[jblood]

Reinstalled charged battery (measured 12.8V outside of car).
As soon as battery connections were made, the clicking started and the car on stand symbol appeared on dash.

Voltage measurement (taken from under hood terminals) was 12.2 after install and 12.1 after starting engine and turning off.

Voltage when running is ~14.5V.

I think I'll remove JBE and "sleep" with it next this weekend. Any progress on your end Jeff?

[jblood]

Originally Posted by Pladi

You are a methodical guy surprised your approach here is on what you have heard. Its easy to check. Bad grounding can cause all types of issues and the weather could be related or coincidence.

Which Ground Strap?

[JeffKim]

I listened to the clicking noise this morning but couldn't isolate it. I wouldn't rule out the JBE as Jim suggested.

[JeffKim]

... I will be excited to hear the result of sleeping with the JBE. Jim, is it a PIA to remove?

If that's the problem, it appears that used ones aren't too expensive - $50 or so. However, it has to be re-coded which looks a little complex to a novice like me.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by JeffKim

I listened to the clicking noise this morning but couldn't isolate it. I wouldn't rule out the JBE as Jim suggested. I will be excited to hear the result of sleeping with the JBE. Jim, is it a PIA to remove?

Jeff, you and Jim seem to BOTH be describing a "clicking" noise that is consistent with relay contacts opening & closing, or chattering. If that is the case, I don't think the clicking noise is coming from the JBE, as there are NO relays in that, just electronics. If the Kl.30g removable relay is NOT the source of the clicking, I would suggest trying to determine if the clicking is coming from the JB itself, just above the terminal 30g relay.

As suggested earlier, I believe the FIRST step at this point should be trying to identify the SOURCE of the clicking sound, BEFORE removing or replacing ANYTHING. The part about taking the Kl.30g inside overnight was just a silly suggestion by ME, as that is quickly removed, and it's quicker to do that than do electrical testing. NOT so for the JBE or JB.

So if you have a cheap Mechanic's Stethoscope, or simply use a 2' to 3' length of garden hose or such with one end at various spots on the JB and the other end to your ear, you can probably pinpoint the "clicking" SOURCE. If you have INPA, you could read the Kl.15 Voltage Parameter in Real Time (as well as the Kl.30g Voltage), and see if it fluctuates when you hear the clicking. That screen in INPA, connected to CAS Module, is: CAS > F5 Status > F2 Analog Status > F1 Status CAS Diagnose Terminals (Klemmen).

Bentley describes the Kl.15 Relay, aka Terminal 15 or Ignition Relay, as soldered to the JB circuit board, in an area just above the Kl.30g relay. Although TIS does NOT give any specific information about that relay location or replacement for models built AFTER 3/1/2007, it does show a location for earlier models, as indicated in the following links:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...nal-15/RLRb8pe
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...30g/1VnYuo3ZrW

Perhaps the reason Bentley only talks about the Kl.15 relay for earlier models is the fact that TIS fails to include any "Installation Location" for models after 3/1/2007. However we KNOW there IS a Kl.15 relay, that lights up the instrument cluster each time we press START without pressing Brake Pedal, and it is shown in the "Terminal Control" schematic, IO1069, next to IO1068 (30g Relay); we just don't know WHERE :
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...inals/AFnfXKzP

In the 2.5 years I have followed this & Bimmerfest forums, I have NEVER seen anyone describe HOW that relay can be accessed, NOR have I seen any commentary about fixing issues related to that relay or replacing it. If it IS soldered to the circuit board, and THAT relay is the source of the "chatter", the relay itself is probably still functional.

ANYONE ever examined the Kl.15 relay on the JB board? Any Photos or description of location & access?

I have resoldered bad solder joints on a circuit board before (Over-Voltage relay on Jag XJ6), and what happens is that the weight of the relay cracks the solder over time, and an intermittent electrical fault results. The crack can be easily seen with 3x magnification or less, and a bright light, and a solder-sucker & resolder quickly fixes the problem. In this case, removing the JB to access the board takes some time, but it is doable, and in fact is done in the recall procedure to replace the Blower Wiring Harness. See the attached RCRIT for that procedure, and TIS also provides procedure for removing JB.
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...minals/Obqgt5i

George

[jblood]

The clicking appears to be coming from the JBE.

When I disconnect the JBE by pulling it out, the clicking stops. Push it back in, and the clicking resumes. There are 4 connectors on the JBE. Two in front (1 Black, 1 Blue). Disconnecting these is rather easy as access is from the front. Disconnecting the connectors in front does NOT stop the clicking.

I removed the JBE and brought inside and warmed it in the toaster oven, (please dont tell my wife) . I also cleaned the connector contact with alcohol and a q-tip for good measure. All contacts appear good via visual inspection. Anyways, once warm to the touch, I reinstalled. No errors (although I did have to reset the angle sensor), and no clicking.

Then, I removed it and put in the refrigerator. After a couple hours and cold to the touch, I reinstalled JBE. The clicking commenced immediately. So the JBE does not like getting cold. BTW, The car remained in heated garage at 70 degrees during the process.

So now the question is: Do I try to open the JBE despite warnings that it is "not serviceable". Two security screws appear to be the only thing keeping me out. Of course I don't now what awaits inside or if I might do more damage. But I am tempted as the module is $375 + programming and I do not have a windows 10 laptop and cable that will allow remote programming.

[jblood]

Video

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by jblood

The clicking appears to be coming from the JBE. [Do you mean the sound is coming from the JBE, or do you mean that a COLD JBE causes clicking to come from the JB/Fuse Panel?]

When I disconnect the JBE by pulling it out, the clicking stops. Push it back in, and the clicking resumes. [when JBE is COLD] There are 4 connectors on the JBE. Two in front [that would the the "front" as you view if from vehicle REAR? ] (1 Black, 1 Blue). Disconnecting these is rather easy as access is from the front. Disconnecting the connectors in front does NOT stop the clicking.

I removed the JBE and brought inside and warmed it in the toaster oven... once warm to the touch, I reinstalled. No errors (although I did have to reset the angle sensor) [that was due to power supply interruption to SAS I presume?], and no clicking.

Then, I removed it and put in the refrigerator. After a couple hours and cold to the touch, I reinstalled JBE. The clicking commenced immediately. So the JBE does not like getting cold. BTW, The car remained in heated garage at 70 degrees during the process.

So now the question is: Do I try to open the JBE despite warnings that it is "not serviceable". Two security screws appear to be the only thing keeping me out. Of course I don't now what awaits inside or if I might do more damage. But I am tempted as the module is $375 + programming and I do not have a windows 10 laptop and cable that will allow remote programming.

I would open it & inspect as described below. However, I would first want to know what component is actually "clicking" before opening the JBE, so I have a better idea of what I am looking for. My best SWAG on info to date is a cracked solder joint at a pin where a component is attached to a circuit board in the JBE, but I have NEVER opened that Module, and that SWAG is ONLY based upon the description of the "clicking".

Ideally, if one could identify the component (relay, etc.) that is making the "clicking" sound, you could identify the JBE Connector & Pin in that connector by which that component is powered or activated, and trace the internal circuitry of the pin to board & PCB path, to more reliably identify/ confirm the solder joint or other fault.

It appears that there ARE relays in the JBE Module related to Rear Window & Central Locking functions. So if the clicking sound is coming from the JBE, and/or you can FEEL the vibration in the JBE CASE when the clicks occur, then it might be helpful to pull fuses for the rear windows (F78 & F80), and/or pull fuses for Central Locking Relays (F72 & F73), and see if clicking ceases when one of those fuses is pulled.

Here are the pertinent TIS circuits for Power Window Outputs, Central Locking Drives, and JBE Power Supply. Note that Power from each of those fuses passes through Connector X04010, which is the 23-pin connector on the Vehicle Forward side of JBE where it plugs into the JB/Fuse Panel. The specific pins in that connector for each fuse are identified in the "Power Supply JBE" schematic:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...lputs/HuwmQ8es
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...tlputs/i4nGkoU
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ronics/jeKow6i

I still don't understand WHAT the SOURCE of the "clicking" sound is. You indicated that you earlier removed the Kl.30g relay and the clicking continued, so that is NOT the clicking source. Can you listen to the JB, and to the JBE, at various points, using a stethoscope or hose section as described in earlier post & determine SOURCE of clicking?

I'm also NOT clear on what "Terminal" or "Relay" condition causes clicking when JBE is COLD. Does the clicking occur:
(1) ONLY when Remote key is present (if CA);
(2) ONLY when Remote is in "Insert Compartment" (Terminal R Active)
(3) ONLY when Ignition ON (Terminals 15 & 30g Active)
(4) At ANY time JBE is plugged into JB, Connector X04010, regardless of which terminals are active (regardless of Remote Key/Ignition position/use).

What I DO understand from your testing thus far:
A) No clicking occurs at ANY time if JBE is warm;
B) NO Clicking occurs when JBE is COLD if:
1) JBE is pulled rearward (relative to vehicle) to disengage pins of Connector X04010 23-pin connector to JB/Fuse Panel.

You state that the clicking does NOT cease (Cold JBE) when the two connectors X14271 (Black) & X14272 (Blue) on vehicle rear of JBE are disconnected. I'm NOT clear on whether disconnecting Connector X14270 on Vehicle Front of JBE has any effect on clicking.

As stated before, if function of an Electronic Circuit Board is intermittent or temperature-dependent, the cause is likely a bad solder joint where a component is soldered to the PCB, so the simplest solution is to open it up, use magnification & bright light & look for cracked joints, often a circular crack around a component pin. If it were me, I would open it and check, and if you don't find something obvious, see if there is an electronics repair shop (if anyone actually repairs anything these days ;-) you can have take a look at it. I'm talking simply visual examination of the solder joints on the board, and NOT electrical testing. There are specialty operations such as "Module Master" where you can ship them an Electronic Module and they claim to have more specific knowledge of the circuitry and means of testing. I have NO experience in that area.

Please let us know what you find,
George

[jblood]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

I would open it & inspect as described below. However, I would first want to know what component is actually "clicking" before opening the JBE, so I have a better idea of what I am looking for. My best SWAG on info to date is a cracked solder joint at a pin where a component is attached to a circuit board in the JBE, but I have NEVER opened that Module, and that SWAG is ONLY based upon the description of the "clicking".

Ideally, if one could identify the component (relay, etc.) that is making the "clicking" sound, you could identify the JBE Connector & Pin in that connector by which that component is powered or activated, and trace the internal circuitry of the pin to board & PCB path, to more reliably identify/ confirm the solder joint or other fault.

It appears that there ARE relays in the JBE Module related to Rear Window & Central Locking functions. So if the clicking sound is coming from the JBE, and/or you can FEEL the vibration in the JBE CASE when the clicks occur, then it might be helpful to pull fuses for the rear windows (F78 & F80), and/or pull fuses for Central Locking Relays (F72 & F73), and see if clicking ceases when one of those fuses is pulled.

Here are the pertinent TIS circuits for Power Window Outputs, Central Locking Drives, and JBE Power Supply. Note that Power from each of those fuses passes through Connector X04010, which is the 23-pin connector on the Vehicle Forward side of JBE where it plugs into the JB/Fuse Panel. The specific pins in that connector for each fuse are identified in the "Power Supply JBE" schematic:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...lputs/HuwmQ8es
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...tlputs/i4nGkoU
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ronics/jeKow6i

I still don't understand WHAT the SOURCE of the "clicking" sound is. You indicated that you earlier removed the Kl.30g relay and the clicking continued, so that is NOT the clicking source. Can you listen to the JB, and to the JBE, at various points, using a stethoscope or hose section as described in earlier post & determine SOURCE of clicking?

I'm also NOT clear on what "Terminal" or "Relay" condition causes clicking when JBE is COLD. Does the clicking occur:
(1) ONLY when Remote key is present (if CA);
(2) ONLY when Remote is in "Insert Compartment" (Terminal R Active)
(3) ONLY when Ignition ON (Terminals 15 & 30g Active)
(4) At ANY time JBE is plugged into JB, Connector X04010, regardless of which terminals are active (regardless of Remote Key/Ignition position/use).

What I DO understand from your testing thus far:
A) No clicking occurs at ANY time if JBE is warm;
B) NO Clicking occurs when JBE is COLD if:
1) JBE is pulled rearward (relative to vehicle) to disengage pins of Connector X04010 23-pin connector to JB/Fuse Panel.

You state that the clicking does NOT cease (Cold JBE) when the two connectors X14271 (Black) & X14272 (Blue) on vehicle rear of JBE are disconnected. I'm NOT clear on whether disconnecting Connector X14270 on Vehicle Front of JBE has any effect on clicking.

As stated before, if function of an Electronic Circuit Board is intermittent or temperature-dependent, the cause is likely a bad solder joint where a component is soldered to the PCB, so the simplest solution is to open it up, use magnification & bright light & look for cracked joints, often a circular crack around a component pin. If it were me, I would open it and check, and if you don't find something obvious, see if there is an electronics repair shop (if anyone actually repairs anything these days ;-) you can have take a look at it. I'm talking simply visual examination of the solder joints on the board, and NOT electrical testing. There are specialty operations such as "Module Master" where you can ship them an Electronic Module and they claim to have more specific knowledge of the circuitry and means of testing. I have NO experience in that area.

Please let us know what you find,
George

George - Thank you for the links to the connector pinouts! I will try to open the JBE carefully and I do have some resources at work to visually inspect and maybe even to some component replacement if the board is not conformally coated. However, if the circuit troubleshooting gets to be too intense, I may just replace the JBE and have the dealer code it. Do you know if it will be driveable without re-code (to get it to the dealer)?

A few points to clarify:

- I did use a hose to listen and try to isolate the sound but it is very difficult to say conclusively where the clicking is coming from. Best I can tell is that it IS from the JBE but cant say for sure. It is NOT from the IO1086 relay or the other one on the fuse box.

- The clicking happens as soon as the 23 pin connector is engaged. The key is NOT in the ignition or even in proximity of the vehicle for that matter. It ONLY happens when the JBE is cold. More clicking (higher frequency) the colder it is. The clicking slows in frequency and eventually stops as it warms up. The clicking happenings whether or not the two connectors (blue and black) on the front are engaged. Your number (4) is an accurate description.

-Jim

[jblood]

JBE opened - It is conformal coated on both sides of the printed circuit board. No obvious damage at first glance. I will put under a microscope tomorrow. may try plugging in with housing off to see if clicking coming from on board relay.

[arkie6]

I see two (2) OMRON Model G8NW-2L 12VDC relays on the board. One of those could be the source of your clicking/chattering.

Here is the datasheet:

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/3...0607-29792.pdf

You can buy new ones online for <$4 each.

[jblood]

Thanks Arkie6.

I'm going to plug in without housing and see if I can pinpoint which one is clicking.

Also Jeff - The job is not that bad. I did have one casualty though. I broke the trim piece that goes around the cup holders when removing it. If you take your time and are flexible and have some good lighting, it's not too bad. Also removing the backside, passenger side connector was tricky at first. There is no extra slack in the harness and the slider takes quite a bit of force to get out. I used a screwdriver to pry and then pliers to finish sliding the slider. Other than that, no real difficulty or surprises.

-Jim

[jblood]

Well this appears to be the culprit.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by jblood

Well this appears to be the culprit.

If I interpret your photos correctly, that NEC relay circled in your last photo is connected to Pins 21, 22 & 23 of X04010, the three pins closest to the Connector X14270 on the forward side of the JBE? If that is the case, that is related to Rear Window Motors, powered via F78-F80.

Have you accessed/viewed the opposite side of the PCB yet? I would inspect for circular solder cracks around the pins of that relay, as your intermittent/ cold-weather symptoms are more likely bad connection of relay to board than failure of the relay itself.

We're ALL trying to learn something from your efforts,
George

[jblood]

George,

Here is a pic of the backside. I agree with your sentiment although cant see any solder problems visually. I ordered the component ($13 - $4 part, $9shipping). It will take a week to get here. I will have it replaced at work.

In the meantime, I will try pulling the fuses you identified in the interests of verifying the bad relay.

Thanks again for all of your support!

[lowrydr310]

Could it be a faulty rear window switch that's making that relay click when cold? Either the one in the driver's door or the ones on each rear door. While you wait for your relay, it might be worth trying to disconnect all the window switches and see what happens, then plug in one by one.

It's hard to tell just from the pictures but those solder joints don't look any different than any other on the board.

[jblood]

lowrydr310,

Thanks for the suggestion. I will try that. along with the fuse removal.

I hope I have isolated it correctly - Seems peculiar that the window lock circuit would have such a cascading effect (i.e. AWD, DSC, Parking Brake, Door Locks etc...). But I'm not an electronics engineer so maybe there is a reasonable explanation.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by jblood

George, Here is a pic of the backside. I agree with your sentiment although cant see any solder problems visually...

I have NEVER opened up the JBE. Do I understand correctly that the relays are suspended from the PCB as installed? In other words, the last photo you show of the 5 large solder "blobs" is on the TOP of the PCB as mounted in the vehicle? If that is the case, then it would be expected that inertia of relay pulling down on board over bumps would cause solder cracking at pins.

As lowrydr310 suggests, it's difficult to see from the photo, but there appears to me to be an indication of circular crack or ring around the BOTTOM/ Largest pin of the 5 in the photo, and perhaps a "hint" of crack in top-right pin. NOT sure any of those pins have any electronic function from that side of the PCB.

Reason I suggested determining which Fuse or Function was related to the relay clicking is that there COULD be a fault in the Connector Pins related to that function, as they connect to the clicking Relay or PCB "intermittently." Careful examination of the pertinent pin(s) in X04010 may disclose an issue OTHER than the relay itself.

As the football coach observed: "I may NOT be BIG, but I sure am SLOW" However I find that ANALysis (NOT Paralysis) actually provides a better solution in tough cases. YOU have a tough case on your hands.

George

[JeffKim]

I’m on travel and unfortunately not much help other than cheering Jim on. I can only reconfirm my symptoms are identical specifically the clicking is more frequent the lower the temperature. I too am perplexed the the rear window relay would have such a dramatic effect.

[Pladi]

relays will continue to click when its under load like a short. It might not be the relay but whatever is loading it. That can eventually destroy a relay but you would also need to find the source of the short.

[jblood]

Pulling FUSE 79 stops the clicking.

Pulling FUSES 72,73, 78, and 80 do NOT stop clicking.

I am eagerly awaiting my replacement relay to arrive via UPS on 11/15.

please stay tuned...

[jblood]

Update:

I swapped out the originally suspected bad component and it did NOT fix the problem. We bench tested the relay itself (independent of the PCB) and it operated properly when cold.

So, I went back to the drawing board and used another method to narrow down the part of the circuit that is failing. I bought a can of "cold spray" so I could freeze localized areas of the circuit. I worked my way through the board using the cold spray to freeze and a hair dryer to rewarm. After freezing sections of the board, I would plug the JBE in and listen for clicking. Once I got it to click, I would warm with the hair dryer and the clicking would stop. I was able to isolate the problem (I believe) to a different relay.

The sound method was difficult as the clicking conducts throughout the board making it very tricky to isolate.

See pics for the new prime suspect. It is NEC EP2F-B3G1ST. I now have this part on order and expect in on 11/20. We will replace this component and I hope this will be the end of the journey.