[ontopofm]

I just looked at a friend's 335 with stock IC and mine. The stock IC sits higher and exposes more than the the VK and therefore more clearance to the air. Bottom half of the VK is covered by the bumper

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

Consistent AIT's do not tell the entire story, it only tells us how efficiently the FMIC cools the air - but that's it. My testing will show how much more power the car is making over the stock fmic on the same dyno running a map designed for the FMIC vs. a map designed for the stock FMIC. Combining all the data would be the "entire story".

You are very argumentative with me about this stuff... I have never said testing AIT's was a bad thing and I've never discounted your results. You make it seem like I have. Consistent power is the main reason one gets an upgraded FMIC, but with that (among other things) comes the ability to run more boost and make more power, which I will be testing.

Because you don't get it. I am not trying to be rude, but really seriously what are you testing? The IC or the map? I can run 1 more psi on my JB3 map and it will produce more power regardless of what intercooler I have. Does that mean magically my intercooler is doing a better job? No, it means I am running more boost. Do you test an upgraded oil cooler to see if you can run a map to make more power because of the lower oil temps? I am just trying to standardize testing to help the community. That is it man.

If you want to see if the IC is making more power, then test the car on the identical map. Let me know what your tests show. If you want to test the IC, then do the real world AIT testing. Every single person on here that is educated about IC's will tell you they do two things:

1. Cool AITs
2. Reduce pressure loss across the inlet/outlet

All gain about 1 psi, so we know how that will affect power.

I have been very unbiased in my testing and it would be great to see a similar test to see where you stand on the VK.

[jpsimon]

I do get it, it's unfortunate that you don't understand that. We are after different things... you are about standardizing an AIT test (which to be honest is actually very hard to do.. lots of 1-4th gear pulls over and over? although obviously the best method, is extremely hard to find a place to accomplish this), i am about testing the FMIC with the map designed for it to make the most power possible. So essentially yes, as you said I am testing the map, which I could only test with an upgraded FMIC

We are clearly interested in different things, but what's funny is that you are all about data aquisition, yet you are ready to only blindly "infer" about how much power it'll make on the dyno. Sorry but that is ridiculous. It is still valuable information that I gaurantee people will want to see: Stage 2 fully catless vs. Stage 3 fully catless with a FMIC. You don't have to like the information, and can pass it off as "worthless", but others will feel differently.

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

Because you don't get it. I am not trying to be rude, but really seriously what are you testing? The IC or the map? Do you test an upgraded oil cooler to see if you can run a map to make more power because of the lower oil temps? I am just trying to standardize testing to help the community. That is it man.

If you want to see if the IC is making more power, then test the car on the identical map. Let me know what your tests show. If you want to test the IC, then do the real world AIT testing. Every single person on here that is educated about IC's will tell you they do two things:

1. Cool AITs
2. Reduce pressure loss across the inlet/outlet

All gain about 1 psi, so we know how that will affect power.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

I do get it, it's unfortunate that you don't understand that. We are after different things... you are about standardizing an AIT test (which to be honest is actually very hard to do.. lots of 1-4th gear pulls over and over? although the best method, it is extremely hard to find a place to accomplish this), i am about testing the FMIC with the map designed for it to make the most power possible. So essentially yes, as you said I am testing the map, which I could only test with an upgraded FMIC

We are clearly interested in different things, but what's funny is that you are all about data aquisition, yet you are ready to only blindly "infer" about how much power it'll make on the dyno. Sorry but that is ridiculous. It is still valuable information that I gaurantee people will want to see: Stage 2 fully catless vs. Stage 3 fully catless with a FMIC. You don't have to like the information, and can pass it off as "worthless", but others will feel differently.

I will tell you what. Run the car on the identical map first to see if the IC is making more power. Then finish off your testing. I know you want more power. I know you want to see a stage 2 vs. stage 3 dyno. If you do a test with the same map you will know "if the intercooler is making more power".

If it is about having bragging rights, then I understand. If you want the community to know what intercooler is best, then there is testing that can be done.

[Vince@ V K Motorwerks]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

JP, the IC is about making consistent power. I think people lose their mind sometimes on this forum with dynos. You are never going to get real world data on a dyno. The fan is not adjusting to your speed. If you get consistent AITs, then the rest is accurately inferred. You can manipulate the map to make consistent power. Consistent AITs tell the entire story.

That data has already been published by us for our intercooler. The ecu will hit its boost target regardless of the IC. So something to see is not just the hp/tq numbers but also what is the boost required to hit those targets. If you do 3 back to back runs on a dyno and log your IATs with both the stock and upgraded IC you can determine the efficiency of the unit by the amount of boost required to hit the targeted hp/tq numbers. Less boost required to hit say 360hp means you can turn your boost up and perhaps obtain 10-15hp more. JP is right as well, It is important to duplicate consistent hp/tq numbers run after run. That will show how well a IC can resist heat soak.

[jpsimon]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

I will tell you what. Run the car on the identical map first to see if the IC is making more power. Then finish off your testing. I know you want more power. I know you want to see a stage 2 vs. stage 3 dyno. If you do a test with the same map you will know "if the intercooler is making more power".

I'm going to the dyno with the stage 3 map fully adapted, sorry. As I said, I'm going for the most power with a map designed for the mods I have. The car won't make much more power with just a FMIC, i never said it would: the car adapts to the change too much as was shown in VK's original thread. The point of getting a FMIC is to be able to run a more aggressive map, and that's what I will be doing.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks

That data has already been published by us for our intercooler. The ecu will hit its boost target regardless of the IC. So something to see is not just the hp/tq numbers but also what is the boost required to hit those targets. If you do 3 back to back runs on a dyno and log your IATs with both the stock and upgraded IC you can determine the efficiency of the unit by the amount of boost required to hit the targeted hp/tq numbers. Less boost required to hit say 360hp means you can turn your boost up and perhaps obtain 10-15hp more. JP is right as well, It is important to duplicate consistent hp/tq numbers run after run. That will show how well a IC can resist heat soak.

Vince, you know I have no issues with you at all. I have supported you and will continue to.

You and I know the dyno is not going to show much. That is more of a test of the fan than anything else. If the IC is producing consistent AITs, then you know it will produce consistent power. If you are looking at HP/TQ numbers, then you must infer that it is the IC when it could be less agressive AIT boost decay in the tune, more boost, etc. You cannot seperate the factors. However if you focus on the AIT temps, then you know exactly what can be attributed to the IC.

All I hoped is that we could get testing of all the available ICs under similar tests, so we could post up a Sticky and know what is the best choice. That is all. I will leave you guys alone now.

[jpsimon]

Boosted, i never said i wouldn't go and do testing for you. But testing the stage 3 map with this FMIC is the most important thing at this point.

I'm still searching for a place I can safely do multiple 1-4th gear pulls (Without getting thrown in jail). Maybe it's easy by you, but around here there is no where I can accomplish this test. The most I can do is ONE 1-4th gear pull from a stop sign onramp to the highway.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

Boosted, i never said i wouldn't go and do testing for you. But testing the stage 3 map with this FMIC is the most important thing at this point.

I'm still searching for a place I can safely do multiple 1-4th gear pulls (Without getting thrown in jail). Maybe it's easy by you, but around here there is no where I can accomplish this test. The most I can do is ONE 1-4th gear pull from a stop sign onramp to the highway.

I am not saying what you should do at all. I am just saying the best way to test it. As I said I will move on, and I hope you pull the high dyno numbers you are looking for.

[jpsimon]

I understand, and agree your testing would be the best. I've never said otherwise. It's just extremely hard to actually do that testing without going to jail. When I can, I will test it in that manner.

[Vince@ V K Motorwerks]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

Vince, you know I have no issues with you at all. I have supported you and will continue to.

You and I know the dyno is not going to show much. That is more of a test of the fan than anything else. If the IC is producing consistent AITs, then you know it will produce consistent power. If you are looking at HP/TQ numbers, then you must infer that it is the IC when it could be less agressive AIT boost decay in the tune, more boost, etc. You cannot seperate the factors. However if you focus on the AIT temps, then you know exactly what can be attributed to the IC.

All I hoped is that we could get testing of all the available ICs under similar tests, so we could post up a Sticky and know what is the best choice. That is all. I will leave you guys alone now.

I thank you for your support, we have had some great dialog and look forward to further discussions with you. I support what you are talking about with the IATs however, what you are trying to test and what JP is testing are two different things. That is why the two of you are bumping heads a bit. The funny thing is both of you are right but are testing different things.

[Ironring Racing]

Vince is right; you're both talking about different things.

Boosted: You're talking about running the same map and switching FMIC's, and you're right, the HP will be the same on the first few runs. With the same map, an FMIC will reduce engine temps and allow you to run at that same HP longer before the ECU reduces power due to high temps. Call this the "Track" application.

JP: You're talking about an upgraded FMIC reducing the pressure drop and IAT's, reducing the load on the turbos, which in turn allows you run a higher HP map. You're looking for max HP and you're right, with an upgraded FMIC you can run a map that allows for a higher peak boost/HP because of the lower pressure drop/IAT's. Call this the "Drag" application.

If JP increases boost, he may run into heat soak just as quick as the stock car would on a track, but he's correct, with the different map he'll be making more HP until that point. Or he could run the normal map all day without hitting a high temp induced limp.

Personally I'd run the higher HP map around town/drag, where heat soak isn't an issue, and a lower boost map for track days, adjusting based on where you see the engine temps rising to during the sessions.

Just my thoughts.

Ironring

[jpsimon]

Exactly, I'm on the street 99.999% of the time so potential track limp modes don't bother me.

[Juicer]

Originally Posted by ontopofm

I just looked at a friend's 335 with stock IC and mine. The stock IC sits higher and exposes more than the the VK and therefore more clearance to the air. Bottom half of the VK is covered by the bumper

That doesn't sound good. How's it going to cool more if it is exposed to less air?

[ontopofm]

Originally Posted by Juicer

That doesn't sound good. How's it going to cool more if it is exposed to less air?

I just looked over the Spearco and RD Sport IC installed threads and found that they're sitting at the same height and covered as much
1st and 2nd pics are RD Sport, 3rd pic is Spearco

[vbmw335]

I found the same in my research...you beat me to it by posting pics. The bottomline is the stock bumper allows to flow only like 6 rows of any intercooler. So maybe the air just flows around and gets in...

Either way...if you feel the car is faster and numbers prove that then...that's all that matters.

The same questions were asked in the code 3 install thread too...

[Juicer]

Originally Posted by ontopofm

I just looked over the Spearco and RD Sport IC installed threads and found that they're sitting at the same high and covered as much
1st and 2nd pics are RD Sport, 3rd pic is Spearco

Yeah I agree. I didn't notice this so much when I installed the code3 on my 135i, I guess because I had to cut all the plastic off in front of the fmic. I guess it's able to cool ok even without direct airflow.

[vbmw335]

Originally Posted by Juicer

Yeah I agree. I didn't notice this so much when I installed the code3 on my 135i, I guess because I had to cut all the plastic off in front of the fmic. I guess it's able to cool ok even without direct airflow.

Maybe someone needs to make a custom bumper...to allow cooling more surface area..

[Septro]

I wish we had the same kind of pics showing the MTech bumper and FMICs so that we can see if the lower grill allows for more exposure of the intercooler compared to stock.

Then again the difference may be negligible but we should know shortly with all the testing going on.

[Juicer]

Originally Posted by vbmw335

Maybe someone needs to make a custom bumper...to allow cooling more surface area..

I have a 135i (comes with the "M" bumber), but i just looked at my FMIC throught the lower grill and the bottom of my code3 FMIC appears to be getting direct flow. Keep in mind all of the plastic in front was cut away. The bumper is about 1/2 an inch higher than the bottom of the FMIC, but it is so close that I think it's still getting good flow. Not sure if this is true with the 335i, but someone should check it out.

[Proper Motion LLC]

I know we get caught up with IATs when talking intercoolers. Why isn't improving flow not a priority and why are flow bench test never shown?

[ontopofm]

Originally Posted by Juicer

I have a 135i (comes with the "M" bumber), but i just looked at my FMIC throught the lower grill and the bottom of my code3 FMIC appears to be getting direct flow. Keep in mind all of the plastic in front was cut away. The bumper is about 1/2 an inch higher than the bottom of the FMIC, but it is so close that I think it's still getting good flow. Not sure if this is true with the 335i, but someone should check it out.

can you post a pic please?