[Brainofjjj]

great information, thanks guys. So many good ideas it's tough to decide. In the end i need to determine my goals and how much i can drive a dedicated track car. I love Spec Miatas and have seen them run with Vipers/Vettes/997s. But i love bm's as well...

[goofygrin]

Originally Posted by westwest888

e36 M3 is probably the best track car I've ever ridden in. These cars are really under appreciated. You can strip them down to about 2700 pounds. They're loud, they're raw, they pull hard, you can rotate them with the throttle.

Yesterday at an AutoX I was at, there was an SM E36 M3 putting down some VERY stout times. The interior was not stripped, but he'd obviously swapped some suspension bits and had sticky tires on. VERY capable and was only a couple ticks slower than the fastest cars (Vipers, Z06, etc.) on a HP friendly layout.

[DrDomer]

You could also go the Skip Barber route. I have a neurosurgeon friend who is a little nervous taking his Porsche Turbo out to the track, so he drives open wheel Skip Barber. Just need to show up to drive. You do have to take some classes, etc.. (a good idea anyway). It also gets a little pricey.

http://www.skipbarber.com/

[longodj]

Originally Posted by grkmec

I am thinking about picking up a stripped 135 next spring and dropping a few thousand in mods (JB3 or V3, coilovers, catless exhaust, intake) and pulling off the RE30's w/ PS2's off my 335xi. That should be a track monster for around $30k-32k.

Thoughts?

I love how 75% of those mods are engine mods...I've learned (through this subforum) that the nut behind the steering wheel is the best engine mod.

[leftcoastman]

Guys, for learning, I REALLY REALLY like the stock 335i. If anything, get 17s and put some street rubber on there to save you money.

The car is soooo forgiving and has far more in it than most intermediate drivers can dish out.

Once you get better, you'll want to upgrade bits. Camber plates and coilovers are the first place to start, LSD next and then you can play with power. You will NEED a cooling upgrade or else you will have overheating issues. As a beginner/intermediate with a stock 6MT with factory oil cooler, you should be ok for quite a while.

I rode in a 135i on track. Reminds me of a mini. It did this weird abrupt transition from pushing like a pig to snapping into hooligan oversteer. Very hard to drive at the limit, I'd think.

[jahwerx]

Originally Posted by satakal

Final thought... If I was at the track in a a z06 or R8 or ferrari and I had to point by a 135, I'd be pissed!

+1

I'm doing the 3-day skip barber class next month Mazdaspeed Miata (oh, pardon me "MX5") and I may choose to go that route.

Everything the wise people who have raced a while have said that if I keep doing what I am with my 335 I need to focus on add'l safety bits (and no, a detachable harness bar won't cut the mustard)

I can't compromise my daily driver and turn it into a race car. I need something cheaper too.

Miata's rock.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

Skip Barber....It also gets a little pricey.

Apparently it is around ~$3000/weekend to do a Spec Miata race with Skip Barber. Definitely not the absolutely cheapest way to do things but you get to 'arrive and drive' like a pro, get telemetry analysis coaching, catered lunch.. the works

Re: 'best track car ever ridden in'... 200+hp caterham seven hands down. Fantastic car

Re: stock 335 as great for learning.. at the risk of sounding like a fan boi of my own car..... [fan boi] I think the stock 328i with ZSP works just as well because you can't use power as a crutch (obvious because there's isn't much power). In exchange for not having the big power you'll save money because you probably will not need a LSD, extra cooling mods, and it is slightly easier on the tires since it is lighter. [/fan boi]

[jahwerx]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

You could also go the Skip Barber route. I have a neurosurgeon friend who is a little nervous taking his Porsche Turbo out to the track, so he drives open wheel Skip Barber. Just need to show up to drive. You do have to take some classes, etc.. (a good idea anyway). It also gets a little pricey.

http://www.skipbarber.com/

Ah ha - funny - just caught up to this part of the thread - The event I'm doing September 5-7 (at some no-name place near Chicago) is $1000 Cheaper than the prestigious courses - Check it out!

Its called "autobahn country club" and right on skip's website. Full three days or real racing school for $2,199 (since I scored a 20% discount on top of their list prices!)

[TSM330i]

Originally Posted by grkmec

I am thinking about picking up a stripped 135 next spring and dropping a few thousand in mods (JB3 or V3, coilovers, catless exhaust, intake) and pulling off the RE30's w/ PS2's off my 335xi. That should be a track monster for around $30k-32k.

Thoughts?

Wheels won't fit. I think they're a completely different offset from the 3-series. http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3940

Also, for the track the last thing you want to do is engine work. Brakes are usually the first thing to upgrade. If you can't stop, it doesn't matter how much HP you have.

[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by jahwerx

Ah ha - funny - just caught up to this part of the thread - The event I'm doing September 5-7 (at some no-name place near Chicago) is $1000 Cheaper than the prestigious courses - Check it out!

Its called "autobahn country club" and right on skip's website. Full three days or real racing school for $2,199 (since I scored a 20% discount on top of their list prices!)

I did a half day course at Autobahn with their 335i's for $500. I'm going to Autobahn on the 18th for a track day with my car. That's only $200.

The Skip Barber stuff I was referring to was open wheel racing. It gets to be in the $6-7K range for a full weekend of practice, etc.

[jahwerx]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

I did a half day course with their 335i's for $500. I'm going to Autobahn on the 18th for a track day with my car. That's only $200.

The Skip Barber stuff I was referring to was open wheel racing. It gets to be in the $6-7K range for a full weekend of practice, etc.

Open wheel is same as the sports cars . . . 3 days of school for $3-$4k list price depending on the track and dates.

Are you refering to actually participating in the racing series?

[S4to335]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

Guys, for learning, I REALLY REALLY like the stock 335i. If anything, get 17s and put some street rubber on there to save you money.

The car is soooo forgiving and has far more in it than most intermediate drivers can dish out.

Once you get better, you'll want to upgrade bits. Camber plates and coilovers are the first place to start, LSD next and then you can play with power. You will NEED a cooling upgrade or else you will have overheating issues. As a beginner/intermediate with a stock 6MT with factory oil cooler, you should be ok for quite a while.

I rode in a 135i on track. Reminds me of a mini. It did this weird abrupt transition from pushing like a pig to snapping into hooligan oversteer. Very hard to drive at the limit, I'd think.

I good friend of mine that has won numerous races (in E36 M3s) just bought a 135i. I am curious as to what it he gonna do with it. He installed my PSS9s on my 335.

[grkmec]

Originally Posted by longodj

I love how 75% of those mods are engine mods...I've learned (through this subforum) that the nut behind the steering wheel is the best engine mod.

I wanna go fast... shake and bake

[longodj]

Originally Posted by grkmec

I wanna go fast... shake and bake

"Go slow to go fast" I have no engine mods (unless you count my dual cones...pssh) and on the long single infield course at Pocono a Corvette with double my horsepower whipped by me out of a corner onto a long straight and then took a less optimal line on the NASCAR bend and had to watch me blow by him on the second straight. Your engine power means next to nothing on track besides making it a bit more fun

[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by jahwerx

Open wheel is same as the sports cars . . . 3 days of school for $3-$4k list price depending on the track and dates.

Are you refering to actually participating in the racing series?

Yes. Sorry. He actually put one into a wall. That cost him about $3000 to fix. He said the weekend cost him $10K. So I just figured the rest was $6-7K. To compare, I can drive a full season in a TAG Kart (non-competitively) for that. I might get a few hours total of track time every few months in a car. I get a few hours of track time every two weeks in my kart. My driving skills have improved quite a bit. Karts don't exactly behave like a car with a suspension, but you learn car control driving skills pretty quick when you're flying around in something that weighs 180lbs (without the driver) but has 28.5HP. I could go on.. but getting off topic. Sorry.

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by westwest888

On a 10 to 20 turn track, the 325i will hang with 335i and e46 M3 no problem. Those cars have to dissipate and accelerate an additional 350+ pounds of power seats, intercooler, oil cooler, turbos, piping, exhaust, idrive, etc.

Not so sure if I agree with this. I've been to a handful of BMW schools and those cars are almost always represented, so I have more than one data point. I will take my car out of the comparison because I've done a bit of track prep.

But stock for stock, given equivalent drivers, on the average 1.8-2.5 mile road course, the E46 M3 and 335i are basically in a dead heat. The 325, while holding its own, is clearly unable to hang with the former two.

The 350+ pounds additional is being supported by much larger brakes, much larger tires and nearly 50% more power. For you econ types, the marginal benefits clearly outweigh the marginal cost.

That said, I would much rather improve balance, suspension damping and camber before adding power mods, because I believe someone who focuses on the former will eat the power mod guy alive. Mostly because power allows you to be sloppy because you can mask your mistakes by hammering the gas on the straights.

[grkmec]

Originally Posted by longodj

"Go slow to go fast" I have no engine mods (unless you count my dual cones...pssh) and on the long single infield course at Pocono a Corvette with double my horsepower whipped by me out of a corner onto a long straight and then took a less optimal line on the NASCAR bend and had to watch me blow by him on the second straight. Your engine power means next to nothing on track besides making it a bit more fun

I hear ya... I was making a reference to Talladega Nights

[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

Not so sure if I agree with this. I've been to a handful of BMW schools and those cars are almost always represented, so I have more than one data point. I will take my car out of the comparison because I've done a bit of track prep.

But stock for stock, given equivalent drivers, on the average 1.8-2.5 mile road course, the E46 M3 and 335i are basically in a dead heat. The 325, while holding its own, is clearly unable to hang with the former two.

The 350+ pounds additional is being supported by much larger brakes, much larger tires and nearly 50% more power. For you econ types, the marginal benefits clearly outweigh the marginal cost.

That said, I would much rather improve balance, suspension damping and camber before adding power mods, because I believe someone who focuses on the former will eat the power mod guy alive. Mostly because power allows you to be sloppy because you can mask your mistakes by hammering the gas on the straights.

I agree with this. This is why you see Miata's beating high HP cars around a track. They carry so much speed through corners that their exit speed is better than a sloppily driven high hp competitor. Master a lower hp vehicle first, then move up (imho). You see TONS of rich guys with no driving experience beating the crap out of some poor Viper not waving by the guy in his Miata who is slamming on his brakes cuz the Viper guy is slow. Sometimes there is too much going on too fast in the high hp cars that you don't develop good driving habits. Of course, once you know what you're doing... a similar vehicle with more HP is going to be faster if handling is constant.

[leftcoastman]

It's a silly argument, but I guess we'll agree to disagree.

I have multiple data points that shows a STOCK 335i is identical to a STOCK E46M3 on the track and that a 325 cannot hang. This is via comparatively similar students and also instructors who drove sold an M3 for the 335i. Same lap time, within the 1 second statistical noise I'm allowing. The 325 may win a single lap if the 335i owner blows a few corners really badly, but overall, there really isn't a comparison.

Hell, if a guy in a Ferrari F430 blows a corner and spends 2-3 seconds trying to correct his mistake, a freaking Spec Miata will eat him alive. Seen it happen.

Personally, I don't know the fascination behind the Porsches (unless we're talking GT3) and the M cars. They built a great brand that people are willing to pay more for. My suggestion would be to start with a stock 335i and slowly modify it over time as your skill level increases.

My point is that the 335i is a great car to start out with ---something that you won't outgrow.

I will guarantee you that a well modified 335i (~10-15k) will outlap a 997S and embarrass a E9x M3 on the road course. I have done it more than once, in my instructor group.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

I have multiple data points that shows a STOCK 335i is identical to a STOCK E46M3 on the track and that a 325 cannot hang.


I will guarantee you that a well modified 335i (~10-15k) will outlap a 997S and embarrass a E9x M3 on the road course. I have done it more than once, in my instructor group.

Yes, I also (unfortunately) agree that with similar drivers non turbo E90 can't hang with the stock 335 and stock E46M3. There is too much power difference.

leftcoastman what are your thoughts on the Subaru STi and Lancer EVO?

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

Yes, I also (unfortunately) agree that with similar drivers non turbo E90 can't hang with the stock 335 and stock E46M3. There is too much power difference.

leftcoastman what are your thoughts on the Subaru STi and Lancer EVO?

Can't say much. I've ridden in students' Evos and STis, but haven't driven one myself. Coming from my earlier open diff, I was very jealous of their ability to power out of turns.

They felt different. Fast, for sure. I don't like em because I couldn't (granted it was from the "other seat") get the car to rotate. I told him to lift lightly in a decreasing radius turn, where I normally lift to get the car to rotate. In his STi, the damn thing just kept pushing.

S4to335i went from an AWD to OWD (one wheel drive), so he'll be able to answer this question better. He'll be objective, as long as he doesn't start thinking about his one wheel peels on corner exit. At that point, smoke starts coming out his ears.

[DrDomer]

You guys agree, and you don't even know it. We all know driver skill is most important. If you spend your money on track time you will be faster than if you spend money on an ecu upgrade, tires, and suspension. So obviously Mario Andretti driving a 325i is going to kill me in my 335i. But give Mario both cars, and his laps times will be far better in the 335i.