that diesel actually kicks off ignition but if methanol takes over due to a more rapid combustion speed you could get done weird effects.

You have it right Hooper, except it is detonation as we know it. If you run a methanol fueled spark ignition engine, with 16.5:1 compression, 30 lbs of boost, short camshaft timing, AFR of 6, and 20 degrees of ignition advance, guess what will most likely happen? Then look at the SOI timing on our engines at full load of 20+ degrees.

It's the water that slows down the combustion rate (and methanol's is fast) to keep detonation from happening. It also has to do with the ratio of diesel to methanol. As a greater percentage of methanol is introduced the combustion cycle looks less like typical 2 phase diesel combustion and more like spark ingition with a diesel pilot ignition. High octane doesn't mean an engine cannot detonate. It just means the conditions needed are much harsher.

Methanol detonation in diesels is well documented. For those who wish to know more, I've attached a representative research article. For who are adverse to reading this kind of stuff, skip to the "picture" near the end.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by DWR

You have it right Hooper, except it is detonation as we know it. If you run a methanol fueled spark ignition engine, with 16.5:1 compression, 30 lbs of boost, short camshaft timing, AFR of 6, and 20 degrees of ignition advance, guess what will most likely happen? Then look at the SOI timing on our engines at full load of 20+ degrees.

It's the water that slows down the combustion rate (and methanol's is fast) to keep detonation from happening. It also has to do with the ratio of diesel to methanol. As a greater percentage of methanol is introduced the combustion cycle looks less like typical 2 phase diesel combustion and more like spark ingition with a diesel pilot ignition. High octane doesn't mean an engine cannot detonate. It just means the conditions needed are much harsher.

Methanol detonation in diesels is well documented. For those who wish to know more, I've attached a representative research article. For who are adverse to reading this kind of stuff, skip to the "picture" near the end.

Damn this is helpful stuff you guys. DWR I think you nailed it, I.e., what I thought was quenching at low RPM was probably a mixture in the cylinder that was more meth than diesel. It was a clacking sound that I would get with a drop in power. I have now been going the other direction, more water and less meth at 10 psi with no ill effect.

Apologies to all for misinterpreting this stuff.

I wish to god I knew what was a safe threshold pre DPF temp wise. After several high speed runs today with more careful measurement behind the Oakland port, my pre DPF temps peak at ~1,000 with no water meth and ~1050 with 30% meth. Tomorrow I will unplug my Chipexpress to try and determine how much my temps are over stock with no piggyback and no meth. In spite of my earlier enthusiasm I do wish I was getting a bit more power, but I don't want to push the temperature too high.

Does anybody have a rule of thumb they use on temps, ie, if I'm at 1000 degrees pre DPF that means I'm at 1300 degrees on the turbo? I know that nobody out there wants to give advice that might melt another persons engine, but it would be helpful to get some guidance in this area. My EGR is blocked but otherwise all the emissions equipment is still on the car.

[iaknown]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

Damn this is helpful stuff you guys. DWR I think you nailed it, I.e., what I thought was quenching at low RPM was probably a mixture in the cylinder that was more meth than diesel. It was a clacking sound that I would get with a drop in power. I have now been going the other direction, more water and less meth at 10 psi with no ill effect.

Apologies to all for misinterpreting this stuff.

I wish to god I knew what was a safe threshold pre DPF temp wise. After several high speed runs today with more careful measurement behind the Oakland port, my pre DPF temps peak at ~1,000 with no water meth and ~1050 with 30% meth. Tomorrow I will unplug my Chipexpress to try and determine how much my temps are over stock with no piggyback and no meth. In spite of my earlier enthusiasm I do wish I was getting a bit more power, but I don't want to push the temperature too high.

Does anybody have a rule of thumb they use on temps, ie, if I'm at 1000 degrees pre DPF that means I'm at 1300 degrees on the turbo? I know that nobody out there wants to give advice that might melt another persons engine, but it would be helpful to get some guidance in this area. My EGR is blocked but otherwise all the emissions equipment is still on the car.

For what it's worth, driving this car hard does not seem to have any ill effect on it. (Sounds like famous last words.)

You were warned a while ago in post #32 of your own thread Chief, just sayin I found similar results by personal experience as well....

[Chief Orman]

IA I went back and tracked down the thread. One interesting thing you mentioned, if I am reading it correctly, is I should increase my primary nozzle size to get cooling? For the record, on close examination I have never, ever seen reduced EGTs from running meth...ever.

I am running 175 mm primary and 350 mm secondary.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

...
For what it's worth, driving this car hard does not seem to have any ill effect on it. (Sounds like famous last words.)

Hold my beer and watch this (famous last words of a Redneck :-) )

Depending on where you're at on the compressor map and how efficient the turbo is, you might be well above 300F delta from pre to post turbo exhaust temps. Without a direct measurement it's a bit of speculation, and I haven't seen any direct measurements of this on our platform. But I would really like it if someone would share info if they have it.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Hold my beer and watch this (famous last words of a Redneck :-) )

Depending on where you're at on the compressor map and how efficient the turbo is, you might be well above 300F delta from pre to post turbo exhaust temps. Without a direct measurement it's a bit of speculation, and I haven't seen any direct measurements of this on our platform. But I would really like it if someone would share info if they have it.

So to put it in simplistic terms, if I am running 1,000 pre DPF I could be as high as 1,300 on the exhaust side. I am surprised that nobody has installed a temperature probe which seems pretty common in the truck world.

[Chief Orman]

Great article...which probably demonstrates that I need to stop spending so much time with my car.

[iaknown]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

IA I went back and tracked down the thread. One interesting thing you mentioned, if I am reading it correctly, is I should increase my primary nozzle size to get cooling? For the record, on close examination I have never, ever seen reduced EGTs from running meth...ever.

I am running 175 mm primary and 350 mm secondary.

Hmmm, don't recall indicating that, at least that's not what I meant. But feel free to expound on what I said specifically. You are still running the dpf, correct? Very interesting about the same EGT's....

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

So to put it in simplistic terms, if I am running 1,000 pre DPF I could be as high as 1,300 on the exhaust side. I am surprised that nobody has installed a temperature probe which seems pretty common in the truck world.

If you're 1000 post turbo (where the OEM EGT probes are located) you could be as high, or possibly more, than 1500 F pre turbo.

One of many examples showing a 500F delta pre/post EGT's ...

http://blog.glowshiftdirect.com/2013...or-post-turbo/

[BB_cuda]

For those of us with EGR cooler removed. There is a convenient way to measure pre turbo EGT. We all have a plug on the front end of the exhaust manifold that would have fed into inlet of cooler.

What if you put an EGT in that plug?

That area of manifold is stagnant (dead headed) so it would read higher than gases flowing to turbine but it would be better than drilling and tapping the exhaust.

[DWR]

Excellent suggestion. And if the DPF has been deleted, there is a spare probe to use,that can be datalogged by Torque or Testo.
The counter arguement will be what if the probe breaks and destroys the turbo?
Well, it is difficult to find any evidence that there is any risk of the EGT probe breaking. Failing yes, breaking no. Besides, after a little datalogging to establish the relationship, the probe can be removed.

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by DWR

Excellent suggestion. And if the DPF has been deleted, there is a spare probe to use,that can be datalogged by Torque or Testo.
The counter arguement will be what if the probe breaks and destroys the turbo?
Well, it is difficult to find any evidence that there is any risk of the EGT probe breaking. Failing yes, breaking no. Besides, after a little datalogging to establish the relationship, the probe can be removed.

I am happy to be the guinea pig

[DWR]

Originally Posted by DWR

... if the DPF has been deleted, there is a spare probe to use,that can be datalogged by Torque or Testo.

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

I am happy to be the guinea pig

Very good! What kind of help do you need?

[Chief Orman]

Originally Posted by DWR

Very good! What kind of help do you need?

I have the EGR blocking plates provided by our esteemed fellow poster on this site. Which of the blocking plates would get tapped for the temperature probe? How exactly would one place it? I assume a hole needs to be drilled and tapped. What kind of wiring would be required? How would one monitor the temps?

[DWR]

Originally Posted by Chief Orman

I have the EGR blocking plates provided by our esteemed fellow poster on this site. Which of the blocking plates would get tapped for the temperature probe? How exactly would one place it? I assume a hole needs to be drilled and tapped. What kind of wiring would be required? How would one monitor the temps?

So, we probably should talk about the details of this offline. Iaknown and I have discussed this idea before. He reminded me recently that creating an adapter to use the manifold pressure port is the best option, so that both pressure and temperature could be measured from that location. The temps could be logged using Torque Pro, but it would make more sense to use Testo.
But, I don't remember if you have the setup to make this happen. Are you running a DPF delete setup?