[rogerxp]

I've spoken to the dealer again and got overnight to think about things. I confirmed exactly what they were looking for & what might need doing.

The technician has reported loose/light gear changes but no linkages, etc, seem loose. Their advice is to remove the gearbox so they can access the clutch and selectors. Apparently they have never found a fault with the selectors so, if this is to be beleived, it's clutch related.

If the clutch is found to have 'uneven' wear then it'll be covered under warranty. This probably being due to leaking seals or worn spring(s). I am fully covered under warranty.

If the clutch is found to have 'even' wear then it's not covered as is deemed to be wear and tear. I've got the foot the whole bill.

Given the age & mileage of my vehicle it's 50/50 which way it'll go as it really depends on how the previous driver drove the car for 39k miles and whether I've finished it off over the next 6k miles. That's when the argument starts but it's impossible to prove either way.

I'd have to apparently negotiate with the dealer I bought the car from for some sort of contribution if it's wear & tear. This would be difficult at the best of times however in today's economic conditions I can't see a dealer parting with cash for a car that left them 8 months ago.

I can see the dealers point however would feel extremely that I've been treated somewhat harshly if I end up with a large bill.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by rogerxp

I've spoken to the dealer again and got overnight to think about things. I confirmed exactly what they were looking for & what might need doing.

The technician has reported loose/light gear changes but no linkages, etc, seem loose. Their advice is to remove the gearbox so they can access the clutch and selectors. Apparently they have never found a fault with the selectors so, if this is to be beleived, it's clutch related.

If the clutch is found to have 'uneven' wear then it'll be covered under warranty. This probably being due to leaking seals or worn spring(s). I am fully covered under warranty.

If the clutch is found to have 'even' wear then it's not covered as is deemed to be wear and tear. I've got the foot the whole bill.

Given the age & mileage of my vehicle it's 50/50 which way it'll go as it really depends on how the previous driver drove the car for 39k miles and whether I've finished it off over the next 6k miles. That's when the argument starts but it's impossible to prove either way.

I'd have to apparently negotiate with the dealer I bought the car from for some sort of contribution if it's wear & tear. This would be difficult at the best of times however in today's economic conditions I can't see a dealer parting with cash for a car that left them 8 months ago.

I can see the dealers point however would feel extremely that I've been treated somewhat harshly if I end up with a large bill.

I think they are still messing you about mate.

Your problem is that the transmission is popping out of gear. I really don't think that's going to be related to the clutch.

Easiest way to check the performance of the clutch is to try to pull away in top gear. If you can, then the clutch isn't worn. Before I let anyone remove my gearbox to look at the clutch I would want to know if this had been done.

My feeling is that this is gearbox related - probably to do with the synchros.

The approved used car warranty is detailed here:

http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/owner/ser...4ubmV0,00.html

The only relevant exclusion is 'clutch facings'. So if you have burned the clutch out this won't be covered.

However, as said if the car pulls away smoothly in top gear the clutch plates are find and the problem is elsewhere.

How come I can propose a way to check this that is free, but your dealer needs to spend £300?

Edit: Link to web info on symptoms of clutch wear:

http://www.crxsi.com/articles/read/c...ember-2008.htm

Popping out gear is NOT a symptom.

[dxb335d]

so what happens when they replace the ok clutch and find a week down the line its still popping out if gear. Hope they refund the clutch cost.

Pretty annoyed with your situation and really feel for you mate, Puts you off owning an expensive car..

The car should not cost you a penny with any failure for 3 years 100k miles.

[rogerxp]

Thanks for your support; at least it's not just me then!!!

When I had issues with the harsh suspension, finally put down purely to the Bridgestones (I think ), the Service Manager was pretty helpful. I might nip in tomorrow and have a chat with him about the situation and see what he can suggest.

I've got a brand new 320i SE Coupe (auto) to swan around in, even though it's massively underpowered (compared to what I'm used to), the ride is silky smooth compared to mine - I'm happy to hold onto the Coupe for as long as possible.

[dxb335d]

So how does the coupe compare to yours? What spec is it?

[rogerxp]

The coupe was a '58' 2.0i SE Auto (200 miles on the clock). Space Grey, black leather, heated seats & zenons was about all I could see as extras. No nav. Lovely to drive (comfort wise) but massively underpowered (the auto didn't help).

My 330d is hugely more powerful but the suspension just too hard for my liking (and I'm used to firm rides).

[rogerxp]

UPDATE - went in this morning to have a chat with the Service Manager. Got my car back. He said that they have exhausted their checks to diagnose the problem externally and can only confirm that there is something not quite right. The next step is to remove the gearbox to have a closer look.

It's still 50/50 whether it's covered by warranty. The questions which remain unanswered are i) has something mechanical failed ii) did the 39k previous owner miles worn down the clutch iii) has my 6k miles finished off the clutch. Only i) can be answered by removing the clutch; ii) & iii) are just accusing fingers being pointed!!!

I suspect the previous owner who did 40k in 2 years virtually lived on motorways so shouldn't have been too heavy on the clutch. My 6k will have been much harder miles being hardly on a motorway however still seems to have worn quickly (if obviously it's proved to be wear & tear).

Anyway, going to monitor the situation and make a decision in the first week in April (before warranty expires on 1st May). If it keeps popping out of gear then I'll have to do something. Essentially it's just a £1k gamble. If I keep the car for another couple of years (which was the orginial plan) then I'll probably have to get a clutch at some point; this way it's just sooner than planned. It could all be covered under warranty yet though...

[NFS]

Originally Posted by rogerxp

UPDATE - went in this morning to have a chat with the Service Manager. Got my car back. He said that they have exhausted their checks to diagnose the problem externally and can only confirm that there is something not quite right. The next step is to remove the gearbox to have a closer look.

It's still 50/50 whether it's covered by warranty. The questions which remain unanswered are i) has something mechanical failed ii) did the 39k previous owner miles worn down the clutch iii) has my 6k miles finished off the clutch. Only i) can be answered by removing the clutch; ii) & iii) are just accusing fingers being pointed!!!

I suspect the previous owner who did 40k in 2 years virtually lived on motorways so shouldn't have been too heavy on the clutch. My 6k will have been much harder miles being hardly on a motorway however still seems to have worn quickly (if obviously it's proved to be wear & tear).

Anyway, going to monitor the situation and make a decision in the first week in April (before warranty expires on 1st May). If it keeps popping out of gear then I'll have to do something. Essentially it's just a £1k gamble. If I keep the car for another couple of years (which was the orginial plan) then I'll probably have to get a clutch at some point; this way it's just sooner than planned. It could all be covered under warranty yet though...

1. Are you going to extend the warranty?

2. Did the service manager explain how a worn clutch could cause the car to jump out of gear?

3. Is there any sign that the clutch is slipping - have they tried to pull away in a high gear?

While it's possible that your clutch is worn I think it's VERY unlikely that it is the cause of the problem.

I would talk to the service manager again and get him to list (in order of likelihood) the things that COULD be wrong. I'm guessing that a worn clutch will be well down that list (if it is there at all).

I suspect that this would force him to admit that it is unlikely that this would be anything other than a standard warranty claim and on that basis I would expect him to carry out the further investigations for free.

The cost of this opening up will be claimable by the dealer under the following wording:

"Reasonable diagnostic charges associated with covered parts only will be accepted as part of a warranty claim."

[Budgie]

I agree with NFS...try selecting a higher gear and slip the cut a little and then see if the clutch re aligns its self.

You have nothing to lose as basicaly u admit its a new clutch sooner or later.

Youll also be surprised at the wording pointed out by NFS.They have a reasonable point in order to correctly diagnose the problem.This maybe your get out or at least a reduction on cost/warranty basis.

Good luck

[dxb335d]

Not good at all any of this, I thought people buy new/newish cars for peace of mind.

[rogerxp]

Right, treat me like a complete idiot here (it's the norm ), how EXACTLY do I do this clutch test myself. When you say 'use a high gear' are you talking 4th or as high as 6th?? What am I expecting to witness/suffer if it is going - car stalling/not moving/whining?? If it's OK (to a degree) I presume it'll move off happily (if slowly and after giving it a few extra beans)??? Cheers.

Your comments are spot on Carlos (as are everyone elses), I know this car had high-ish mileage (motorway I presume), but knew my low miles would average it out of the 36 month term. A 2 yr old BMW should be virtually as new shouldn't it. Didn't expect a clutch needing to be changed so soon.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by rogerxp

Right, treat me like a complete idiot here (it's the norm ), how EXACTLY do I do this clutch test myself. When you say 'use a high gear' are you talking 4th or as high as 6th?? What am I expecting to witness/suffer if it is going - car stalling/not moving/whining?? If it's OK (to a degree) I presume it'll move off happily (if slowly and after giving it a few extra beans)??? Cheers.

Your comments are spot on Carlos (as are everyone elses), I know this car had high-ish mileage (motorway I presume), but knew my low miles would average it out of the 36 month term. A 2 yr old BMW should be virtually as new shouldn't it. Didn't expect a clutch needing to be changed so soon.

I'd try it in 5th.

Stick the car in gear and try to pull off smoothly. You'll need plenty of revs, or it will stall.

You are looking for any sign that the clutch is slipping. If this is the case the revs will climb, but the car won't move forward. The engine will sound like it is 'over revving' - ie the same noise you get if you depress the clutch pedal without releasing the accelerator.

If you can pull away smoothly without this happening, they the clutch plates are gripping together properly.

[xenon]

...and as NFS and others have said, a worn clutch will not and cannot cause the car to jump out of gear. Is it always the same gear it jumps out of? Is the 'box noisy?

Sounds like selector fingers (bent) or a knackered syncro hub.

[rogerxp]

I'll give the clutch test a go and see what happens.

It's sounding like people's huntches are that there is probably something mechanical causing it to jump out of gear as opposed to wear & tear which is some comfort at least.

As I say, I'll probably see what happens over the next couple of months before doing anything.

The dealer did say that they have a lady with an X3 that'd only done 14k miles where they've had to again ask for authority just in case it's wear & tear (again they need to remove the box to properly diagnose it). She's not bothered having it checked - apparently it was hard to get into gear sometimes so she's just going to try harder and save her money!!! The dealer did tell the lady that it's highly unlikely to be wear & tear but had to warn her anyway and ask her permission before doing anything. The more I think about it I think it's just bureaucracy gone mad & trying to cover their backs. It might be highly unlikely that I'll get a bill however once it's been mentioned that it could happen it makes you panic. Ignorance is bliss sometimes!!!

[NFS]

Originally Posted by rogerxp

I'll give the clutch test a go and see what happens.

It's sounding like people's huntches are that there is probably something mechanical causing it to jump out of gear as opposed to wear & tear which is some comfort at least.

As I say, I'll probably see what happens over the next couple of months before doing anything.

The dealer did say that they have a lady with an X3 that'd only done 14k miles where they've had to again ask for authority just in case it's wear & tear (again they need to remove the box to properly diagnose it). She's not bothered having it checked - apparently it was hard to get into gear sometimes so she's just going to try harder and save her money!!! The dealer did tell the lady that it's highly unlikely to be wear & tear but had to warn her anyway and ask her permission before doing anything. The more I think about it I think it's just bureaucracy gone mad & trying to cover their backs. It might be highly unlikely that I'll get a bill however once it's been mentioned that it could happen it makes you panic. Ignorance is bliss sometimes!!!

Sometimes difficulty getting a car INTO gear can be a symptom of a worn clutch and it IS possible to wear a clutch out very quickly if you drive around with your foot resting lightly on the clutch pedal.

Bearing in mind that the dealer said her problem was 'highly unlikely' to be wear and tear related I would be asking him to make a similar assessment of your problem.

Since 'popping out of gear' is not normally a symptom of clutch wear I think the real answer is 'incredibly unlikely' or maybe even 'impossible'.

[dxb335d]

Could fluid from a slave cylinder be leaking onto the clutch, but even then that would just slip not pop out of gear.

[rogerxp]

The assessment from the dealer is that it's 50/50 due to the age of the vehicle & mileage. Leaking Seals (of some sort) were mentioned as a possible issue but need to take the box out to check this amoungst other issues.

[roofer]

The previous owner has drove the car resting his hand on the stick. This has caused accelerated wear in the selector mechanism.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by roofer

The previous owner has drove the car resting his hand on the stick. This has caused accelerated wear in the selector mechanism.

I think you are almost certainly right.

Odd that a trained mechanic would suggest that this could be clutch related though.

If I was cynical I would wonder if they had said that because clutch linings are listed as consumables in the approved used car warranty and gear box selector mechanisms are not.

If they wanted to argue that the gearbox was not covered they would need to prove that it had been abused, which is a whole lot harder than pretending this was related to the clutch.

[dxb335d]

I still cant get over this... i really cant....

FFS Its a 2 year old BMW within warranty. It should be accepted with open and loving arms by BMW and returned to the owner with no hassle or cost and a nice smile when placing the keys in the owners palm...