[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I'm willing to bet the opposite. I'm willing to bet the cars will be cheaper to manufacture.

I hear ya. Not just being contrary. But I don't see the cars getting cheaper to buy when / if this rolls out. Even if it's cheaper to put a heated seat into all cars as opposed to most cars, BMW is not going to share that cost savings. Just make yet more money.

It's all a prediction at this point anyhow, if the cars cost more / less / same to build and if we see those savings in lower car prices or just get charged twice.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

I hear ya. Not just being contrary. But I don't see the cars getting cheaper to buy when / if this rolls out. Even if it's cheaper to put a heated seat into all cars as opposed to most cars, BMW is not going to share that cost savings. Just make yet more money.

It's all a prediction at this point anyhow, if the cars cost more / less / same to build and if we see those savings in lower car prices or just get charged twice.

Oh absolutely, I don't expect BMW to share the cost savings. My only point was that I don't think cars will get more expensive to us, as consumers, as a result of this. This will be margin improvements for BMW to line their pockets with.

[Cos270]

Unfortunately, most customers will accept/forget about it. Especially once all the major car makers are doing it (spoiler alert: most have plans to implement something like this in the next 5 years).

[B58-M340iX]

I wonder how many will follow along with my thinking:

The good: owners can opt to enable things that they may not initially be able to include in their monthly lease/finance payment as they are financially able. While I realize that could just mean "buy it then when able," it allows for enjoying the car now, making it modular, and enabling options later. Alternatively, customers who plan to lease the car can use heated seats 3 months out of the year at $49, instead of paying $499 for unlimited (making up numbers), which saves the leaser money. When the 2nd buyer comes along, they can opt for any features not enabled.

While this may ultimately make more money for BMW than if the option was permanent from the get go, I can see second owners gaining a benefit here. How many have purchased a car and been bummed that x,y,z option was wanted but not added? This allows owners to enable things like ACC, heated seats/steering, etc., or not, and continue to drive the car as is.

The bad: people may want to just buy a barebones car because they want the performance, look, and class of the car without all of the extras. A subscription manufacturing process means that cars are produced with a bunch of extra modules, sensors, wiring, heating elements, etc. which may not be desired/used by the owner - all of that adds extra weight. Someone buying an M340 or M3 may just want a car without all the "extra" so they are the fastest on the road/track that they can be.

It's a double-edged sword that doesn't please everyone. Although, I would rather cars that are specifically ordered be built to spec without "extras," while dealership allotment/fleet cars could have subscription options as a possibility. This can lower the initial cost of getting into the car and allow for extras to be added later.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by ///d

Bingo. It will probably cost BMW less to manufacture all vehicles with the same specs vs try to manage specific lines for specific features. Plus they will get more money from microtransactions worldwide vs what they may lose in manufacturing costs to put heaters in every vehicle. Now folks who may not have thought about heated seats have the chance to try it, and they will likely be sold on them.

My only issue is this, I've seen things state features like M Suspension are going to be subscription based as well. So now someone who has to replace suspension components has to deal with the cost and complexity of M Suspension when it's a feature they don't use or want.

Yeah definitely nuances like this would have to be worked out. I'm not sure what that would mean from a labor perspective in terms of fixing an M suspension, but from a part perspective we should still see the benefit of an optimized supply chain, so the parts themselves shouldn't add to the cost of repair.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by B58-M340iX

The bad: people may want to just buy a barebones car because they want the performance, look, and class of the car without all of the extras. A subscription manufacturing process means that cars are produced with a bunch of extra modules, sensors, wiring, heating elements, etc. which may not be desired/used by the owner - all of that adds extra weight. Someone buying an M340 or M3 may just want a car without all the "extra" so they are the fastest on the road/track that they can be.

I've thought about this as well. I'm not sure we're to the level yet where they'd roll this out to all models, and certainly not so much to the M models. But you can bet marketing will find a way to spin an "M pure" experience without all the "bloat".

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I've thought about this as well. I'm not sure we're to the level yet where they'd roll this out to all models, and certainly not so much to the M models. But you can bet marketing will find a way to spin an "M pure" experience without all the "bloat".

With BMW's current 'brilliant' marketing team, I would argue the opposite, a " M Black label" or some bs that will have MORE bloat and spin it as 'superior'

M engineers are still brilliant, don't get me wrong and they can still make a car drive well, its their marketing team that is looking at the cash cows that buys their cars now, because the enthusiasts who gave half a sh*t about the M experience has largely moved on.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by kyriian

With BMW's current 'brilliant' marketing team, I would argue the opposite, a " M Black label" or some bs that will have MORE bloat and spin it as 'superior'

M engineers are still brilliant, don't get me wrong and they can still make a car drive well, its their marketing team that is looking at the cash cows that buys their cars now, because the enthusiasts who gave half a sh*t about the M experience has largely moved on.

I agree their marketing has been having an identity crisis as of late and has been creating some questionable (putting it nicely) content.

But to be fair the decision to offer an "M pure" product doesn't lie with marketing, that lies with product management. Marketing just has to find a way to spin it so it sounds appealing and BMW can charge more for it even though it has less options.

In reality though, enthusiasts are a dying breed.

[///d]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I agree their marketing has been having an identity crisis as of late and has been creating some questionable (putting it nicely) content.

But to be fair the decision to offer an "M pure" product doesn't lie with marketing, that lies with product management. Marketing just has to find a way to spin it so it sounds appealing and BMW can charge more for it even though it has less options.

In reality though, enthusiasts are a dying breed.

I think a big reason enthusiasts are a dying breed is because of the lack of character in newer vehicles and how the push for green has made mods and tuning a much bigger no-no than before. It's becoming frowned upon to change anything bout a vehicle to make it your own. Plus the cost of anything vehicle or transportation related is getting more and more expensive, so cars are just becoming a tool for transport when needed and thats it.

I used to be able to tell the make and model of vehicles just by their headlights, but now everything uses the same damn shape and design. Even grill shapes, bumpers, etc are shared across multiple makes and platforms. No character. And they are becoming easier and easier to drive. The mechanical feel is gone.

I have also noticed that younger generations are starting to not care about driving, and many low 20something kids don't even have their license because they just use public transport.

That's at least what I've seen over the years. I used to go to meets and shows almost every month in the summer, but now theres hardly anything because businesses won't support them and you can't find locations to host them. Even the people that I saw at shows and such were becoming more and more disrespectful and inconsiderate. When I was growing up I was taught not to touch someone elses ride. Look and admire, but don't touch it. Now I see kids climbing all over others rides and parents not stopping them, grown adults messing with things in engine bays, scratching paint and wheels... it's sad.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by ///d

I think a big reason enthusiasts are a dying breed is because of the lack of character in newer vehicles and how the push for green has made mods and tuning a much bigger no-no than before. It's becoming frowned upon to change anything bout a vehicle to make it your own. Plus the cost of anything vehicle or transportation related is getting more and more expensive, so cars are just becoming a tool for transport when needed and thats it.

I used to be able to tell the make and model of vehicles just by their headlights, but now everything uses the same damn shape and design. Even grill shapes, bumpers, etc are shared across multiple makes and platforms. No character. And they are becoming easier and easier to drive. The mechanical feel is gone.

I have also noticed that younger generations are starting to not care about driving, and many low 20something kids don't even have their license because they just use public transport.

That's at least what I've seen over the years. I used to go to meets and shows almost every month in the summer, but now theres hardly anything because businesses won't support them and you can't find locations to host them. Even the people that I saw at shows and such were becoming more and more disrespectful and inconsiderate. When I was growing up I was taught not to touch someone elses ride. Look and admire, but don't touch it. Now I see kids climbing all over others rides and parents not stopping them, grown adults messing with things in engine bays, scratching paint and wheels... it's sad.

Yeah there's definitely some history behind the movement away from car enthusiasm. I remember reading an article about how kids no longer see cars as a "way of freedom" since they don't need to leave their house anymore. They play videogames online rather than in person like we did growing up. With social media, texting, internet, etc you have the world at your fingertips. And obviously the push towards safety and, as you said, the push for green.

This is also a big reason IMO why cars like Tesla do so well. They appeal less to car enthusiasts and more to tech enthusiasts. It's not about engagement anymore - it's about spreadsheet performance numbers and fart sounds.

As far as car prices - if you actually look at the curve of car pricing, it's more or less kept up with inflation. So, adjusted for inflation, cars aren't any more expensive today than they were 20+ years ago. I think it truly has to do with shifting priorities/ideas of leisure and less disposable income.

[Mason Hatcher]

Originally Posted by allinon72

Look around, everything is subscription based or moving in that direction. Pick the industry or product of your choice. It isn't going away, you can only hope to delay the inevitable. You'll own nothing and like it. It's just as much about control as it is profits.

Exactly who is trying to control you with subscription heated seats, and to what end? (pun intended)

Comments like that reek of a certain gun forum...

[///d]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

As far as car prices - if you actually look at the curve of car pricing, it's more or less kept up with inflation. So, adjusted for inflation, cars aren't any more expensive today than they were 20+ years ago. I think it truly has to do with shifting priorities/ideas of leisure and less disposable income.

That may be true, but looking at the price tag still feels different. As I get older higher prices don't seem to bother me, but when I talk to some younger folks mentioning even a $40k car their eyes get the size of golf balls and they say thats expensive. Which maybe thats good, maybe that means the generations coming into adulthood are getting past overspending and focusing more on saving?

[MacLean_007]

I would not worry about this. The heated seat subscription is the same as when Apple CarPlay first came out. BMW was charging individual’s to use Apple CarPlay, now it is free.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by ///d

Tmaybe that means the generations coming into adulthood are getting past overspending and focusing more on saving?

Yeah cause they witnessed the shitstorm that was the 08 financial crisis

But seriously I think it's just changing of perspective as you move up the financial ladder. I graduated from undergrad during the 08 crisis - a few years later I dropped $27k on a used Lexus IS and thought it was an insane purchase. Now, 14 years later, I'm spending nearly SEVEN TIMES that on the 2 cars I have on order and consider it within my means. If you had told me 14 years ago I'd be spending this much on cars I'd think you were on drugs and then I'd probably ask you for some.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

I'm willing to bet the car is already a few hundred dollars more expensive off the lot simply because the heaters are in those seats. Their materials, construction, shipment to the seat factory, installation in those seats, and so on isn't free. Even without using them, you've paid for them.

I get updates to maps, things like that, that are ongoing work for a car company. Heated seats are already installed, already ready to go, you've already paid for them, you're just being charged extra to use them.

It is in no way at all a cool thing that makes sense.

I'm sure it does cost more, but in many manufacturing scenarios it's cheaper to put all the optional material into a product and sell versions with some options disabled, than it is to make and stock multiple versions with different physical configurations. The heating elements may only cost $20 in material (I have no idea), but cost $30 in logistics to make, stock, and deliver different physical versions to the assembly line. Just ask tesla why they have so few options: Logistics, money saved... They specifically mention this as the reason. A lot of money can be saved in Logistics that pays for wasted product. This is an opportunity for BMW to get paid for that wasted product too.

[XMetal]

If people keep buying them, this may be the future.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by XMetal

If people keep buying them, this may be the future.

I'm gonna need to workout a lot more if that's my future

[B58-M340iX]

Looks like Doomguy's forearms from 2016/Eternal lol

[Humdizzle]

of course it will pass.

just wait until they lock your dampers in sport+ and you have to pay to have comfort mode back.

[BeEmVe]

Originally Posted by B58-M340iX

The bad: people may want to just buy a barebones car because they want the performance, look, and class of the car without all of the extras. A subscription manufacturing process means that cars are produced with a bunch of extra modules, sensors, wiring, heating elements, etc. which may not be desired/used by the owner - all of that adds extra weight. Someone buying an M340 or M3 may just want a car without all the "extra" so they are the fastest on the road/track that they can be.

The additional weight is in the noise. There is already a bunch of features built into BMW that are there but not accessible. For instance, how many people in NA have swapped the headlight switch so to get rear fog lights? It is std. in other parts of the world the only difference is the switch.

That said how people here own a smart phone? I bet 98% and you may think you own it but you are really renting it.

[B58-M340iX]

Originally Posted by BeEmVe

That said how people here own a smart phone? I bet 98% and you may think you own it but you are really renting it.

I paid outright for mine and have for 6 years-ish. There is an option for people to just buy their phone and not tie it to a lease/contract.

[BeEmVe]

Originally Posted by B58-M340iX

I paid outright for mine and have for 6 years-ish. There is an option for people to just buy their phone and not tie it to a lease/contract.

My point was missed. Yes you can buy it but you are going to be replacing it because the OS can not be updated and apps will no longer work, etc. So you have obsolete electronics thus you really rented it.