[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Fast4d

what if the engine blows while you're on track? are you on the hook for that?

No. Any mechanical issues with the car are fully covered by BMW.

[lemetier]

There will be some official clarification soon. The OP is extremely vague and doesn't quite match what's in the waiver and actual experiences from participants who have damaged PDC cars. Cars with minor damage are sent off to the Body Repair School and a replacement is given after a few verbal questions. It's when severe damage (total loss) and/or bodily injury occur that is in question. If this occurs, it's more likely than not to be attributed to gross negligence on the part of the participant.

[ASAP]

///Marketing continues...

[rr006rbc]

Well. Good thing I didn't wreck that F80 in Spartanburg lol. I always thought it was safe to assume there was track insurance since it was never brought up in the classes or during instruction.

Wonder if there's anyone on the forum that crashed one and got stuck with the bill. Poor kid.

[Jono2112]

I'm looking forward to hearing what a lawyer reading the waiver and some insurance agents have to say. It's great to have a community like this.
My insurance would cover nothing on a track, and if the op is right that there's no way to buy it, I would walk away and lose my class money. I had assumed the price of about $1,500 for two hours of actual track time was so high to cover potential damage to the equipment. That was naive of me.
I look forward to HPDE club events where I can get track insurance so at least something is covered. I guess personal liability is another issue? If so we need to find a niche insurance company willing to underwrite that kind of policy.

[evanevery]

I don't know where this info is coming from but it is somewhere between misleading and absolutely incorrect...

I have attended (and still attend) the BMW schools quite often. Both in the U.S. and in Europe (Germany). I have witnessed several accidents at these schools. This includes an M5 sliding offroad into a wall (blowing all airbags) at VIR during a wet braking exercise, an M3 into the front straight wall at Road Atlanta after a high speed mis-negotiation of turn 12, and an M4 rear ending a group of two other M4's at the Ring (3 cars involved - one of which I was in the passenger seat).

In NONE of these events were the students held financially liable for the cars. I know all the drivers involved (some better than others), and no one was billed for any damages. In fact, the students were given replacement vehicles to finish the training once they were checked out and medically cleared (if it was required).

BMW does their very best to help try and minimize damages of any kind but these things do happen and they fully understand that. However, if the event occurred because the student had done something due to a careless or reckless attitude, then I believe BMW might have a different position on the matter, but I've never witnessed that. In fact, the European waiver even specific identifies liability (2500 euro max) if it was reckless/careless.

So, I'm not sure of where this is coming from, but I do 2-3 Advanced Schools a year and I've NEVER heard of anyone actually billed for damages to any vehicles - and I've seen a few...

Anyone know of someone who was actually held liable for vehicular damage at a BMW driving school? If so, what were the details of the event?

[FormulaMMM]

In BMW's defense (sort of) --

There's a practical difference between requiring participants to sign a waiver that overwhelmingly works in the co's favor should any participants prove reckless, negligent, etc. and financially reaming anyone who puts a dent in a car due to novice error.

Surely there have been a handful of incidents over the years at the school -- I'd be pretty surprised to learn that well-meaning students were held financially responsible.

Waivers, contracts are often drafted in the interest of protection in worst case scenarios. Doesn't mean that the company is unreasonable and chomping at the bit to "enforce" the most punitive clauses.

[classyfast]

Old news.....same as waivers you sign at drag tracks.

[Doctor///M]

Originally Posted by evanevery

I don't know where this info is coming from but it is somewhere between misleading and absolutely incorrect...

I have attended (and still attend) the BMW schools quite often. Both in the U.S. and in Europe (Germany). I have witnessed several accidents at these schools. This includes an M5 sliding offroad into a wall (blowing all airbags) at VIR during a wet braking exercise, an M3 into the front straight wall at Road Atlanta after a high speed mis-negotiation of turn 12, and an M4 rear ending a group of two other M4's at the Ring (3 cars involved - one of which I was in the passenger seat).

In NONE of these events were the students held financially liable for the cars. I know all the drivers involved (some better than others), and no one was billed for any damages. In fact, the students were given replacement vehicles to finish the training once they were checked out and medically cleared (if it was required).

BMW does their very best to help try and minimize damages of any kind but these things do happen and they fully understand that. However, if the event occurred because the student had done something due to a careless or reckless attitude, then I believe BMW might have a different position on the matter, but I've never witnessed that. In fact, the European waiver even specific identifies liability (2500 euro max) if it was reckless/careless.

So, I'm not sure of where this is coming from, but I do 2-3 Advanced Schools a year and I've NEVER heard of anyone actually billed for damages to any vehicles - and I've seen a few...

Anyone know of someone who was actually held liable for vehicular damage at a BMW driving school? If so, what were the details of the event?

The info came from the BMW CCA magazine, which was reviewed by the editor. It's not meant to startle anyone, but to at least let people know that assumptions can't be made when it comes to an accident. It's ultimately up to the student whether they care about this or not, and to ask the right questions to the organizers or their instructors.

Also, I did open the floor to those who actually attended and can chime in with their experiences. Mine was limited to PC delivery.

[FormulaMMM]

Also think it's unfortunate that the provocative homepage headline and letter in the original post could dissuade novice drivers from attending the school.

I never attended BMW's school, but based upon everything I've heard/seen the school's environment is about as safe and instructive a novice environment as you'll find.

[RickFLM4]

I signed up and paid for 1-Day M school last summer and then got the waiver in advance of the event, which I read. It is clearly stated in black and white that you can be held responsible for any damage you cause and that you certify you have insurance coverage. I spoke to someone at the school who told me not to worry. They don't hold people responsible for damage (but I needed to sign the waiver if I wanted to participate).

I called my insurance agent who confirmed I would not be covered. I could not find insurance elsewhere. (No, I did not write the letter to Roundel in post 1.) I have posted this in other threads and no one seemed to remember it being an issue. (I only presume most people just sign the waiver without reading it.). I got a refund and did not participate, which was a huge disappointment. Regardless of what someone tells me on the phone or what I read in testimonials in a forum from people that swear they have seen damage occur and BMW not hold anyone responsible, I can't see signing a waiver like the one BMW requires.

I have no problem paying for insurance. If BMW insists on each person being covered, they should arrange for insurance coverage on each participants' behalf and add it to the cost. Aside from being a reasonable solution for participants it is really the only way BMW can make sure every participant is covered.

Edit: I found the email with the link to the waiver. See 2 and 6:

https://img.postfuture.net/CMPROD/Co...%203-2-15).pdf

[M4 GTS]

I don't remember signing any waiver at Thermal CA last year

[Doctor///M]

***thanks mods for making the necessary edits, but it will still be beneficial to the community to know what the wording is in the waiver***

[Mandi90TT]

Not in reference to this incident, but related, something a couple of posts have referred to: Very few (if any) normal insurance policies cover track day events anymore. USAA used to, but not anymore. If you want track day insurance, you have to buy it from a specialty insurance company.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Doctor///M

***thanks mods for making the necessary edits, but it will still be beneficial to the community to know what the wording is in the waiver***

The link to the waiver should work now.

[Doctor///M]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

Not in reference to this incident, but related, something a couple of posts have referred to: Very few (if any) normal insurance policies cover track day events anymore. USAA used to, but not anymore. If you want track day insurance, you have to buy it from a specialty insurance company.

True. Lockton Motorsports seems to be the go-to for all my recent track day coverage. Even still, some things aren't covered.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

Not in reference to this incident, but related, something a couple of posts have referred to: Very few (if any) normal insurance policies cover track day events anymore. USAA used to, but not anymore. If you want track day insurance, you have to buy it from a specialty insurance company.

I shopped for track day insurance and found options for insuring my own car but not for a car supplied by the school.

[madsbmr]

Damn !! I took the school and glad nothing happened ?

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by miamiten

This is the norm, not an exception to. Every private driving school requires participants to be appropriately licensed and insured as required by the applicable laws of the venue location and the venue's liable entities. Unless something has changed recently, the waiver includes an option to purchase a reduced liability limit. Incidents rarely occur at these types of professionally organized events. As long as the student is not driving in a wreckless manner, the odds of an accident are slim. I did have one Porsche Driving Experience School at Sebring years ago and I was chief instructor for that day as I had arrived early for a weekend of BMWCCA HPDE and club races starting that afternoon. The program was follow the leader style, which I absolutely despise. My fears were realized on the last lap, and one participants arrogance cost 3 people their lives, and destroyed surviving family members as a result of millions in damages awarded from lawsuits. This incident made insurance coverage mandatory for all driving school programs.

Can you direct us to an insurance company that sells such insurance (when using school's car instead of your own)? It is not available through BMW. (I asked.)

[Jono2112]

If you sign a waiver assuming the company won't enforce it you're playing with fire. As soon as a new lawyer for the company sees that waiver after an accident they will have every right to try and enforce it.

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by Doctor///M

The info came from the BMW CCA magazine, which was reviewed by the editor. It's not meant to startle anyone, but to at least let people know that assumptions can't be made when it comes to an accident. It's ultimately up to the student whether they care about this or not, and to ask the right questions to the organizers or their instructors.

Also, I did open the floor to those who actually attended and can chime in with their experiences. Mine was limited to PC delivery.

The fact of the matter is that BMW Driving Schools simply do not hold students liable in this manner. They may have a waiver in the paperwork, but I've NEVER heard of anyone being held accountable for any damages which may have occurred.

If the OP's intent is to "MAKE STUDENTS AWARE" of the situation so they can "make up their minds for themselves", then they would be better served if they knew how the school ACTUALLY operates - and not what the boiler-plate in their agreement says.

The truth is that you DO NOT need to source any additional insurance for the BMW driving schools. I've seen more than a few unfortunate events and I've never heard of anyone ever being charged for damages of any type.

Rather than posting misleading headliner's on Bimmerpost, please tell us of a SINGLE case where anyone has ever been held liable for damages incurred at a BMW driving school. No one is happy about these events, but they do occur, and the staff at the driving school (unlike the source of the OP's info) understands this.

Additional Insurance is quite simply NOT needed or required. I'm hoping more driving school alumni can chime in with their experiences as well...

[vexingv]

I'll second this comment as well. I took a 2-day M School in January and the instructors echoed this sentiment--these are BMW NA's cars, go have fun and push these cars! All the cars are late model M cars with DCT transmission so no way to over-rev. They only allow DSC-off during the drifting exercises. The spacing on the track is also sufficient that there are not any encounters or passing opportunities and if it does become tight, instructors will have drivers slow down or pull into the pits.

One of the instructors was talking about trips to the 'Ring. He compared that program/school to the US programs. In the US, if there is an accident, first they would want to make sure that you're ok, then they would literally get you a new car and tow the other away. At no cost to you. However, in Europe there is a damage deductible. The instructor described how an American had a wreck while participating in 'Ring and the Germans tried to collect a deductible, but it was not on any of the paperwork. This omission has since been amended as I had looked into going to the 'Ring at the end of June with BMW and this deductible was clearly in the correspondence email and the liability forms I received.

Now, I've been talking about damage to their cars, but I'm sure if one were to inflict damage on property, personal/bodily harm to oneself or others, BMW probably won't be able to help there and there is no coverage.

Originally Posted by evanevery

I don't know where this info is coming from but it is somewhere between misleading and absolutely incorrect...

I have attended (and still attend) the BMW schools quite often. Both in the U.S. and in Europe (Germany). I have witnessed several accidents at these schools. This includes an M5 sliding offroad into a wall (blowing all airbags) at VIR during a wet braking exercise, an M3 into the front straight wall at Road Atlanta after a high speed mis-negotiation of turn 12, and an M4 rear ending a group of two other M4's at the Ring (3 cars involved - one of which I was in the passenger seat).

In NONE of these events were the students held financially liable for the cars. I know all the drivers involved (some better than others), and no one was billed for any damages. In fact, the students were given replacement vehicles to finish the training once they were checked out and medically cleared (if it was required).

BMW does their very best to help try and minimize damages of any kind but these things do happen and they fully understand that. However, if the event occurred because the student had done something due to a careless or reckless attitude, then I believe BMW might have a different position on the matter, but I've never witnessed that. In fact, the European waiver even specific identifies liability (2500 euro max) if it was reckless/careless.

So, I'm not sure of where this is coming from, but I do 2-3 Advanced Schools a year and I've NEVER heard of anyone actually billed for damages to any vehicles - and I've seen a few...

Anyone know of someone who was actually held liable for vehicular damage at a BMW driving school? If so, what were the details of the event?