[txusa03]

Originally Posted by dr325i

But numbers are straight forward and don't lie:
- in 2000 the price of gas was $1.26/gal on average and XOM sold ~$200B+ in Revenue
- today, the average price is up more than 2.5x and their revenues are $361B in 2007

Therefore, either XOM is not doing well, or the demand is actually not higher as some would like us to believe...
Revenues and profits are purely driven by the price increase that benefits someone else but us (regular users)...

Generally, report earning don't lie. But company execs can fudge the # a little.

[TurboFan]

Originally Posted by dr325i

Once you show us that the demand went up 300% (as the prices) in the last 6 years, and did not in previous 20 years -- I'll believe your simple concept.

Otherwise -- crap

You have to be the stupidest, most ignorant moron that has ever posted on the internet. You're incessantly short-sighted posts never cease to amaze me. Is your grasp of economics and the free market system so infantile that you think GW or a few oil companies are manipulating the whole system? Is your education so incomplete that you think it takes an increase in demand of 300% to drive prices up 300%? Go take an economics class you ignorant fool! The supply and demand curve is NEVER linear, and for a commodity as sensitive as petroleum...it's beyond your simpleton abilities for comprehension. Honestly doc, what is your level of education and background? Your general ignorance is so overwhelming I sometimes wonder if your not some 14 year old kid dreaming of getting a BMW.

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by TurboFan

You have to be the stupidest, most ignorant moron that has ever posted on the internet. You're incessantly short-sighted posts never cease to amaze me. Is your grasp of economics and the free market system so infantile that you think GW or a few oil companies are manipulating the whole system? Is your education so incomplete that you think it takes an increase in demand of 300% to drive prices up 300%? Go take an economics class you ignorant fool! The supply and demand curve is NEVER linear, and for a commodity as sensitive as petroleum...it's beyond your simpleton abilities for comprehension. Honestly doc, what is your level of education and background? Your general ignorance is so overwhelming I sometimes wonder if your not some 14 year old kid dreaming of getting a BMW.

I thought once I proved that your intelligence is of a monkey, do you want me to do it again???
Read two posts up you idiot, even a monkey like yourself should understand those two simple numbers...

It has nothing to do with the curve linearity, but with the NEGATIVE slope empty headed monkey...

And I never mentioned GW...in this post -- you obsessed lunatic...

TO ADD: read my post you tried to answer to before your small brain cut your focus off -- comparison with the previous period where demand went up much steeper than in the last few years... Linear or not -- you just proved here you have no clue about math and economics basics...

[Maestro]

As much as I would like to gang up on the oil companies and have a fraction of those profits in my pocket too many people have over simplify this issue.

All the following is affecting the price of oil.

Demand is up for oil from countries like China and India
Cost of production is going up, (remember it take fuel to produce and transport fuel)
Supplier has not increased that much (OPEC has not increased their output and production in Alaska is down)
Taxes, this is big part, much of those taxes are a % of the sale not a flat per gallon.
The value of the dollar, if you sold oil do you want to sell to country with a weak currency or one with a strong currency.

You can all get upset with the big bad oil companies or come to understand what is really driving the price up.

Face it they are only making 10% on a very large number, You all would not be upset if there were 10 companies dividing the pot since their individual profits (total $) would less. You're all just up set that 3 companies are splitting a very large pot of money.

What not be more upset with BWM with their 20 to 30% profit margins

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by dr325i

TO ADD: read my post you tried to answer to before your small brain cut your focus off -- comparison with the previous period where demand went up much steeper than in the last few years... Linear or not -- you just proved here you have no clue about math and economics basics...

Not to get in the middle of fight.. but look at this way

You can sell something for $100 and if your profit margin is 10% this will return you $10

or due to market dynamics the price is now $300 and your profit margin is still 10% now returning you $30

So what you are really saying is if the oil companies really cared they would some how cut their profit margin to 3% so they still only made $10

Actually in all practicality, as prices go up and utilization of your capital resource increase since your demand is higher and out stripping your supply you can not help but make more money. Even if they sat there and did nothing but cranked out more oil and gas they would make more money.

The problem is most of us work in industries where the opposite is true meaning that the consumer will not pay more, and we continuing to drive cost down because value of the product continues to decline so either you lose margins or you cut costs.

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by Maestro

Not to get in the middle of fight.. but look at this way

You can sell something for $100 and if your profit margin is 10% this will return you $10

or due to market dynamics the price is now $300 and your profit margin is still 10% now returning you $30

So what you are really saying is if the oil companies really cared they would some how cut their profit margin to 3% so that sill only may $10

Actually in all practicality, as prices go up and utilization of your capital resource increase since your demand is higher and out stripping your supply you can not help but make more money. Even if they sat there and did nothing but cranked out more oil and gas they would make more money.

The problem is most of us work in industries where the opposite is true meaning that the consumer will not pay more, and we continuing to drive cost down because value of the product continues to decline so either you lose margins or you cut costs.

I agree with you on the first part, but that brings it to the core of discussion -- the price increase is not because of the demand (from China or India or wherever) but simply because "they can" and their greed. We're talking record profits for ANY US company, not just a great profit...

Most people here believe it is economics -- supply/demand thing which clearly is not...

[ganeil]

Originally Posted by mrbelk

A couple of points, and while I don't work for a big oil company, my company does do a decent amount of business in the "energy sector":

Oil companies are all huge multinational corporations with tens of thousands of employees and operations all over the globe in some of the most hostile climates on earth.

Yes, the big oil companies earn huge profits, but their gross revenues are also huge. Exxon Mobile's profit _margin_ for 2007 was only 10% (~$40Bn profit on ~$400Bn gross revenue). That is inline, and in many cases, less than the profit margins in many other industries.

Most pension plans for groups like teachers, nurses, firefighters, law enforcement officers, etc. have significant components of their portfolios invested in "big oil." Do you think they are clamoring to their fund managers to divest those holdings in protest? Didn't think so.

Exxon Mobile paid as much in federal taxes in 2006 (~$27Billion) as the bottom 50% of _all_ income earners in the U.S. did in 2004. And the taxable income on which those taxes were paid by Exxon Mobile (~$60Bn or so) was a fraction of the reported income on which they were paid by the bottom 50% (~$900Billion). One corporation paying as much as 50% of the taxpayers in the entire country. Don't tell me that they don't pay their "fair share."

The oil companies don't set the price of any of their products. Those values are determined on the open commodity market. No one had any sympathy for the oil companies when oil was trading at only $15/bbl and they were all losing their shirts. If they had been able, don't you think they would have raised their prices then, like you claim they should lower their prices now?

If you were on the BoD of a large company making tons of money, how would you feel if the Imperial Federal Government of the United States wanted to steal your 100% legally earned profits?

Oh, and like has been already pointed out, government (local, state, federal) makes much more per gallon of gas sold than the oil companies do, especially since the taxes levied are based on the $$$ value of the fuel sold and not on the volume of fuel sold.

Some common sense, please.

-MrB

+1

The market works and the last thing we need is government skewing it any more than it already does.

The claims that there are dark forces controlling the price of gas or that US firms are benefiting from Iraq is just nonsense.

oil is bought and sold in a global marketplace. Producers of oil are no different than others, they will sell their product for the highest price the market will allow.

[ganeil]

Originally Posted by TurboFan

You have to be the stupidest, most ignorant moron that has ever posted on the internet. You're incessantly short-sighted posts never cease to amaze me. Is your grasp of economics and the free market system so infantile that you think GW or a few oil companies are manipulating the whole system? Is your education so incomplete that you think it takes an increase in demand of 300% to drive prices up 300%? Go take an economics class you ignorant fool! The supply and demand curve is NEVER linear, and for a commodity as sensitive as petroleum...it's beyond your simpleton abilities for comprehension. Honestly doc, what is your level of education and background? Your general ignorance is so overwhelming I sometimes wonder if your not some 14 year old kid dreaming of getting a BMW.

Do yourself a favor and put the good dr on your ignore list. His obsessive hatred of the president is impervious to facts or logic. If the facts are against him, he will claim they have been manipulated.

It is not worth the aggravation. My time here is much more pleasant now.

[ska///235i]

yes, but $400 billion gross is way up there cuz of the high gas prices (higher gross = higher net profit ...this is common sense) so lets not be smart and try to make us look dumb
every company and individual pays tax...nothing to argue here

Like I said early in my post....if the prices of gas is high cuz of shortage, then why doesn't the gov. make hybrid engines standard on all future cars? Cuz the Gov is making a shit load of $$$$ from it

Originally Posted by mrbelk

A couple of points, and while I don't work for a big oil company, my company does do a decent amount of business in the "energy sector":

Oil companies are all huge multinational corporations with tens of thousands of employees and operations all over the globe in some of the most hostile climates on earth.

Yes, the big oil companies earn huge profits, but their gross revenues are also huge. Exxon Mobile's profit _margin_ for 2007 was only 10% (~$40Bn profit on ~$400Bn gross revenue). That is inline, and in many cases, less than the profit margins in many other industries.

Most pension plans for groups like teachers, nurses, firefighters, law enforcement officers, etc. have significant components of their portfolios invested in "big oil." Do you think they are clamoring to their fund managers to divest those holdings in protest? Didn't think so.

Exxon Mobile paid as much in federal taxes in 2006 (~$27Billion) as the bottom 50% of _all_ income earners in the U.S. did in 2004. And the taxable income on which those taxes were paid by Exxon Mobile (~$60Bn or so) was a fraction of the reported income on which they were paid by the bottom 50% (~$900Billion). One corporation paying as much as 50% of the taxpayers in the entire country. Don't tell me that they don't pay their "fair share."

The oil companies don't set the price of any of their products. Those values are determined on the open commodity market. No one had any sympathy for the oil companies when oil was trading at only $15/bbl and they were all losing their shirts. If they had been able, don't you think they would have raised their prices then, like you claim they should lower their prices now?

If you were on the BoD of a large company making tons of money, how would you feel if the Imperial Federal Government of the United States wanted to steal your 100% legally earned profits?

Oh, and like has been already pointed out, government (local, state, federal) makes much more per gallon of gas sold than the oil companies do, especially since the taxes levied are based on the $$$ value of the fuel sold and not on the volume of fuel sold.

Some common sense, please.

-MrB

[TurboFan]

Originally Posted by Maestro

As much as I would like to gang up on the oil companies and have a fraction of those profits in my pocket too many people have over simplify this issue.

All the following is affecting the price of oil.

Demand is up for oil from countries like China and India
Cost of production is going up, (remember it take fuel to produce and transport fuel)
Supplier has not increased that much (OPEC has not increased their output and production in Alaska is down)
Taxes, this is big part, much of those taxes are a % of the sale not a flat per gallon.
The value of the dollar, if you sold oil do you want to sell to country with a weak currency or one with a strong currency.

You can all get upset with the big bad oil companies or come to understand what is really driving the price up.

Face it they are only making 10% on a very large number, You all would not be upset if there were 10 companies dividing the pot since their individual profits (total $) would less. You're all just up set that 3 companies are splitting a very large pot of money.

What not be more upset with BWM with their 20 to 30% profit margins

+infinity. The media and general America doesn't want to hear this, because they can't simply point to a person or group to blame, other than themselves. He may have been arrogant, but the exec at Exxon had it right - if you don't like the price, don't drive.

Personally, I'd be fired if I ran my business at 10% margins on operations, let alone 10% margin on sales. My company is a DOW component that returns better than 15% GM on operations, everyone in the country is impacted by our products, and no one is bitching about our profits.

[TurboFan]

Originally Posted by dr325i

I agree with you on the first part, but that brings it to the core of discussion -- the price increase is not because of the demand (from China or India or wherever) but simply because "they can" and their greed. We're talking record profits for ANY US company, not just a great profit...

Most people here believe it is economics -- supply/demand thing which clearly is not...

They are producing record profits on RECORD VOLUME! Where in the world do you get the idea that the oil company is setting the price??? It's openly traded on the mercantile exchange, set in a free market.

So all these cars that are being sold in China and India, where auto sales are growing at an exponential pace - what fuels these cars? Your limitless bullshit?

[TurboFan]

Originally Posted by ganeil

Do yourself a favor and put the good dr on your ignore list. His obsessive hatred of the president is impervious to facts or logic. If the facts are against him, he will claim they have been manipulated.

It is not worth the aggravation. My time here is much more pleasant now.

not a bad idea, but the ignorance he spews is an endless source of entertainment!

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by TurboFan

They are producing record profits on RECORD VOLUME! Where in the world do you get the idea that the oil company is setting the price??? It's openly traded on the mercantile exchange, set in a free market.

So all these cars that are being sold in China and India, where auto sales are growing at an exponential pace - what fuels these cars? Your limitless bullshit?

How is that???
2007 revenues (XOM) = $361B @ $3/gallon
2000 revenues (XOM) = $200+B @ $1.3/gallon

How do you come up with the record volumes???

Stop embarrasing yourself with the basics...

[TurboFan]

Originally Posted by dr325i

How is that???
2007 revenues (XOM) = $361B @ $3/gallon
2000 revenues (XOM) = $200+B @ $1.3/gallon

How do you come up with the record volumes???

Stop embarrasing yourself with the basics...

Do you have any idea what these companies produce, how their products are sold, where they are sold, and what makes up their numbers? From your post above, you clearly believe that all the profit comes from selling gasoline. You're even more ignorant than I thought.

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by dr325i

I agree with you on the first part, but that brings it to the core of discussion -- the price increase is not because of the demand (from China or India or wherever) but simply because "they can" and their greed. We're talking record profits for ANY US company, not just a great profit...

Most people here believe it is economics -- supply/demand thing which clearly is not...

Again I have to disagree, have you been to China or India in the last 10 yrs. 10 yrs ago hardly anyone in both those countries drove a car especially in China.

I was on China just last year and was in 3 major cities and I was so surprised how many cars were on their roads, let along how many highways they now have. China in the last 10 yrs has added more high miles they now have the second largest highway system in the world next to the US. Also one city I was in they were adding 800 new drivers to their roads daily. You can image the mess on the roads that causes.

Oh, guess what, gas in china is not increasing as fast as it is in the US, wonder why, the government has fixed the value of their currency, and controls the price of gas, even with the US demand for Gas staying flat for the most part, China's demand is increasing there by driving up the cost for crude oil.

Remember the big three are not the only producer of oil, you got the middle east, south america, (which rather do business with China then the US) Russia, and some other places and smaller producers all putting their product on the open market. Yes the big 3 can influence the market, but they can not control it to this point.

But most important we americans do not like not being the largest consumer in the world their by setting market pricing. we now have to compete with our market drivers.

Trust me I hate that I am paying $3+ a gallon, and the fact that my monthly gas bill went from $150 - $200 to almost $500 a months and my grocery bill went from $500 to $750 a months and dinning out with the family went from $30 for family of 4 to over $50.

All these increases are simple because the US is now competing with 2 other very large country for the same oil.

Also, it was record profits for the oil companies which goes back to my simple equation, 10% of an increasing total sales is always going to be bigger. Remember total sales dollar has increase so net profits will increase as well unless your a stupid company and have not figure how to keep your costs in line.

Anyway, I believe WalMart had record profits too, someone will correct me if I am wrong, oh Apple too had record profits too lets hang them too.

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by TurboFan

Do you have any idea what these companies produce, how their products are sold, where they are sold, and what makes up their numbers? From your post above, you clearly believe that all the profit comes from selling gasoline. You're even more ignorant than I thought.

WOW, you keep subtracting it from your IQ...with every post, keep it coming, lets see how low it can get...
No matter what else is in the option (and I agree that they deal with other things), there is NO WAY that the volumes increased by the HUGE amounts, and magically they stop selling everything else they did in 2000, and that would not be convincing as the majority of their income/revenue indeed comes from the sales of oil/gas (73% in 2000 for example). Only that way your theory stands -- just like your other comments -- see it black and white, and whatever O'Riley tells you...

Bottom line, I ask you again, show us how Exxon sold considerably more (200+%) quantities of gas in 2007 over 2000 and you proved it all...

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by Maestro

Again I have to disagree, have you been to China or India in the last 10 yrs. 10 yrs ago hardly anyone in both those countries drove a car especially in China.

I was on China just last year and was in 3 major cities and I was so surprised how many cars were on their road, let along how many highways they now have. China in the last 10 yrs has added more high mile they now have the second largest highway system in the world next to the US. Also one city I was in they were adding 800 new drivers to their roads daily. You can image the mess on the roads that causes.

Oh, guess what, gas in china is not increasing as fast as it is in the US, wonder why, the government has fixed the value of their currency, and controls the price of gas, even with the US demand for Gas staying flat for the most part, China's demand is increasing there by driving up the cost for crude oil.

Remember the big three are not the only producer of oil, you got the middle east, south america, (which rather do business with China then the US) Russia, and some other places and smaller producers all putting their product on the open market. Yes the big 3 can influence the market, but they can not control it to this point.

Trust me I hate that I am paying $3+ a gallon, and the fact that my monthly gas bill went from $150 - $200 to almost $500 a months and my grocery bill went from $500 to $750 a months and dinning out with the family went from $30 for family of 4 to over $50.

All these increases are simple because the US is now competing with 2 other very large country for the same oil.

Also, it was record profits for the oil companies which goes back to my simple equation, 10% of an increasing total sales is always going to be bigger. Remember total sales dollar has increase so net profits will increase as well unless your a stupid company and have not figure how to keep your costs in line.

Anyway, I believe WalMart had record profits too, someone will correct me if I am wrong, oh Apple too had record profits too lets hang them too.

I lived in China in 2006/06.
I started business with China and India in 1998...
Yes I have seen the increases...
I was born in Europe and lived there for 20 years and visit "home" every year. I have seen the increase in cars there.

I have seen the prices trends all over the world and nowhere seen it as steep as here...particulary in the last 6-7 years...

This is not the Apple vs. Wal Mart. We can live without those, unfortunately not that easily without the cars and companies use that... I'd react the same if a loaf of bread were to be $8 in 3 years, or a gallon of milk $12.
I don't give rats ass if the iPod is $2k...

[txusa03]

Don't forget, mother nature also has a hand in this as well. Everytime there is a hurricane out in the gulf, I see the price of gas slowly inching up.

Is that why the good dr move to florida? But I think Jeff Bush is the gov. of florida (can't really run away from GW blood).

Too early to be reading all this

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by txusa03

Don't forget, mother nature also has a hand in this as well. Everytime there is a hurricane out in the gulf, I see the price of gas slowly inching up.

Is that why the good dr move to florida? But I think Jeff Bush is the gov. of florida (can't really run away from GW blood).

Too early to be reading all this

Who's Jeff Bush?
No, he's not the Gov of FL since a few years ago... However, Crist is very similar to the GW blood...but at least not embarrassing for the state/country...

yep, too early

[txusa03]

Originally Posted by dr325i

Who's Jeff Bush?
No, he's not the Gov of FL since a few years ago... However, Crist is very similar to the GW blood...but at least not embarrassing for the state/country...

yep, too early

did I spelled his name wrong (geoff) maybe...

[TurboFan]

I think it was Jeb down there, but they finally figured out how to punch a ballot in FL and voted his ass out.

[ganeil]

Originally Posted by TurboFan

I think it was Jeb down there, but they finally figured out how to punch a ballot in FL and voted his ass out.

Actually Jeb was term limited to the two successful terms he served as Governor of Florida. No one "voted his ass out" but he left office as a very popular governor.