[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Conissah

All 3 of my vehicles are manual... Only thing's Ill own that AREN'T manual will be SUV's, and that's because they don't make them. My #1 criteria when searching for a car is the man pedal. Funny enough, my 5'1" fiance wants a 981, wouldn't it be a shame if hers has the man pedal and yours doesn't...

In all seriousness though, autos are faster around a track, and from 0-60, sure, but you can't beat the fun of an actual manual car. It's an entirely different experience from a simulated manual, and the PDK, as good as it is, would NOT be my tranny of choice in a 981, 718, 991.2, etc. #savethemanuals

Lastly, and most importantly, natural theft deterrent. /rant

You just need a Wrangler (with the worst engine choice of course.)

[Conissah]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

You just need a Wrangler (with the worst engine choice of course.)

I have driven by brothers manual Wrangler enough to know that it is one of the worst things on this Earth. By SUV I meant something that can tow and fit 5+ people easily, while also having the BASIC of interior niceties. Wranglers are incredibly bare bones.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Conissah

I have driven by brothers manual Wrangler enough to know that it is one of the worst things on this Earth. By SUV I meant something that can tow and fit 5+ people easily, while also having the BASIC of interior niceties. Wranglers are incredibly bare bones.

It's an appliance. Not everything needs leather, a sunroof and to not try to at least occasionally knock your teeth out.

But what you described actually sounds more like an E63 Touring. Just get it in bandaid color and put a green taxi sign on it.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Not when it costs more to develop -- or, as is almost always the case now, source from a third-party manufacturer -- and certify a manual transmission vehicle than it is to offer it as an option in the first place. THAT is the biggest reason they're disappearing: simple cost effectiveness, combined with supply and demand. Demand has fallen to below four percent worldwide. Again: WORLDWIDE. That's a function of several factors conspiring to kill them.

@5.M0NSTER flybigjet I'd only owned manuals until three cars ago. I'm nearly 50. I get the allure, and the advantages. However, I've joined the 21st Century ... and, to bring this back to the OP's topic, it means I can consider far more cars as my next one because I've learned to appreciate them, and use them to engage with my car. My advice is to stop resisting and start learning the new way.

I'm 39 and since 2013 my fun cars have had the clutch pedal. I've lived in Germany for the last year and a half and this year I WILL get sub 8min lap in my 6 Speed Manual M2 on Nurbergring Nordschleife. It's hard to learn to heal-and-toe. It's hard to learn to rev-match. But it IS a skill. And skills make it worth while.

At some point I will let Electric Uber take me places. But today is not the day. There is a Fun to a Manual which can not be understated. Executing a heal-and-toe well is super rewarding. Pulling a level does nothing to raise your pulse.

[Conissah]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

It's an appliance. Not everything needs leather, a sunroof and to not try to at least occasionally knock your teeth out.

But what you described actually sounds more like an E63 Touring. Just get it in bandaid color and put a green taxi sign on it.

That's why the daily is a $2000 30 year old Miata. Fun as it is, it's main purpose is cheap transportation. $3.60 a month for insurance, 28 mpg, and valued at less than most peoples wheel setups on this forum. Ultimate appliance, even if it does sit at 4000 rpm on the highway and rattle my teeth out.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Conissah

Funny enough, my 5'1" fiance wants a 981, wouldn't it be a shame if hers has the man pedal and yours doesn't...

Dude ... You're responding to someone who drove a 5-speed MINI Cooper -- not an 'S', but a standard one, on purpose -- and got laid because of it. At the same time, I rode an Aprilia literbike on the street and a Suzuki SV on the track -- and got laid because of those, too.

That 'man pedal' ain't what makes me one. Sorry to hear it's what makes you one.

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

@5.M0NSTER flybigjet I'd only owned manuals until three cars ago. I'm nearly 50. I get the allure, and the advantages. However, I've joined the 21st Century ... and, to bring this back to the OP's topic, it means I can consider far more cars as my next one because I've learned to appreciate them, and use them to engage with my car. My advice is to stop resisting and start learning the new way.

As someone who learned on, and has been driving MT's for almost 40 years, I do see your point. Tech has gotten good enough that the AT is a "no-brainer" option in comparison to a MT: No skill required-- put it in "D" and you're off to the market with no muss, no fuss. And when you factor in economies of scale and having to keep different parts in the supply chain that only 4% (if that) of your cars need-- it's a clean kill.

BUT (and here's where I disagree with you)-- as long as a MT is available *in a vehicle I like*, with the *motor I like*, I'll lean in that direction. It's not "resisting"-- it's enjoying a skillset that I've spent my entire adult life learning.

My wife has an Acura RDX-- it's a fine SUV. All sorts of bells and whistles. It's faultless and bombproof. It's also about as exciting as a can of paint to drive. By comparison, my 2005 Honda Element (one of the VERY few MT's in that model) is a total hoot with its third pedal (at least as much as a small SUV can be).

I look at it in comparison to the Airbus and Boeing philosophies of designing aircraft. Airbus does everything in its power to take the pilot out of the equation while Boeing still leaves the pilot in control (you can kill ALL of the magic in a Boeing-- not so in an Airbus).

Is the Airbus 320 (i.e. a flying Tesla) a better passenger hauler than the Boeing 737 (i.e. a MT w/ power windows)? From a passenger and ease of flying standpoint-- probably. But, at the end of the day, the Boeing still requires you to have "stick and rudder" skills, do a lot of stuff manually, and it's much more fun to fly when you kick the autopilot and auto throttle off.

My buddy's an Airbus captain and he drives nothing but automatics (he LOVES his Tesla).

I'm a 737 Captain who drives nothing but manual's.

There's probably a reason that we each fly what we fly.

R.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

You're not going to save them. There simply being phased out by economics, by culture, by governments, by pretty much everyone except old-school performance enthusiasts. And how much influence do you have in the grand scheme of the current auto industry? Zero, nada, zilch, none.

Counterpoint: I have $60K say in what the industry does. The cost of one manual equipped BMW M2 Competition.

And while I don't disagree with your bigger point (modern automatics are more efficient and easier to use) I disagree with the idea that they are a superior transmission for sports cars.

Everyone thinks the point of fast cars is to go fast. That's not the point of them at all. Sports cars are only fast because going fast is fun. A manual may be slower, but if a driver enjoys it more and the primary mission of that vehicle is to be entertaining, it's the superior piece of kit.

That said, there are people who actually enjoy a nice paddle shifted setup over a manual. Nothing wrong with that either. Different strokes for different folks.

[Conissah]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Dude ... You're responding to someone who drove a 5-speed MINI Cooper -- not an 'S', but a standard one, on purpose -- and got laid because of it. At the same time, I rode an Aprilia literbike on the street and a Suzuki SV on the track -- and got laid because of those, too.

That 'man pedal' ain't what makes me one. Sorry to hear it's what makes you one.

Dude... It's a joke. I drive an M2, a convertible hair dressers car, and a Ducati.

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by flybigjet

I've never owned an AT in my life.

My wife just got her first last year (to replace her MT Speed3)-- an Acura RDX.

Currently, we have three MT's in addition to her RDX-- a Honda Element (mine), M2C (mine) and a Miata RF (hers).

R.

My first vehicle was an automatic, and everything after that has been a manual. How do you and your wife like the RF? I would really like to add one to my stable at some point.

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by JasonCSU

My first vehicle was an automatic, and everything after that has been a manual. How do you and your wife like the RF? I would really like to add one to my stable at some point.

My wife (who's 'fun sized') LOVES it. She drives it every day that she can-- 35 degrees in Denver, and she's on her way to work with the top down, windows up and heater blasting. She gets a *ton* of compliments on it as well- the RF really doesn't look much like a Miata, so people are surprised when she tells them what it is.

Me? I can't fit in the damn thing. I'm 6' with a very tall (37.5") torso, and it's Unfun for me to wiggle myself into it, and then I damn near need a can opener to get out. I do NOT fit in it at all with the top up-- with the top down, I feel like a golden retriever with his head out the window.

That being said, I've driven it a few times (to the PPF place) and it's a full-on hoot to drive. And the MT shifter might just be the best on the planet.

My wife got the GT-S package-- if you get an RF, I'd *really* recommend it. upgraded Bilstein struts (and my wife has *zero* interest in modding her car), a blacked out roof panel, and most importantly? A LSD. *That* was why I talked her into the package.

R.

[Red Bread]

As a 6'2" person who had an NB, rip out the sun visors, see if the seat rails have a stop preventing the seat from going all the way back and consider removing some of the seat foam. I did all of those and went from uncomfortably tight to pretty livable.

I actually found the ND pretty roomy when I drove one, but didn't try the RF, maybe they're a little tighter? I did find that the Recaros are a good bit lower than the standard seats though.

[Red Bread]

How have I not noticed the rear view camera sphincter before?!

[detroitm2]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Not when it costs more to develop -- or, as is almost always the case now, source from a third-party manufacturer -- and certify a manual transmission vehicle than it is to offer it as an option in the first place. THAT is the biggest reason they're disappearing: simple cost effectiveness, combined with supply and demand. Demand has fallen to below four percent worldwide. Again: WORLDWIDE. That's a function of several factors conspiring to kill them.

The demand in this case is directly proportional to the amount of models they are producing with this option. 2% of NEW car sales are manual, but thats because manufacturers are forcing the issue by not offering them any longer.

This is more than just supply and demand, this is auto maker greed.

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

As a 6'2" person who had an NB, rip out the sun visors, see if the seat rails have a stop preventing the seat from going all the way back and consider removing some of the seat foam. I did all of those and went from uncomfortably tight to pretty livable.

I actually found the ND pretty roomy when I drove one, but didn't try the RF, maybe they're a little tighter? I did find that the Recaros are a good bit lower than the standard seats though.

It's *sitting* height, not overall height that's the issue for me.

And tearing my wife's 'toy' apart? Baaaaaaad plan.

It's actually the hardtop roof that I hit-- everything else is just cramped. I think maybe that the RF seats don't recline quite so far back as they had to make room for the motors, etc as well as the hardware/storage for the hardtop.

Can't prove it-- but it sure feels that way.

R.

[freakystyly]

Greed is right, they're turning their backs on the die hards in favour of volume sales.

There's still brands that respect manual drivers, VW, Mazda, Hyundai, Subaru for a couple examples.

Miata's are a majority manual, GTIs/Rs are 50/50ish, Hyundai's N sub-brand currently is 100% manual and their new G70 they intentionally made a low volume of manuals to test the waters. STIs are still all manuals. High or top trim level examples but still available in lower trims.

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

How have I not noticed the rear view camera sphincter before?!

That's a 2019-onward addition due to government handholding regulations. Nobody's thrilled with it as it was dinged on pretty much every review, but honestly? After a while you don't even notice it.

R.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by flybigjet

That's a 2019-onward addition due to government handholding regulations. Nobody's thrilled with it as it was dinged on pretty much every review, but honestly? After a while you don't even notice it.

R.

Where was the camera before? Or did the Miata just not have one? I realize you can touch the rear bumper from the seat.

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Where was the camera before? Or did the Miata just not have one? I realize you can touch the rear bumper from the seat.

Backup camera's became mandatory on US auto sales on May 1, 2018-- prior to that date, MX-5's didn't have a camera.

https://carbuzz.com/news/your-next-n...-backup-camera

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by detroitm2

The demand in this case is directly proportional to the amount of models they are producing with this option. 2% of NEW car sales are manual, but thats because manufacturers are forcing the issue by not offering them any longer.

This is more than just supply and demand, this is auto maker greed.

Umm ... That's precisely the point I make in the first part of the post that you quoted.

Thing is, it's not 'automaker greed'. It's economics. You do realize that every single model with a manual transmission must be certified independently for safety, emissions, etc. in every market it's sold in? Also: You do realize that developing a transmission -- even a relatively turnkey third-party solution from someone such as Getrag -- still takes millions to execute per model?

Greed doesn't make, say, BMW pull manuals from the 3 Series, or not offer a manual across the Z4 range (much less the Zupra at all). It's simply too much of a financial gamble -- and one that most automakers have documented losses in as precedent. In the case of the 3 Series, it's a lack of consumer interest because of what the 3 Series is now, and the customer base it has now (and, thus, we have the M2 Comp). In the case of the Z cars, it's simply not produced in sufficient volumes to justify the R&D and cost up front. (Yeah, the base 20i has one available now in the EU. But that's the EU ... and, likely, an experiment by BMW.) Seriously: If either sold like hotcakes, you'd likely see a manual version at some point here. But I would guess, based on how things are going now, that we won't. Ever.

And I'm not even going to get into why cars such as the C8 or the Alfa 4C aren't/didn't get manuals. Figure that out on your own. It really is pretty simple. (Hint: better!)

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

Greed is right, they're turning their backs on the die hards in favour of volume sales.

There's still brands that respect manual drivers, VW, Mazda, Hyundai, Subaru for a couple examples.

Miata's are a majority manual, GTIs/Rs are 50/50ish, Hyundai's N sub-brand currently is 100% manual and their new G70 they intentionally made a low volume of manuals to test the waters. STIs are still all manuals. High or top trim level examples but still available in lower trims.

What's wrong with volume sales? It's what keeps you still able to buy all of those manual models you list above -- which are all extremely niche vehicles save for the Golf-derived GTi/R. (It's also what kept me able to buy my current 718 Cayman -- in a manual if I so chose, but I chose not.)

Here's a counterpoint:
I detest four-door cars. I have no use for one. When VW killed the three-door GTi (and never offered that in the R), I was not happy. I dealt with it and moved on. Similarly, I hate sedans. When Subaru killed the five-door WRX/STi, I was no happy. I dealt with it and moved on. (Disclosure: I've owned both. Both were manuals, too!)

Manuals will eventually be killed from those cars, too. You and others won't be happy. Deal with it and move on ... or better yet, maybe learn to play with paddles now before you're actually forced to. That's the approach I decided to take, rather than limit my choices to what is on the list this thread was created to discuss.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

What's wrong with volume sales? It's what keeps you still able to buy all of those manual models you list above -- which are all extremely niche vehicles save for the Golf-derived GTi/R. (It's also what kept me able to buy my current 718 Cayman -- in a manual if I so chose, but I chose not.)

Here's a counterpoint:
I detest four-door cars. I have no use for one. When VW killed the three-door GTi (and never offered that in the R), I was not happy. I dealt with it and moved on. Similarly, I hate sedans. When Subaru killed the five-door WRX/STi, I was no happy. I dealt with it and moved on. (Disclosure: I've owned both. Both were manuals, too!)

Manuals will eventually be killed from those cars, too. You and others won't be happy. Deal with it and move on ... or better yet, maybe learn to play with paddles now before you're actually forced to. That's the approach I decided to take, rather than limit my choices to what is on the list this thread was created to discuss.

Paddles are toast too. Single speeds will take over and replace your precious paddles.