[hoki06]

Yes, Top Tier is a real thing and it does make a difference. Yes, branded vs unbranded makes a difference. I work in the fuels additive industry and will try to briefly explain.

First you need to understand how to gasoline supply system works in the US. All the gasoline comes from refineries via a network of large pipelines such as the Colonial that you might have seen in the news last fall when it was attacked by ransomware. Those pipelines feed regional terminal stations that pull gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, and heating oil off the pipeline as needed to fill large above ground storage tanks at their terminal. These fuels are then delivered by truck within the region. In short, all the gas in your specific region in the same fuel from the same pipeline.

Link for those wanting to learn more about the pipelines: https://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-...-the-pipelines

Here's where you get differences in the fuel. At each terminal there are a variety of fuel additive storage tanks as well. When a truck gets filled to make a delivery to a service station, the fuel is transferred from a large storage tank and into the truck. During this process, additive is injected into the gasoline at the proper treat rate for whatever is being ordered. The additive is what makes the difference in your fuel!

Unbranded gas stations (Sheetz, Wawa, 7-11, etc.) use whatever the cheapest additive is they can get treated into the gas at the lowest allowed concentration (LAC) allowed by the EPA to pass certain performance tests for deposit control.

Branded stations (Shell, Exxon, BP, Costco, etc.) typically have their own additive only used for those branded stations and they are treated at much higher rates, sometimes 5-7x for premium treats like V-Power and Synergy. These branded gasolines are usually also Top Tier certified which is a more strict set of deposit control performance tests that have to be passed to use the TT branding.

Diesel is similar but difference. Additization of diesel is rare in the US and the only one you can buy with additive consistently is Exxon. All others do not add detergent or other additives.

I know that marketing material can make it seem like branded gasoline is snake oil but I promise you it is not. I personally have spent millions of dollars worth of engine and vehicle testing in the past 18 months to develop a new additive for one of the top companies. There is a significant amount of data and statistical rigor that the data goes through to be able to support any claims made in court if, and when, it gets challenged by a competitor.

[vreihen16]

Back when I was in college, I had a job at a Mobil corporate-owned/operated station. Mobil owned the regional fuel terminal, the fuel came from Mobil's refinery on Mobil's barge, and was delivered on Mobil's trucks. There was serious QA/QC at all phases, and the truck drivers even had to check each station's tanks for water/sediment before making a delivery and log the results.

Across the street, there was a no-name station that bought their fuel from whatever regional terminal was cheapest that day. (Can you say lowest bidder?)
It was delivered in non-dedicated independent tanker trucks, that were in some cases also used to haul asphalt and other yuckies and picked up occasional loads of gasoline to rinse them out. One of Mobil's drivers used to work for that trucking company, and told me why he left. It is also worth noting that we used to sell a lot of dry gas to pedestrians when the temperatures plummeted and their cars broke down a block away after filling up across the street.

When Mobil had to buy truckloads of gas from a competitor's terminal due to tank farm maintenance and stuff at their own terminal, the drivers were given concentrated containers of Mobil's fuel/detergent chemical package to add as the truck was filled at the competitor's terminals. They took their fuel quality seriously. One of the Mobil drivers told me that he watched Sunoco drivers dumping their chemical package into their branded trucks when they occasionally had to fill up at Mobil's terminal, so they also appeared to have similar standards.

These days, there's one regional barge terminal that everyone buys from thanks to supply chain divestiture. I haven't seen a Mobil-branded truck on the roads in a while. I would imagine that the chemical package still gets added at the terminal by the driver when the truck is filled, but who knows about the QA/QC in checking each station's tanks for water/sediment before dropping a delivery...especially at shady independent stations.

TL;DR - Ask me why I own an electric car now, and why it's only filled with premium Canadian electrons from water falling over a cliff?

Mandatory disclaimer - I am still a shareholder in ExxonMobil, when my corporate Mobil employee stock benefits rolled into the merged company.....

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by hoki06

Branded stations (Shell, Exxon, BP, Costco, etc.) typically have their own additive only used for those branded stations and they are treated at much higher rates, sometimes 5-7x for premium treats like V-Power and Synergy. These branded gasolines are usually also Top Tier certified which is a more strict set of deposit control performance tests that have to be passed to use the TT branding.

Thanks for that.

I think for most of us here who are running upgraded parts and a tune it's all about consistency. I use Phillips 66 93 octane and a 91 map, so I feel like I'm pretty safe. I do wonder if the gas I'm getting is the same as Shell, Exxon, etc. Is there a list somewhere that shows the differences? I could be buying crap gas and have no idea.

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

I do wonder if the gas I'm getting is the same as Shell, Exxon, etc. Is there a list somewhere that shows the differences? I could be buying crap gas and have no idea.

Follow the delivery/supply chain to the top. It varies by region. Not many brands on the east coast are still running their own refineries, notably Bayway (Exxon) and Hess no longer being owned by their respective brands. Inland, I understand that regional fuel terminals are built around a pipeline faucet and shared by everyone.

When in doubt, look at the station to see if they have ~15 foot long tank stick rulers near the fillers or vents. If you don't see a ruler, run! If you do see a ruler, feel free to examine the bottom foot of it to see if there's water paste on it and what it detected the last time it was used. Unless the paste formulation has changed since the 1980's, green paste/residue is good, pink/red is bad.....

[hoki06]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

Thanks for that.

I think for most of us here who are running upgraded parts and a tune it's all about consistency. I use Phillips 66 93 octane and a 91 map, so I feel like I'm pretty safe. I do wonder if the gas I'm getting is the same as Shell, Exxon, etc. Is there a list somewhere that shows the differences? I could be buying crap gas and have no idea.

I don't know of a list or chart that would show differences between brands. It's safe to assume the octane rating across brands should be essentially the same as its all the same base fuel within a given terminal region and very consistent. Premium 93 at Wawa is basically the same premium 93 base fuel at Shell but with different additives added in.

Edit: Phillips 66 additive is decent stuff and Top Tier registered, you're fine there. I've seen the test data for that additive

Octane is driven by the fuel itself and is controlled by the refinery from what I understand. There are octane booster additives but that's usually an aftermarket bottle, not in the pump additives. In my work I'm ordering either regular unleaded (87 octane) or premium unleaded (93 octane) from our local terminal. I have had many 3rd party fuel analysis performed on those unadditized terminal fuels and the measured octane is always dead on the 87 or 93 pump rating.

Something else to keep in mind is that the additive package is comprised of several things to boost the performance of the base fuel. Intake valve detergents, GDI injector detergents, antioxidants, corrosion inhibitors, antiwear, demulsifier, and sometimes other things depending on the product. Your top branded products (Shell, Exxon) have much higher concentrations of these things which improves overall performance especially if you're filling a fun car that gets a fresh tank of fuel once every couple months.

My advice to anyone that listens is to at minimum fill up with Top Tier branded gas, stick to Shell/Exxon/BP if you want the best. If you buy the cheap stuff on a regular basis, do 1-2 tanks of premium V-Power/Synergy or run a bottle of STP Complete (silver bottle) every oil change. Personally I run Shell as much as possible in all my cars, V-Power in the BMWs and regular in my wife's RAV4.

[hoki06]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

Follow the delivery/supply chain to the top. It varies by region. Not many brands on the east coast are still running their own refineries, notably Bayway (Exxon) and Hess no longer being owned by their respective brands. Inland, I understand that regional fuel terminals are built around a pipeline faucet and shared by everyone.

When in doubt, look at the station to see if they have ~15 foot long tank stick rulers near the fillers or vents. If you don't see a ruler, run! If you do see a ruler, feel free to examine the bottom foot of it to see if there's water paste on it and what it detected the last time it was used. Unless the paste formulation has changed since the 1980's, green paste/residue is good, pink/red is bad.....

It's safe to assume any in-ground gas station tank has water/sediment in the bottom. Additives are designed to grab that water/sediment and quickly drop it to the bottom. There's an old saying about don't fill up when you see a delivery truck unloading and I would agree with that because that's when things are getting stirred up. Come back later in the day and you'll be fine. Personally, I frequent stations that I know have high turnover and lots of volume being sold to ensure the fuel is fresh.

[megf]

I used to fill up at Valero for 2 reasons- you could get 91 and it tended to be cheaper then other stations. That is until I got bad gas in my Mercedes. $6000 later and a 1.5 year long fight with the gas station to get them to pay for the repairs (they paid for other customers repairs but said mine was "too expensive"). Now I only go to the top tier stations.

[Conissah]

I pretty much primarily use Costco gas. It's 10 minutes from my house and is significantly cheaper than normal gas stations, I get 93 for cheaper than Shell/Sheetz/BP have 87 for. I've heard Costco gas is crap, also heard its good, also heard it's super "fresh" b/'c so many people use it. Who knows...

[2000cs]

Back in the day I could really tell the difference in my cars (knock and fuel economy) because of mechanical timing, etc. Now with computer controls the car adjusts as much as possible so I can hardly ever tell if it is enjoying the fuel or working hard to compensate. But the better grades give better engine life and fuel economy in my experience (BMWs and Porsches).

GM recommends premium now for the big SUVs (Tahoe, Suburban, Denali, etc), but they run “fine” on regular, especially if being leased. My boss always runs regular in a Denali and seems to grenade the engines just shy of 100k miles (drives close to 50k per year). I suspect a lot of the turbo-4’s being sold now insist on premium.

Anecdotal, but I’m sticking with premium. I prefer Shell but it isn’t available all over the USA so sometimes I use BP or another good brand.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

Follow the delivery/supply chain to the top. It varies by region. Not many brands on the east coast are still running their own refineries, notably Bayway (Exxon) and Hess no longer being owned by their respective brands. Inland, I understand that regional fuel terminals are built around a pipeline faucet and shared by everyone.

When in doubt, look at the station to see if they have ~15 foot long tank stick rulers near the fillers or vents. If you don't see a ruler, run! If you do see a ruler, feel free to examine the bottom foot of it to see if there's water paste on it and what it detected the last time it was used. Unless the paste formulation has changed since the 1980's, green paste/residue is good, pink/red is bad.....

I worked at Quik Trip for years and none of the 2 dozen or so stores I ever worked at had one. The delivery drivers had them on their tanker trucks.

This would have been 98-01

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by hoki06

Edit: Phillips 66 additive is decent stuff and Top Tier registered, you're fine there. I've seen the test data for that additive

Thanks for that! I'll keep using the P66 for the M2.

Originally Posted by hoki06

My advice to anyone that listens is to at minimum fill up with Top Tier branded gas, stick to Shell/Exxon/BP if you want the best. If you buy the cheap stuff on a regular basis, do 1-2 tanks of premium V-Power/Synergy or run a bottle of STP Complete (silver bottle) every oil change. Personally I run Shell as much as possible in all my cars, V-Power in the BMWs and regular in my wife's RAV4.

In my daily, which is an RDX, very similar to your RAV4, I run 87 from Winks (it says Exxon on the map). I used to fill the M2/Exige there but they stopped carrying 93. I think it's the lowest common denominator gas, so I'm very interested in what you do with your RAV4.

Every oil change I need to run 2 tanks of good stuff basically, correct? And this would include my Phillips 66 or not? I don't like additives, so the STP thing is out for me.

Sorry for so many questions, I keep my cars a LONG time.

[Mosaud1998]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

Don't you sell cars? LOL!

Yeah, not Mercedes though

[JimmyJazz]

Originally Posted by Tambohamilton

So? Just because there isn't much, doesn't mean it's ineffective. The cetane booster I use is added at around 1 in 1000 dilution, for example, and it certainly works. The real pull here is that if you figure out what to add, you don't need much and can generally save a small amount of money if you're so inclined.

Did your friend make any comment on what the additives are, how effective they are, etc?

No, he didn’t say and wouldn’t know as he works for an oil drilling company.

[hoki06]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

Thanks for that! I'll keep using the P66 for the M2.



In my daily, which is an RDX, very similar to your RAV4, I run 87 from Winks (it says Exxon on the map). I used to fill the M2/Exige there but they stopped carrying 93. I think it's the lowest common denominator gas, so I'm very interested in what you do with your RAV4.

Every oil change I need to run 2 tanks of good stuff basically, correct? And this would include my Phillips 66 or not? I don't like additives, so the STP thing is out for me.

Sorry for so many questions, I keep my cars a LONG time.

A little more on the P66 stuff. It's a market general additive (same as unbranded) but treated at a higher treat rate in order to achieve Top Tier performance and use that registration. Shell, Exxon, BP, and maybe some others use their own bespoke additives created just for them vetted with above and beyond testing/data. So you really have unbranded market general LAC (Wawa, Sheetz, 7-11, etc.), branded market general with Top Tier (P66, Costco, etc.), and finally the premium branded bespoke (Shell, Exxon, BP) above and beyond Top Tier. Hard to know this unless you're in the industry.

As for the additive bottles, they're just a concentrated dose of additive. Most of those bottles are solvent but they contain a high dose (generally 2-4x Top Tier treat) of additive. Filling up with V-Power or Synergy every handful of tanks will be similar results.

[BMWGUYinCO]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

Thanks for all the responses. I didn't realize this would be one of those great debate threads.

Heck, you think this is a debate....start a new thread and ask if there really is a difference between standard Amazon basics audio/video cables and $400 Monster audio/video cables LOL!

But good topic, I learned some things.

[cmyx6go]

Originally Posted by BMWGUYinCO

Heck, you think this is a debate....start a new thread and ask if there really is a difference between standard Amazon basics audio/video cables and $400 Monster audio/video cables LOL!

But good topic, I learned some things.

Is the M Sport a real M?

[zx10guy]

hoki06 What are your thoughts on Sam's Club and BJ's gas?

[///d]

I never used to think much about where I stopped until I got a diesel. Now I pay close attention. I always try to stop at truck stops when traveling because they go through diesel faster and avoid any small town or down town stations that likely don't see much diesel traffic.

I have a Cenex station close to my house which is where I fill up the most. I never have issue with fuel from here or any Cenex I find on the road, which is always surprising because Cenex stations always seem to be dun down compared to everything else.

BP diesel burns super dirty. My rear bumper will be black after one tank. This happens after every BP fill regardless the location or state. I don't see performance issues, just dirty.

Caseys has been hit and miss. Some tanks have been fine, some have power loss and hesitation issues.

Kum-N-Go is a no-go for diesel. Every tank I've filled at a KNG has had sputtering and power loss issues. One stop in Colorado was so bad I was worried I was going to be stranded in the middle of nowhere.

I also add EDT every tank, and Extreme Diesel every oil change.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by hoki06

A little more on the P66 stuff. It's a market general additive (same as unbranded) but treated at a higher treat rate in order to achieve Top Tier performance and use that registration.

So what you're really telling me is that I need to look for a Shell, Exxon, or BP station to get my gas. I think my problem is going to be finding one of these stations that carries 93, and knowing if it's actually Shell when it's named "Mobil" or "Hucks" or the like.

Originally Posted by hoki06

Filling up with V-Power or Synergy every handful of tanks will be similar results.

Same thing here, ditch Phillips for Shell.

Thank you sir!

[e90335e36m3]

It's all the same in the sense that it meets the regulatory standards for the specific octane levels advertised. Whatever proprietary "additive" is used by any gasoline manufacturer may, but likely does not, produce a nominal positive impact in terms of performance or reliability. Car manufacturers' recommendations to use a specific brand of gasoline are just clever marketing partnerships. A car manufacturer is not going to risk a potential class action, when most of their customers use "less safe" Costco gasoline rather than the more safe "preferred" brand of gasoline for which the engine is designed. Otherwise, they would've mandated the use of the preferred gasoline. Whenever the Shell contract expires, and for the subsequent contract, if BMW and Chevron can make more money together, Chevron will be the preferred gas. I may be wrong but that's my 0.02 cents. I use whatever is available nearby.

[hoki06]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

hoki06 What are your thoughts on Sam's Club and BJ's gas?

Neither are listed on the Top Tier website and I know my company doesn't supply them. Considering the target market for Sam's Club (aka Walmart) and BJ's, I'm guessing both are buying the cheapest unbranded LAC they can find on the given day. I would consider these the same as Wawa, Sheetz, 7-11, and many others.

[NYG]

I use Shell whenever I can for good reason.

Using crappier fuel once in a while won't do anything bad to the car thanks to your ECU/filter.

I know of members on this forum who have had their cars serviced after Costco/Wawa fuel complaining about lack of power with that being the cause, crapped out fuel filters, and some gen 1 R8 guys have compared fouling on valves with different fuels.

Some of this can 100% be attributed to the fuel station or the distributor they get their fuel from, not the brand, but Shell has been consistently good fuel from station to station. Chevron is another good one from my experience.