[Sea-Tac]

[QUOTE=bimmer456;23296480]

Originally Posted by Sea-Tac

It's all relative to how much you made after graduation. If it costs as much as a house to go to grad school versus costing as much as a car it may not be worth it at some point cost is a consideration when you can get the same experience for much less.

I agree. Earnings are relative to education levels of course. They are also relative to a lot of other things as well.

Cost is a very legitimate consideration among many legitimate considerations before starting under graduate or graduate work.

But...

Its more than earnings and costs. A higher education whether private or public, inexpensive or expensive opens many doors and creates different opportunities, exposures and approaches to life. I call these the intangibles. You can’t always put your finger on it, but you know its there.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Habs11

This ^ with a lot of grains of salt.

1) School is more about what you put into it than anything else. I attended both Public and Private and came across under and over performers at each.

2) Your career is more about what you put into it than where you go to school. Although a big name school will open some doors that a public school will not, your ability and work ethic will drive your success more than the school you attend.

The figures quoted above are "substantial" for a reason and IMO it's not the schools or funds spent that created the differential, rather the student body that selected the schooling. Meaning I believe there is a weak causation of school selected and future earnings - again IMO the causation or correlation is with the individual making the selection and not the selection made.

These are simple statistics based on actual educational attainment vs. income. School selection has very little to do with these statistics. Overall, a person with a formal education from a 4 year college/university does better financially than those without. In an above post, there are personal stratifications based on individual experiences but for playing the odds, a 4 year degree is a passport to a better lifestyle.

Hard work, connections, luck (yes luck), etc. actually play very important roles with, IMHO, hard work and luck taking the top spots. Keeping in mind, "the harder you work, the luckier you get", shows up in many forms. While others may disagree, this has certainly been my experience.

Cheers-mk

[Sea-Tac]

Originally Posted by JamesWWIII

If you attend grad school in the hard sciences and they aren’t paying you, you’re doing something wrong.

It’s not like med or law school, there’s no student loan debt waiting for you at the end of the road to a PhD. There might not be the primo job you were anticipating either, but that’s a whole other kettle of fish.

Thats a real good point and spot on. The sciences at the graduate level and post doc level many times offer direct career paths not seen in other grad courses. This is particularly true for women in research, medicine, bio-sciences and to a degree in the physical sciences.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by fravel

Unless one receives a scholarship and/or has someone else footing the bill for tuition, undergrad/grad school are both scams regardless of private vs public.

Learn a trade, name your price.

My friend, the statistics speak differently. On a micro level, you may be correct, but overall, education attainment means a better living and quality of life.

There are specialized welders in my area who make $85-$100 per hour. It's a great living but not sustainable and you are literally 1 error, not necessarily yours, away from permanent disability. And while I realize that this is the exception and not the rule, I have 2 HS classmates who died on petrochemical job sites from a graduating class of only 72. I'm not denigrating trades, far from it...I think there is a serious need for a more defined pathway for HS students who don't want to attend university. It isn't for everyone but it certainly has advantages both statistically and on an individualized basis.

Cheers-mk

[Sea-Tac]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

These are simple statistics based on actual educational attainment vs. income. School selection has very little to do with these statistics. Overall, a person with a formal education from a 4 year college/university does better financially than those without. In an above post, there are personal stratifications based on individual experiences but for playing the odds, a 4 year degree is a passport to a better lifestyle.

Hard work, connections, luck (yes luck), etc. actually play very important roles with, IMHO, hard work and luck taking the top spots. Keeping in mind, "the harder you work, the luckier you get", shows up in many forms. While others may disagree, this has certainly been my experience.

Cheers-mk

You're dead right. I have three very beautiful pieces of sheepskin, but without some hard fought for and earned "luck" I wouldn't be where I am today. I am thankful for my education...and I didn't do it alone. My Mom and Dad who kicked me in the ass more than a few thousand times pushed me forward too. (Most likely to just get rid of me I think).

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Sea-Tac

You're dead right. I have three very beautiful pieces of sheepskin, but without some hard fought for and earned "luck" I wouldn't be where I am today. I am thankful for my education...and I didn't do it alone. My Mom and Dad who kicked me in the ass more than a few thousand times pushed me forward too. (Most likely to just get rid of me I think).

Same. I got my my graduate fellowship when I was walking down the hall in my undergrad building I volunteering to help set up the computer lab in the building. Had I not turned evil capitalist (), I had a full ride for a PhD with Gallup based on statistical work I did in grad school with the census bureau.

My parents did the same a few million times. I'm the prototypical middle child.

[aozer]

Originally Posted by R3dliner

Invest in crypto and fly to the moon

My nephew just got into UC Berkeley and I'm not too keen on westcoast schools besides cal tech and Sanford but he was telling me competition is unreal even getting into Berkeley from which I always thought was a very prestigious SUNY.

not sure what he is planning to study but berkeley is one of the best schools you can go to for computer/electrical engineering or related fields. it carries way more weight than any ivy league degree.

[Sea-Tac]

Originally Posted by fravel

Unless one receives a scholarship and/or has someone else footing the bill for tuition, undergrad/grad school are both scams regardless of private vs public.

Learn a trade, name your price.

To a point I agree with you. I don't agree in general terms that all colleges or grad schools are scams.

What I see as educational scams are these on-line unaccredited colleges offering degrees in life experiences,...total ripoff as are the on-line schools and brick and mortar schools for that matter that offer accelerated bachelor's degrees so you can finish college in two years. Expensive and worthless.

Trade schools are important and are excellent choices for a lot of people.

[Sea-Tac]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Same. I got my my graduate fellowship when I was walking down the hall in my undergrad building I volunteering to help set up the computer lab in the building. Had I not turned evil capitalist (), I had a full ride for a PhD with Gallup based on statistical work I did in grad school with the census bureau.

My parents did the same a few million times. I'm the prototypical middle child.

I'm the middle kid too (my sister and brother were perfect--absolutely perfect children).

Being the middle child, as I am sure you would agree, gave me the opportunity know many important things like - what the inside of a jail looked like. I know this times 3.

My Dad, God rest his soul, was a poker playing buddy of our local police Chief - Chief Sweeney (who looked a lot like Jackie Gleeson). He got me out of jail twice. Once for "joy riding" in the parish priest's Chevy with 3 friends and a dog (Bless me father for I have sinned...thank you for not pressing charges) and then being underage and intoxicated. The third time (being underage and intoxicated with 40 M80's and a half bottle of Jack), he told them to keep me there over night. Which in many ways planted the formative seeds for my legal education and a great appreciation of functioning toilets.

All education is important.

[Sea-Tac]

Originally Posted by aozer

not sure what he is planning to study but berkeley is one of the best schools you can go to for computer/electrical engineering or related fields. it carries way more weight than any ivy league degree.

Congratulations!! But a correction: UC Berkeley is the finest school in the country.

Go Bears!!

[Sea-Tac]

Originally Posted by R3dliner

If you go to a private college for a liberal arts degree then it's a waste of $$.
If you're in finance or health care, private colleagues will carry a better name and prestige and have better networking.
Ex. NYU here is very prestigious and the name carries itself better and than any SUNY.

OP what's your major you are talking about? Maybe that will narrow your answers down.

One should never underestimate the importance of a liberal arts degree. We wouldn't have a democratic party without it. I agree, as I think you would too, that the country would certainly be a better place with nothing but business grads from Wharton.

[Sea-Tac]

[YT]

[/YT]

[R3dliner]

Originally Posted by Sea-Tac

One should never underestimate the importance of a liberal arts degree. We wouldn't have a democratic party without it. I agree, as I think you would too, that the country would certainly be a better place with nothing but business grads from Wharton.

I agree but I have friends that shelled out 50k plus on private institutions only to be a teacher in the dept of education with a very low starting salary. They are struggling. They could have went to a public school and got the same job with substantially less debt.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Sea-Tac

I'm the middle kid too (my sister and brother were perfect--absolutely perfect children).

Being the middle child, as I am sure you would agree, gave me the opportunity know many important things like - what the inside of a jail looked like. I know this times 3.

My Dad, God rest his soul, was a poker playing buddy of our local police Chief - Chief Sweeney (who looked a lot like Jackie Gleeson). He got me out of jail twice. Once for "joy riding" in the parish priest's Chevy with 3 friends and a dog (Bless me father for I have sinned...thank you for not pressing charges) and then being underage and intoxicated. The third time (being underage and intoxicated with 40 M80's and a half bottle of Jack), he told them to keep me there over night. Which in many ways planted the formative seeds for my legal education and a great appreciation of functioning toilets.

All education is important.

Good lessons. I've never been arrested before but came close once for, "extreme speeding" (big surprise). Plenty of academic trouble originating with girl trouble (too many) and partying (see girl trouble). I outgrew that and after some tough love from many sources, got it straight.

Now sitting in a meeting with my attorney discussing an HR issue. I have to manage the trouble now!!

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Sea-Tac

One should never underestimate the importance of a liberal arts degree. We wouldn't have a democratic party without it. I agree, as I think you would too, that the country would certainly be a better place with nothing but business grads from Wharton.

You know it, I know it, everybody knows it.

[Sea-Tac]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

You know it, I know it, everybody knows it.

Shakespeare, too, wrote to be appreciated on many different levels.

[Sea-Tac]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Good lessons. I've never been arrested before but came close once for, "extreme speeding" (big surprise). Plenty of academic trouble originating with girl trouble (too many) and partying (see girl trouble). I outgrew that and after some tough love from many sources, got it straight.

Now sitting in a meeting with my attorney discussing an HR issue. I have to manage the trouble now!!

1. You should never discuss anything with an attorney. They can't be trusted; and

2. Remind me some time to tell you what happened when Chief Jesuit , i.e. Fr. Principal, in my high school recommended to my parents that I needed counseling and the crazy girl I met at the therapists office...

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Sea-Tac

Shakespeare, too, wrote to be appreciated on many different levels.

Out, out, damn spot. I say that to my attorney all the time. Hasn't worked yet!!

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Sea-Tac

1. You should never discuss anything with an attorney. They can't be trusted; and

2. Remind me some time to tell you what happened when Chief Jesuit , i.e. Fr. Principal, in my high school recommended to my parents that I needed counseling and the crazy girl I met at the therapists office...

We'll have to trade private/parochial school stories at some point. Always the best because of the creativity in getting into trouble. The best I've heard, to date, involves a helicopter. No joke...a helicopter.

[fravel]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

My friend, the statistics speak differently. On a micro level, you may be correct, but overall, education attainment means a better living and quality of life.

There are specialized welders in my area who make $85-$100 per hour. It's a great living but not sustainable and you are literally 1 error, not necessarily yours, away from permanent disability. And while I realize that this is the exception and not the rule, I have 2 HS classmates who died on petrochemical job sites from a graduating class of only 72. I'm not denigrating trades, far from it...I think there is a serious need for a more defined pathway for HS students who don't want to attend university. It isn't for everyone but it certainly has advantages both statistically and on an individualized basis.

Cheers-mk

With all due respect, the data you provided was compiled in 2004 and would have had to have been the results of the previous 40 years (read: when college was cheap). For the modern college student without scholarships or outside funding, $80k-$100k in student loans just for a bachelors is quickly becoming the norm. Factoring in interest over 20-30 years and whatever supposed advantage one has over a high school grad goes out the window. Who cares if you make an extra half a mil over your lifetime, that half a mil just let you pay off your debt. All you accomplished was delaying your entrance into the workforce.

What you "earn" on paper doesn't matter...what you get to keep is what determines your quality of life.

Originally Posted by Sea-Tac

To a point I agree with you. I don't agree in general terms that all colleges or grad schools are scams.

What I see as educational scams are these on-line unaccredited colleges offering degrees in life experiences,...total ripoff as are the on-line schools and brick and mortar schools for that matter that offer accelerated bachelor's degrees so you can finish college in two years. Expensive and worthless.

Trade schools are important and are excellent choices for a lot of people.

Our country is desperate for skilled tradesmen, unfortunately our youth have been sold snake oil that a degree is their ticket to a better life.

[Sea-Tac]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Out, out, damn spot. I say that to my attorney all the time. Hasn't worked yet!!

I hope you aren't sleep walking through the castle with blood on your hands too...

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by fravel

With all due respect, the data you provided was compiled in 2004 and would have had to have been the results of the previous 40 years (read: when college was cheap). For the modern college student without scholarships or outside funding, $80k-$100k in student loans just for a bachelors is quickly becoming the norm. Factoring in interest over 20-30 years and whatever supposed advantage one has over a high school grad goes out the window. Who cares if you make an extra half a mil over your lifetime, that half a mil just let you pay off your debt. All you accomplished was delaying your entrance into the workforce.

What you "earn" on paper doesn't matter...what you get to keep is what determines your quality of life.



Our country is desperate for skilled tradesmen, unfortunately our youth have been sold snake oil that a degree is their ticket to a better life.

Even the more recent data says the same.

http://www.hamiltonproject.org/paper...eir_lifetimes/

I'm discussing earning by educational attainment, not savings and efficiency. Overall, those that have a college education earn more. There are, naturally, outliers but the trend is unmistakable.

I completely agree that more trades are needed. Desperately.