[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by 2023G87M2

Let's not forget even cheap ev's, require charging..most people don't have fast chargers or don't even know they have the potential for 240 volts (in the US it's possible with washing machine outlets),

If you have a house with a normal electrical panel, 240 V 20 amp chargers are more than adequate for people even with 100 mile commuting needs daily. Just have to replace the wire from the breaker to the outlet and get a new outlet and breaker.

Shawn

[brad850csi]

Just one thing to remember everyone, power costs are quite different around the world. The UK (and all of Europe for that matter) are known to have quite expensive petrol/diesel.

But check out the details on this video. Electricity in a rubbish Leaf can be more expensive than a normal small Mercedes.

I personally believe though that if you are able to afford a new EV that buying a Civic/Camry/etc that is 5 years old and just paying for petrol is a better option - cheap EVs are not a replacement for a normal car and the second hand market of normal cars provides plenty of great options

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

ALL new cars have been out of control price wise for years. Just keeps getting worse. At what point does it change? When no one can get to work?!

welcome to what the rest of the world is like since 1995, 2003, 2012, 2020 ...

capitalism does not benefit the working class

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

We are debating the same subject from different perspectives. I think you are using the cell phone analogy from an application perspective vs. a transportation perspective, which is my POV. I do not think the EV is going to follow the tech path (i.e. increased performance at lower cost over time) that the cell phone followed, because each device uses a different base technology that is tied to each devices drastically different primary function. Cell phones vastly increased in performance from their initial start in the 1970s because the downsizing of general electronic components (at the board level) was on a co-development path. And once the internet was commercialized a new form of communication opened up for the cell phone.

[The reason I said the cell phone analogy is stupid] The EV on the other hand has very different hurdles to cross before it matches or beats the current device it is competing with, which is ICE, for cost and convenience. The cell phone's competing device was the land line phone system. It was an easy fight for the cell phone to win because it was new technology offering a new wireless communications capability. The EV only has the little market share it has because of various mandates and government incentives and some believed narrative about saving the planet. Battery EV offers zero advantage over ICE. Hydrogen fuel cell (from a chemistry perspective is an engine) is EV that has a strong case for it, as does series hybrid ICE/Electric. Battery EV is a dead end. Hydrogen has fuel delivery, fuel cost, and on-board fuel storage hurdles. BEV is never going to match ICE for cost and convenience.

For the cell phone vs landline, yes it was about offering more convenience at a lower cost with subsidies to keep users. Smartphones are not cell phones though in that trajectory. That’s sort of the core point of my analogy. Smartphones are much more expensive than cell phones were and are continually going up in price and not down*. But they attacked the portable computing / laptop market not the cell phone market. As Apple noticed that consumers largely didn’t need the complexity of desktop computing OSes for consumption.

They saw the cell phone market ripe for disruption from the laptop market not from the communications market.

I see cars / transportation as ripe for disruption from the smartphone market and not the transportation market. EVs are a major source of that disruption even if they don’t appear to offer significant enough “wins” for the core “transportation” needs of cars.

Just like how the smartphone offers little for the core “phone” needs of cell phones.

My point with my perspective is simply looking at EVs purely from a transportation perspective alone is missing the point IMHO of where the market is shifting to. Similar to how BB & MS saw the iPhone as a failure because it lacked a keyboard…

* iPhone Price history:

[chad86tsi]

A smart phone offered a 2nd function to the already existing cell phone. An EV doesn't offer a transport platform any significant function to the established platform.

combining a laptop with a cell phone to make a smart phone was a revolution.

combining a vehicle with technology, well that happens in all propulsion systems available, where is the revolution for the use-case of vehicles?

The very first vehicles were electrics and steam powered. Then gasoline revolutionized things. The core function remained the same : moving people from A to Z, it just added to range, fuel availability, and platform efficiency < that was the revolutionary part.

The EV platform is presently only adding platform efficiency, and at great cost to range and fuel availability.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

ALL new cars have been out of control price wise for years. Just keeps getting worse. At what point does it change? When no one can get to work?!

I don't think my car will fit in the house to drive me to the other side of it.

[RM7]

Telework and they are making robots now that make fast food at the restaurant. So you don't have to go to work. lol

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

And... [cough]... Cost.

Which is the point of the thread, pricing lower income people out of the private transportation market.

And you can still buy a cheap flip phone with no sunset plan, limits or restrictions on use or range, and it's "refueled" the same as all the others.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

A smart phone offered a 2nd function to the already existing cell phone. An EV doesn't offer a transport platform any significant function to the established platform.

combining a laptop with a cell phone to make a smart phone was a revolution.

combining a vehicle with technology, well that happens in all propulsion systems available, where is the revolution for the use-case of vehicles?

The very first vehicles were electrics and steam powered. Then gasoline revolutionized things. The core function remained the same : moving people from A to Z, it just added to range, fuel availability, and platform efficiency < that was the revolutionary part.

The EV platform is presently only adding platform efficiency, and at great cost to range and fuel availability.

It shifts the car platform to align with the current technological realities. Always on so the device can more adapt to the user. This is a trend that’s been under way already in cars as a bolt on to ICE. Secondary batteries and high drain battery technologies like AGM to allow cars to stay on long after they’ve been shut off. EVs make this an easier reality as the standby draw on EVs is minimal.

For instance, I live in upstate NY and although it is illegal in NY you see countless cars running early in the morning to warm up and take the bite off our cold winter mornings. An EV can handle this easily without running an ICE engine in the worst possible conditions for it (very cold and idling). A connected EV can even potentially anticipate this automatically and known to warm up right around the time I always go to my car and leave. So I can just go about my morning without thinking about the car and managing it too.

Another thing you get up here is power outages thanks to things like ice storms (we’ve been told by our power company to be prepared for such an outage as a storm currently moves through). You could add expensive generators to your house and have to either manage fuel for them or pay hefty for a natural gas one… Or you could add an EV with V2H capabilities to the home (with a V2H charger) and you now have a generator available with the car and it isn’t something you have to “maintain” separately or fuel separately. Have it always on and in the future the car could potentially be used to balance grid demand to reduce power outages in the summer when power draw spikes.

But we’ll see where this convergence between EVs and Smartphones go. Especially if Apple and other cell phone companies launch their own EVs in the next few years as is anticipated. As I’m not convinced car makers have the vision to capitalize on this as they suck at tech.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

And... [cough]... Cost.

Which is the point of the thread, pricing lower income people out of the private transportation market.

That happened years ago I thought.

New cars have been unaffordable for anyone except older buyers for decades now. It is why enthusiasts cars have all died for SUVs… Older buyers aren’t looking for fun sporty sedans like people in their 20s.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

It shifts the car platform to align with the current technological realities. Always on so the device can more adapt to the user. This is a trend that’s been under way already in cars as a bolt on to ICE. Secondary batteries and high drain battery technologies like AGM to allow cars to stay on long after they’ve been shut off. EVs make this an easier reality as the standby draw on EVs is minimal.

I'd get your point if you were talking about Hybrids. Those have been around a long time though. Ditching ICE component doesn't advance anything, and introduces it's own liabilities.

I guess I don't see what user functions the user needs the car to adapt to that requires EV, and can't be served by ICE or hybrid.

A smart phone sucks to use as a laptop, and if it's made bigger to make that part work better, it then sucks to use as a phone.

For instance, I live in upstate NY and although it is illegal in NY you see countless cars running early in the morning to warm up and take the bite off our cold winter mornings. An EV can handle this easily without running an ICE engine in the worst possible conditions for it (very cold and idling). A connected EV can even potentially anticipate this automatically and known to warm up right around the time I always go to my car and leave. So I can just go about my morning without thinking about the car and managing it too.

And it uses what energy to do this magical feat? I can control the environment of my ICE car with my hand held display remote from 900' away. No EV magic required. Many newer cars can do this with their cell phone.

Also, if it's that cold, the battery range has already been greatly reduced due to cold battery syndrome. Seems like a step backwards in user experience.

Another thing you get up here is power outages thanks to things like ice storms (we’ve been told by our power company to be prepared for such an outage as a storm currently moves through). You could add expensive generators to your house and have to either manage fuel for them or pay hefty for a natural gas one… Or you could add an EV with V2H capabilities to the home (with a V2H charger) and you now have a generator available with the car and it isn’t something you have to “maintain” separately or fuel separately. Have it always on and in the future the car could potentially be used to balance grid demand to reduce power outages in the summer when power draw spikes.

You can put an inverter in an ICE car too.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

I'd get your point if you were talking about Hybrids. Those have been around a long time though. Ditching ICE component doesn't advance anything, and introduces it's own liabilities.

I guess I don't see what user functions the user needs the car to adapt to that requires EV, and can't be served by ICE or hybrid.

A smart phone sucks to use as a laptop, and if it's made bigger to make that part work better, it then sucks to use as a phone.

I am talking about hybrids as well if the battery is sufficiently large enough to allow EV only driving for some portion. My 530e PHEV is an Electric Vehicle by current definition since it can be charged run purely as an EV. I still think this is likely to be the dominant EV model for the US market unless we have breakthroughs in some areas to address some challenges.

And it uses what energy to do this magical feat? I can control the environment of my ICE car with my hand held display remote from 900' away. No EV magic required. Many newer cars can do this with their cell phone.

Also, if it's that cold, the battery range has already been greatly reduced due to cold battery syndrome. Seems like a step backwards in user experience.



You can put an inverter in an ICE car too.

Of course. But running an ICE engine to warm a cold card at idle is very bad for the engine. It is the worst condition to operate an engine in which is why I am unaware of any manufacturer that recommends it. They sell remote starter capabilities on the newer cars because they are confident the engine will still last the warranty period. They aren’t on the hook if it has problems after that.

I can heat my EV cabin inside my enclosed garage which is much warmer than parking it outside so I can run warm the car without killing myself (running an ICE car in a garage is a no no). This also heats the battery to counter the impact of a cold battery.

An EV as a home backup energy storage is that you don’t have to do anything special. You don’t have to plug an inverter into a car parked outside to run and power anything. You don’t have to carry gas cans home or anything other than plug your car in as normal and it will instantly flip over to using the battery when the power goes out.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

I am talking about hybrids as well if the battery is sufficiently large enough to allow EV only driving for some portion. My 530e PHEV is an Electric Vehicle by current definition since it can be charged run purely as an EV. I still think this is likely to be the dominant EV model for the US market unless we have breakthroughs in some areas to address some challenges.

Agreed, and such solutions don't require near the infrastructure changes required for full EV's replacing all other forms of drivetrain.

Of course. But running an ICE engine to warm a cold card at idle is very bad for the engine. It is the worst condition to operate an engine in which is why I am unaware of any manufacturer that recommends it. They sell remote starter capabilities on the newer cars because they are confident the engine will still last the warranty period. They aren’t on the hook if it has problems after that.

Fast charging is bad for EV's, but people do it because it's convenient.

Both systems have their detractors.

I can heat my EV cabin inside my enclosed garage which is much warmer than parking it outside so I can run warm the car without killing myself (running an ICE car in a garage is a no no). This also heats the battery to counter the impact of a cold battery.

Using the garage method, you could keep an ICE car warm with a space heater. If it's in a garage, it likely doesn't need much of a pre-heat anyway. Keep the car warm and it won't have cold idle damage. There are also block heaters for extreme cold or critical engines (like emergency vehicles and backup generators). They aren't even expensive. EV isn't not solving a previously unsolvable equation.

An EV as a home backup energy storage is that you don’t have to do anything special. You don’t have to plug an inverter into a car parked outside to run and power anything. You don’t have to carry gas cans home or anything other than plug your car in as normal and it will instantly flip over to using the battery when the power goes out.

your electrical company would disagree with you, you'll need to either add an expensive disconnect at the panel/meter and manually throw/activate that switch whenever the power goes out, or run extension cords like you would for an inverter. You can't backfeed power into the grid during an outage, and if you do, people can die.

At least with a gas can, you can refill easily in most situations, and store it if needed for a whole season. Storage is only the cost of the can, because you just put it in your tank in spring and drive on it. EV isn't not solving a previously unsolvable equation.

That many people have access to these technologies for ICE's already and aren't using them to a large degree seems to indicate how needed/wanted they really are, (or arent' depending on you you look at it).

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Agreed, and such solutions don't require near the infrastructure changes required for full EV's replacing all other forms of drivetrain.




Fast charging is bad for EV's, but people do it because it's convenient.

Both systems have their detractors.



Using the garage method, you could keep an ICE car warm with a space heater. If it's in a garage, it likely doesn't need much of a pre-heat anyway. Keep the car warm and it won't have cold idle damage. There are also block heaters for extreme cold or critical engines (like emergency vehicles and backup generators). They aren't even expensive. EV isn't not solving a previously unsolvable equation.

Sure, you could also heat your garage and entirely eliminate a cold car in winter altogether. There are a lot of ways to slice an onion.

All of the options you mentioned are suboptimal when compared to an EV.

your electrical company would disagree with you, you'll need to either add an expensive disconnect at the panel/meter and manually throw/activate that switch whenever the power goes out, or run extension cords like you would for an inverter. You can't backfeed power into the grid during an outage, and if you do, people can die.

At least with a gas can, you can refill easily in most situations, and store it if needed for a whole season. Storage is only the cost of the can, because you just put it in your tank in spring and drive on it. EV isn't not solving a previously unsolvable equation.

That many people have access to these technologies for ICE's already and aren't using them to a large degree seems to indicate how needed/wanted they really are, (or arent' depending on you you look at it).

That’s why utility companies are installing smart meters. The meter is able to have disconnects built into it so it can detect a dead utility side and disconnect a home from it to prevent a powered home from charging a line workers are on or may be in a downed state.

Smart Meters also allow the utility to instantly know which homes lack power and offer a lot of additional benefits.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/femp/bid...mobile-storage

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by g21

welcome to what the rest of the world is like since 1995, 2003, 2012, 2020 ...

capitalism does not benefit the working class

AKA it needs to change. Either cut the bs with overpriced everything or pay people enough

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

Sure, you could also heat your garage and entirely eliminate a cold car in winter altogether. There are a lot of ways to slice an onion.

Of you could heat just the car interior. My portable thermostat controlled heater is only 5# and cost about $40. I don't bother putting it in my car because I have heated seats and steering wheel. I don't cold idle my car, so selling this as a feature is useless to me.

All of the options you mentioned are suboptimal when compared to an EV.

And most people don't need these solutions to problems they don't have, yet you advertise them as key reasons why they are better. Better for whom?

A block heater is cheaper than upgrading to an EV or adding a wall charger, and block heaters don't cause major range loss. Suboptimal is a perspective.

That’s why utility companies are installing smart meters. The meter is able to have disconnects built into it so it can detect a dead utility side and disconnect a home from it to prevent a powered home from charging a line workers are on or may be in a downed state.

how many have hese?

Smart Meters also allow the utility to instantly know which homes lack power and offer a lot of additional benefits.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/femp/bid...mobile-storage

I have a smart meter, and didn't need to buy an EV to get it. Not all smart meter systems are created or operated the same.

If I wanted to, I could install an inverter in my ICE and charge the grid with it, but I don't want to kill my fuel mileage (range). Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's a good idea.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Of you could heat just the car interior. My portable thermostat controlled heater is only 5# and cost about $40. I don't bother putting it in my car because I have heated seats and steering wheel. I don't cold idle my car, so selling this as a feature is useless to me.

You do you there. I'll continue to plug in my PHEV and let it warm my car automatically based on my schedule. I'm not wasting time with a space heater in my garage heating my lawn mower

A block heater is cheaper than upgrading to an EV or adding a wall charger, and block heaters don't cause major range loss. Suboptimal is a perspective.

People aren't idling their cars to heat their engines. They are idling their cars to heat the cabin... Not sure how a block heater helps this.

I have a smart meter, and didn't need to buy an EV to get it. Not all smart meter systems are created or operated the same.

If I wanted to, I could install an inverter in my ICE and charge the grid with it, but I don't want to kill my fuel mileage (range). Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Obviously, you don't need an EV for a smart meter. Smart meters offer a LOT of benefits that aren't limited to EVs. Like I said earlier, utilities can get real-time information for power outages and so much more.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I live rural. We lose electricity occasionally. I have a 22 year old 4.5kW Generac portable I bought for $250 (1/2 price) from a guy who bought it for Y2K. He never even put oil in the engine. I back feed my panel through a spare 220V breaker that puts 120V across both buss bars. I fabbed an extension cord to run outside to the generator. It runs my well, furnace, refrigerator, TV, and some light circuits. To run the water heater, I just drop all the other circuits for an hour or two. 15 gallons of fuel powers the house for a week. It's a setup I've had in place before Tesla was a twinkle in Elon's eye.

An EV gets you 2 to 3 days at best. I can go buy more gasoline.

BTW, all critical infrastructure in the USA is backed up by diesel power generation. All of it.

A typical EV can power a typical house for over a month. But very few people have backup power systems available to them. The value proposition of bidirectional charging is they'll have that backup power on tap without any extra work.

Allowing us to lower the impact of power outages across large areas as the EV transition progresses.

[Tejas1836]

"A typical EV can power a typical house for over a month. But very few people have backup power systems available to them. The value proposition of bidirectional charging is they'll have that backup power on tap without any extra work."
Say WUT? Maybe a couple of days.

[freakystyly]

Avg household kWh consumption is 29 a day. Largest EV battery so far would probably be the Hummer EV with 212 kWh so you're good for a week with one of those monstrosities in your garage. The average Tesla would be closer to 80 kWh, or a bit under 3 days.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

EVs are here to stay and will be the future with no real way to unring the bell. There are some near term challenges that are being worked on and the jury is still out on if they’ll be solved (such as charging in shard living environments as well as battery recycling to name a couple). But EVs are currently much cheaper to charge than gas is to fuel. For my PHEV charging at home is less than 1/3rd the cost of a gallon of fuel (and I get more than 1 gallon of fuel equiv for a full EV charge).

EVs are shifting cars to “always on” and that’s a trend that consumers are demanding more of as they expect things to always be connected now. So you can heat/cool the car as needed without being in it, send destinations, check basic satuses for stuff like closed windows and doors. That’s today. Tomorrow becomes cars able to help you find a spot more efficiently by letting you know the car in front just left in a crowded downtown area and other new features I’m not currently creative enough to envision.

It is OK to say “I can’t picture a future different than the one I know” as that’s the realtity for most people. They cling to what they know because seeing a different world that doesn’t yet exist is too hard.

It made no sense that people would pay insane amounts of money for phones in their pockets that didn’t even have basic features work users were thought to have neeeded. It also made no sense that people would upgrade those devices annually when people kept cell phones until they broke as they were basic “appliances”. Yet here we are. Most people own a smartphone in the developed world and they are changed much more frequently on average than “when they are broken”.

EVs will continue to bring some game changing realities for consumers and will be increasingly sought after and eventually you may see the future once it is more clearly in view as the current norm. I’ll admit though, there are still some who think flip phones were the correct reality and that eventually the smartphone bubble will burst and we’ll all be back there… In 2002 paying for “minutes”, “text messages”, and “megabytes”. The way god intended.

You can have your always on car. No thanks for me. When I turn off my car, I want it off. Granted that's really not the case with modern cars as the various computer modules are still running in a standby mode when the engine is off. But none of my vehicles are actively connected to anything accepting or transfering data. And that's the way I want it to be.

Many may view me as a caveman with this view. But I'm far from it. As you've shared that you're in IT, so am I. I've designed and deployed data centers. Heck I have a mini data center in my basement with various firewalls, network switches one of which is a 100Gbps switch, SAN arrays, servers, wireless controllers, etc etc. I just take a more pragmatic view of all this IoT and being connected trend. I don't want my car to be hacked. I don't want my car to be controlled by some arbitrary government mandate that will turn off my car if I'm viewed to have exceeded my "allowed" carbon or kW limits.

It's truly amazing people are so blinded by the propaganda of just giving up their privacy and freedoms to have frivolous conveniences. I remember a thread on the off topic where the praises were being sang about a Ring drone and not thinking clearly what this really means to your privacy and security.

[kyriian]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...han-you-think/
Connected and always on just opens doors to unsavory people. Especially if you have something flashy (which if you have a EV connected to the very safe interweb, you'd have to be fairly comfortable) its just a sign to scream 'rob me'

Think ill keep my unconnected Scion around

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

You do you there. I'll continue to plug in my PHEV and let it warm my car automatically based on my schedule. I'm not wasting time with a space heater in my garage heating my lawn mower

I'm not either, I park mine in a garage and use my seat heaters. It's a problem that doesn't' need solved for me. EV's aren't going to make my life better, and I don't need to pay more for stuff I don't need or want.

People aren't idling their cars to heat their engines. They are idling their cars to heat the cabin... Not sure how a block heater helps this.

reduces cold idle time, that was your concern: cold idle time.

A typical EV can power a typical house for over a month. But very few people have backup power systems available to them. The value proposition of bidirectional charging is they'll have that backup power on tap without any extra work.

If you roll into your garage half full on a 75KW battery, and don't want to leave yourself stranded by running the car completely out of range, you will at best have a days worth of power if you intend to carry the whole house. If not, you may as well use a backup generator or buy a power wall battery. Neither of those will impact your ability to drive your car. It goes back to : just because it can do it doesn't make it a good idea. If everyone used this model of interconnected backflow via their EV into the grid to fill in small scale outages, thus draining their batteries, what is gong to happen when the power comes back?. If you had a 1000 EV's backfilling during the outage, when power comes back you will have 1000 EV's that all need charged at the same time. It will be nearly impossible for the power company to pick up and hold that load on top of all the other surge loads.

I work for a major utility, I've seen load pickup demand spikes. When 1000 refrigerators and freezers and furnace fans all kick on at the same time, it's ugly. Lets add 1000 EV battery loads to that.

Originally Posted by zx10guy

You can have your always on car. No thanks for me. When I turn off my car, I want it off. Granted that's really not the case with modern cars as the various computer modules are still running in a standby mode when the engine is off. But none of my vehicles are actively connected to anything accepting or transfering data. And that's the way I want it to be.

Many may view me as a caveman with this view. But I'm far from it. As you've shared that you're in IT, so am I. I've designed and deployed data centers. Heck I have a mini data center in my basement with various firewalls, network switches one of which is a 100Gbps switch, SAN arrays, servers, wireless controllers, etc etc. I just take a more pragmatic view of all this IoT and being connected trend. I don't want my car to be hacked. I don't want my car to be controlled by some arbitrary government mandate that will turn off my car if I'm viewed to have exceeded my "allowed" carbon or kW limits.

It's truly amazing people are so blinded by the propaganda of just giving up their privacy and freedoms to have frivolous conveniences. I remember a thread on the off topic where the praises were being sang about a Ring drone and not thinking clearly what this really means to your privacy and security.

And since a car is a closed OS, how could you stop an intrusion at home if you let it stay connected? At least with most desktop/server OS's, you have a pretty good amount of view/control of what it can and can't do with respect to who it talks to and why. Our connected cars? not so much. One might say block/firewall the MAC, but now it's not going to function as designed. Not so on un-connected cars that don't need access to function. If it roams or uses cellular whoe not at home, good luck blocking that. without killing off other processes that are now integral to the cars function.

We should ask ourselves, do we need any of this?

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

You can have your always on car. No thanks for me. When I turn off my car, I want it off. Granted that's really not the case with modern cars as the various computer modules are still running in a standby mode when the engine is off. But none of my vehicles are actively connected to anything accepting or transfering data. And that's the way I want it to be.

Many may view me as a caveman with this view. But I'm far from it. As you've shared that you're in IT, so am I. I've designed and deployed data centers. Heck I have a mini data center in my basement with various firewalls, network switches one of which is a 100Gbps switch, SAN arrays, servers, wireless controllers, etc etc. I just take a more pragmatic view of all this IoT and being connected trend. I don't want my car to be hacked. I don't want my car to be controlled by some arbitrary government mandate that will turn off my car if I'm viewed to have exceeded my "allowed" carbon or kW limits.

It's truly amazing people are so blinded by the propaganda of just giving up their privacy and freedoms to have frivolous conveniences. I remember a thread on the off topic where the praises were being sang about a Ring drone and not thinking clearly what this really means to your privacy and security.

The promise of "convenience" will be the downfall of many of the freedoms we enjoy today. Personal transportation just being one of them.