[Mark II]

Originally Posted by crackerjack

have the report provisonal in word format if anyone interested...
however as am currently undergoing litigation may be advisable not to put it on the fora just yet....any thoughts on this?

please note this is the provisonal report and should have the final independent report from mira next week but as mentioned above they may change their conclusions now they appear to have had contact with bmw...

Not sure whether the former would prejudice your case but may be worth waiting anyway to see which side MIRA come down on next week in the final report.

Good luck - keep us posted.

[vivekk]

Originally Posted by crackerjack

have the report provisonal in word format if anyone interested...
however as am currently undergoing litigation may be advisable not to put it on the fora just yet....any thoughts on this?





please note this is the provisonal report and should have the final independent report from mira next week but as mentioned above they may change their conclusions now they appear to have had contact with bmw...

Don't post the report or send it to any 3rd-party until AFTER the litigation process finishes, for your own sake, cj, ok.

If you want it posting afterwards, then just PM me & I'll sort it for you- no problem.

Viv

[big pimp]

Originally Posted by Mark II

Interested in this myself as I have the 19" 225M style (build Nov 07) and as I don't use the car a lot it could be ages before the problem rears its head - maybe even beyond the warranty.

there is no warranty they will replace it under. BMWs point of view - both through their dealers, and BMW GB is "driver damage"

I totally agree about sticking together - concerted action by a group is often (sadly) the only way to get major manufacturers to 'carry the can' these days.

so lets do it - i have my wheels and tyres still - i'm sure it wouldn't be hard for us to band together -even if it only is 4 or 5 of us.... it's still 4 or 5 going to the motoring press with the exact same problem, that BMW are disregarding in the exact same way.

it is us who are being raped over this, and as someone else mentioned, as individuals we can do nothing - we keep getting hit by these brick walls, but as a group we should get these things noticed and sorted sooner.

If the Americans were having these problems, there'd be absolute hell to pay!!! and i guarantee BMW would get things sorted, if only to hush them up!

It's amazing how the same manufacturers that will initially maintain an arrogant, devil may care attitude to one individual, suddenly become pliable and amenable to resolving issues in the face of public outcry.

In this case (to bastardise the American saying) - "Maybe the wheel really is broke, so you better fix it!!"

so lets go guys - illegitimi non carborundum - dont let the bastards grind you down!!!

[tmarshall57]

One or two of the US guys are having this problem. I responded to them about 2 - 3 months ago by linking them to the original thread by Crackerjack. Haven't seen anything recently however.

[Mark II]

The BMW warranty has always been one of the best in the industry and whenever I've had a fault occur on a BMW car or motorbike during the warranty period (and occasionally just beyond it) the issue has always been resolved satisfactorily. I've had far more problems with other manufacturers dodging their responsibilities but that's a different story..

The problem (not just with BMW) is sometimes down to dealers, some of whom are very good at handling warranty related issues where others seem more interested in selling new/used cars than dealing with long term customers: Sadly, customer service is way down on their list of priorities (thank goodness they're not all the same).

I do wonder whether the lack of support from the dealers on this issue is also a case of what they will (or won't) make out of replacing a set of wheels under warranty - in other words, even if BMW agreed to replace the wheels, there's very little labour time to book

From what I can see, the BMW warranty makes no mention of excluding wheels and I don't see that there's any way these failures could be attributed to 'Fair Wear & Tear', so if Crackerjack's independent report says it's manufacturing fault then BMW should replace the wheels under warranty - after all, they will simply return them to the manufacturer, who will then have to pick up the tab.

IMO, we need to establish a few facts before we move any further and it may be worth setting up a poll so that we can discover the full extent of the problem and be in a position to use the evidence:

Possible questions for those who have identified fractures in their alloys that are NOT related to curb damage or impacts.

1) What is the build date of your vehicle?
2) Which style of wheel do you have - 225M, 230 etc?
3) Does your vehicle have M-sport suspension?
4) was your vehicle supplied with Bridgestone or Michelin RFT's (please correct if there are alternate OEM options).
5) What mileage was the fault discovered at?
6) Have you received replacement wheels FOC (under warranty or as a gesture of goodwill)?

I believe the Italian company Cromodora manufactures the 225M wheel but I don't know if they make the other styles that have also been reported with problems. If they do then there is more evidence that the fractures have nothing to do with usage/impact but are possibly related to failures caused by either material or casting defects.

As a qualified vehicle engineer, I have to say that some of the pictures of fractured wheels are very disturbing and I would expect that any manufacturer would want to resolve this issue long before there was a chance that a member of the public might be killed or injured as a result.

Another thought: Given that BMW engineered the M-sport suspended cars with negative camber, for better cornering....and all of the stress cracks I have seen so far in these threads are internal (inside edge), is there a possibility that the wheel manufacturer may not have taken this additional loading into consideration when designing the wheel and that when combined with our poorly maintained and pot-holed roads and the use of run-flat tyres, the material failures are partially related to the car riding its weight on the inside edges of the rims when driving in a straight line?? i.e You hit a pot-hole and the forces are directed into the inside edge of the rim?? I guess it's possible that FEA might not have identified the problem as in essence, the potential for stress fractures resulting from material defects in the casting would only become apparent in situ.

Just a thought and just my opinion.

[Hotcoupe]

Originally Posted by Mark II

The BMW warranty has always been one of the best in the industry and whenever I've had a fault occur on a BMW car or motorbike during the warranty period (and occasionally just beyond it) the issue has always been resolved satisfactorily. I've had far more problems with other manufacturers dodging their responsibilities but that's a different story..

The problem (not just with BMW) is sometimes down to dealers, some of whom are very good at handling warranty related issues where others seem more interested in selling new/used cars than dealing with long term customers: Sadly, customer service is way down on their list of priorities (thank goodness they're not all the same).

I do wonder whether the lack of support from the dealers on this issue is also a case of what they will (or won't) make out of replacing a set of wheels under warranty - in other words, even if BMW agreed to replace the wheels, there's very little labour time to book

From what I can see, the BMW warranty makes no mention of excluding wheels and I don't see that there's any way these failures could be attributed to 'Fair Wear & Tear', so if Crackerjack's independent report says it's manufacturing fault then BMW should replace the wheels under warranty - after all, they will simply return them to the manufacturer, who will then have to pick up the tab.

IMO, we need to establish a few facts before we move any further and it may be worth setting up a poll so that we can discover the full extent of the problem and be in a position to use the evidence:

Possible questions for those who have identified fractures in their alloys that are NOT related to curb damage or impacts.

1) What is the build date of your vehicle?
2) Which style of wheel do you have - 225M, 230 etc?
3) Does your vehicle have M-sport suspension?
4) was your vehicle supplied with Bridgestone or Michelin RFT's (please correct if there are alternate OEM options).
5) What mileage was the fault discovered at?
6) Have you received replacement wheels FOC (under warranty or as a gesture of goodwill)?

I believe the Italian company Cromodora manufactures the 225M wheel but I don't know if they make the other styles that have also been reported with problems. If they do then there is more evidence that the fractures have nothing to do with usage/impact but are possibly related to failures caused by either material or casting defects.

As a qualified vehicle engineer, I have to say that some of the pictures of fractured wheels are very disturbing and I would expect that any manufacturer would want to resolve this issue long before there was a chance that a member of the public might be killed or injured as a result.

Another thought: Given that BMW engineered the M-sport suspended cars with negative camber, for better cornering....and all of the stress cracks I have seen so far in these threads are internal (inside edge), is there a possibility that the wheel manufacturer may not have taken this additional loading into consideration when designing the wheel and that when combined with our poorly maintained and pot-holed roads and the use of run-flat tyres, the material failures are partially related to the car riding its weight on the inside edges of the rims when driving in a straight line?? i.e You hit a pot-hole and the forces are directed into the inside edge of the rim?? I guess it's possible that FEA might not have identified the problem as in essence, the potential for stress fractures resulting from material defects in the casting would only become apparent in situ.

Just a thought and just my opinion.

Good stuff Mark, and your last paragraph is very interesting.

I fail to see how BMW can blame driver damage or wear and tear as a reason to absolve themselves of any responsibility.
From the pictures I've seen of cracked wheels and my own experience (E46 MV2's) there is no sign whatsoever of damage to either faces of the rim which could lead to BMW's claim of either driver damage or wear and tear.

If a wheel is cracking as a result of impact damage, than surely this deems the wheel to be not fit for purpose,seems fairly crystal to me.

The fact that CJ's experience of MIRA now wanting to change what was allegedly a preliminary report and issue a revised version,speaks volumes,and is indicative of what is likely to follow - a climbdown by MIRA and a total whitewash on any responsibility on BMW.

What a crock of S-H-I-T.

By the way I had 2 x MV2's replaced under warranty as a result of stress (allegedly) cracking to the inner edge so it is far from a new problem.

[phazon]

I have now been told where to go by the Dealer Principal twice and customer services once. The dealer has offered me a 'goodwill' 25% discount on the wheels, which I am taking up and will be replacing the tyres with non-RFTs.

Customer services have written to me saying it is impact damage and therefore my fault, and included two photocopied articles about the state of UK roads. They deny wheels are not fit for purpose. Yeah right.

I've had other issues this week which have taken up my time, but this is now back on the agenda. I will be sorting the wheels/tyres this weekend and then pursue BMW next week for the costs under the sale of goods act.

Interesting fact - I found out the part number of the wheels has changed, which means something in the wheel manufaturer has changed - could just be finish or something equally irrelevent, or could be structural...

[Mark II]

Originally Posted by phazon

The dealer has offered me a 'goodwill' 25% discount on the wheels..

Suppose this is the best they can do without BMW's help but it's still an insult given the circumstances and growing evidence of a manufacturing fault. I do understand why you are going with the non RFT's though - seriously thinking of doing that myself.

Originally Posted by phazon

Customer services have written to me saying it is impact damage and therefore my fault, and included two photocopied articles about the state of UK roads. They deny wheels are not fit for purpose. Yeah right.

On the contrary. Is that not tantamount to an admission that the wheels are not fit for purpose? I mean, if as a manufacturer you are going to supply wheels that are going to be driven on roads in the UK then shouldn't you test them to ensure they can cope with the odd pothole or two??

Thinking of getting my next set CNC'd from Blackpool Rock - it'll be about as durable

Originally Posted by phazon

Interesting fact - I found out the part number of the wheels has changed, which means something in the wheel manufaturer has changed - could just be finish or something equally irrelevent, or could be structural...

It would be very interesting to know if the wheel is still being manufactured by Cromodora!!

[phazon]

Originally Posted by Mark II

On the contrary. Is that not tantamount to an admission that the wheels are not fit for purpose? I mean, if as a manufacturer you are going to supply wheels that are going to be driven on roads in the UK then shouldn't you test them to ensure they can cope with the odd pothole or two??

Absolutely agree, that's what I will be pointing out next. It's farcical really - if the roads are in that bad a state should I expect my suspension to go next?

Originally Posted by Mark II

It would be very interesting to know if the wheel is still being manufactured by Cromodora!!

I will be able to answer that later. The new wheels arrived this morning, delivered to the Parts guy (who was fantastic in terms of service, I think he was a bit surprised by the situation and pulled out all the stops). The old wheels are still on the car so I'll be able to make a detailed comparison when I take them in to have the non-RFTs fitted tomorrow.

My wife went to the CAB this morning to discuss it. Not got all the details, but bottom line is we need to get a few of us to present our case together to BMW I think. Can you PM me if you are happy to do this?

Thanks

[Ant Man]

Is it VOSPA or something like that, who monitor recalls? Whatever they are called, they have a website when the public can record faults. When enough faults are logged, the manufacturer is requested to issue an official recall.

[CrimsonRedE93]

Its VOSA there are only 2 listed 3 series recalls

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/apps/rec...freeText=Blank

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/apps/rec...freeText=Blank

[phazon]

So the wheels that were delivered today are manufactured by BBS. Were the original 230's definitely made by Cromodora?

When I get the other wheel off tomorrow I will compare the two in detail.

[big pimp]

phazon - i'm happy to go on record with you on this one....

i got the same story about state of UK roads....

[phazon]

Originally Posted by big pimp

phazon - i'm happy to go on record with you on this one....

i got the same story about state of UK roads....

Nice one, I'll PM you.

Put the new wheels on the car today, together with 4 Conti Sport Contact 3's. The wheels look to be pretty much the same design, but I will compare in more detail later on. Each wheel only had one crack, but both were quite wide, certainly not hairline.

[Carrera RSR]

If BMW are blaming the state of UK roads then who do you blame and gain recompense.

BMW for not making alloys fit for the UK

Highways Agency for not fixing the roads

Government , local and national for not spending on the roads.

Eitherway how can we as drivers take the hit on this? End of the day we have car tax on the new car, Road fund licence, Fuel duty/VAT, toll roads, congestion charging, parking fees etc. etc. How much more money do we need to spend to keep our cars on the road?

Sounds like a plan to go to the media on this one. Good luck.

[crackerjack]

count me in


having somewhat started this am still keen to pursue but waiting the final report from mira was promised last week but looking at this week....and will make available as soon as

my wheels were cromadora not bbs

interestingly a new series of watchdog been launched ...................

[pjs]

Evening all, new member here

Scothall claim I've 2 Cracked alloys this morning, glad I've been guided to this thread from dare I say it a merc forum. 330d 06 plate, 63k miles, ex sytner demo, motorway miles...

Any words of wisdom/advice before I tackle BMW at customer Services on Monday. Dealer claiming I've had too little pressure in and the roads around Leeds are full of potholes.

thanks

[roofer]

All wheels should be fit for the purpose they are sold for.....the odd pothole included.

[F31-340i]

pjs - what wheels were on your 330d 06? Standard 18" MV3s or the 19" 225s?

[pjs]

ajd

Standard 18" with 245/35 Bridgstone RFT's (225 at front)


Cheers

[xenon]

Originally Posted by roofer

All wheels should be fit for the purpose they are sold for.....the odd pothole included.

Agreed, but if you have been driving around with under-inflated tyres (difficult to tell visually with RFT) then the wheels will take more hammer. I'm not saying anyone here has, but that's a good get-out for BMW. Since I've had RFTs (and until I get rid) I check the pressures weekly - especially since the ABS Sensor-dereived TPWS is shit.

[Cafe.Racer]

My argument to that would be that as the car is fitted with a tyre pressure sensor/warning system, the system should warn you when the pressure is low enough to cause serious and life threatening damage to the wheels.

It's all a load of rubbish, a half qualified mettalurgist can see what the issue with the wheels is. Not having a go at dealer tech's, but they are not qualified or experienced enough to adequately diagnose, they are simply jumping to conclusions - "I don't know what it is, so it must be pothole damage".

BMW ought to step up and sort this one out, before someone has a serious accident. BUT they will have done a risk vs cost analysis...