[Ramos]

I think you should start with the upgraded oil cooler and then consider BMW tune / upgraded radiator if VK comes up with one...

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by The HACK

would only need brake pads and MAYBE tires to have some fun at the track ..... Subaru WRX

off topic1: +1 stock WRX comes with air to water oil cooler and supposedly a massively overengineered cooling system. it is indeed a lot of fun on track with only tires and track compound pads. unfortunately it is 328i slow when stock.

Originally Posted by boilerdan33

My goal was to get on the bigger tracks, Road America, Autobahn, Gingerman, Mid-Ohio, etc,

PM me when you go. I am moving to Chicago in August and need to make some friends.

[longodj]

Originally Posted by scollins

Longodj doesn't have the same car as you, since his is a 6MT while yours is an Auto. The manual transmission doesn't run cooling lines through the core like the AT does. Your AT will tax the cooling system more than a 6MT will.

Again, very likely to need an upgraded oil cooler too. And, the gauge on the dash measures oil temp, not coolant temp.

I may not have the same tranny, but this engine overheats the oil no matter what tranny you have. And the radiator Vince is working on is supposed to be a tranny cooler as well...or have some kind of tranny cooling option for AT.

[longodj]

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

off topic1: +1 stock WRX comes with air to water oil cooler and supposedly a massively overengineered cooling system. it is indeed a lot of fun on track with only tires and track compound pads. unfortunately it is 328i slow when stock.



PM me when you go. I am moving to Chicago in August and need to make some friends.

Nick, any interest in doing the Mid-Ohio school? I was seriously considering this at one point and as soon as I am out of complete and utter financial shit I am still pretty interested in the idea. Competition licensing in a prepped Acura sounds pretty nice to me.

[scollins]

Originally Posted by longodj

I may not have the same tranny, but this engine overheats the oil no matter what tranny you have. And the radiator Vince is working on is supposed to be a tranny cooler as well...or have some kind of tranny cooling option for AT.

Ok, I know I'm getting argumentative here now, which should be my first clue to STFU, but here goes. What evidence do you have to support that these engines overheat the oil? Just because the gauge reads 300 degrees for a period of time on a track? What does that do to your engine oil? Have you had it tested? Synthetic oil is capable of higher temps than dino oil.

I've had my oil tested after every oil change, it has always come back with plenty of service life left to give. Admittedly, I'm doing 5000 change intervals. I just had the oil changed after the last track day, which was a 3500 mile interval (free annual service), so I'll be curious to see how the results come back. But no matter how hard I've pushed the car, I've never seen temps higher than 260. Never. All I've got is the factory cooler.

Some N54's seem to run hotter than others. 6MT vs Step vs. OC vs. non-OC vs. tune vs. no-tune doesn't seem to have any specific correlation. Some run the oil hotter than others. At my last track session, I never saw temps over 260. Yes, it was my first time, running in Novice group (D), so I wasn't pushing the car as hard. But there were 3 other 335i's there, running in C and B groups, and none of them noticed temps above 275.

My main point was, and still is, don't just assume that high oil temps caused limp mode. Find the specific problem and solve it, then move on to the next one. If it winds up being oil temps, then fine, that's great. But there is no sense in throwing money at a solution that may or may not work before really understanding the car. Even leftcoastman has posts saying he hasn't seen 300 degree temps except when ambients are 95+. I'm sure he drives the snot out of the car too.

In the end, it isn't my car, it really even isn't my problem. I'm just trying to save an internet friend the potential of spending thousands of dollars fixing the wrong problem. Potential being the key word, as an upgraded oil cooler may indeed be the right fix for him.

But just like every bit of advice handed down form the heavy trackers, don't try to fix something until you are sure it is broken (suspension, brakes, sways, LSD, tune, etc. etc.)

[longodj]

scollins: That was poor word choice on my part. I meant that these engines heat up oil...to the point of pissing the computer off? I know that the oil caused my limp modes because I could watch the temp get to a certain point and if I lifted off I'd be fine and if I pushed I'd limp. I tested this over about 6 track days before opting for the BMW cooler and then another 3 before opting for the VK cooler. Now I'm sure it was the oil because in similar circumstances but with my oil at 235 I see no limp. Granted I'm stock besides a DCI enginewise, but I think that's pretty definitive evidence that a cooler is damn near necessary to avoid limps on track (yes, with CERTAIN cars that heat the oil to the dangerous 300+ range).

Yes, my first track day, my car didn't limp, oil temps got to only about 275. Second, 285. Third, limp. So hell, maybe I'm pushing the car too hard, maybe I should be short shifting. My instructors didn't seem to think so and most of them laughed at the car limping like that. All I know is that when beating the living snot out of the car, it used to get pissed and throw an oil tantrum, now it doesn't.

With all that being said...

Originally Posted by scollins

Ok, I know I'm getting argumentative here now, which should be my first clue to STFU, but here goes. What evidence do you have to support that these engines overheat the oil? Just because the gauge reads 300 degrees for a period of time on a track? What does that do to your engine oil? Have you had it tested? Synthetic oil is capable of higher temps than dino oil.

I've had my oil tested after every oil change, it has always come back with plenty of service life left to give. Admittedly, I'm doing 5000 change intervals. I just had the oil changed after the last track day, which was a 3500 mile interval (free annual service), so I'll be curious to see how the results come back. But no matter how hard I've pushed the car, I've never seen temps higher than 260. Never. All I've got is the factory cooler.

Some N54's seem to run hotter than others. 6MT vs Step vs. OC vs. non-OC vs. tune vs. no-tune doesn't seem to have any specific correlation. Some run the oil hotter than others. At my last track session, I never saw temps over 260. Yes, it was my first time, running in Novice group (D), so I wasn't pushing the car as hard. But there were 3 other 335i's there, running in C and B groups, and none of them noticed temps above 275.

My main point was, and still is, don't just assume that high oil temps caused limp mode. Find the specific problem and solve it, then move on to the next one. If it winds up being oil temps, then fine, that's great. But there is no sense in throwing money at a solution that may or may not work before really understanding the car. Even leftcoastman has posts saying he hasn't seen 300 degree temps except when ambients are 95+. I'm sure he drives the snot out of the car too.

In the end, it isn't my car, it really even isn't my problem. I'm just trying to save an internet friend the potential of spending thousands of dollars fixing the wrong problem. Potential being the key word, as an upgraded oil cooler may indeed be the right fix for him.

But just like every bit of advice handed down form the heavy trackers, don't try to fix something until you are sure it is broken (suspension, brakes, sways, LSD, tune, etc. etc.)

[scollins]

Originally Posted by longodj

All I know is that when beating the living snot out of the car, it used to get pissed and throw an oil tantrum, now it doesn't.

With all that being said...

Oil tantrum, now that is funny shit!

I think we are all good, we want the same thing: cars that run on the track properly so we can focus on skills and not "goddamnit, what is wrong NOW?!"

Maybe I got lucky and got one that has a cool head and doesn't throw oil tantrums. Just like my 6 year old has a much different personality than my 3 year old....

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by longodj

Nick, any interest in doing the Mid-Ohio school? I was seriously considering this at one point and as soon as I am out of complete and utter financial shit I am still pretty interested in the idea. Competition licensing in a prepped Acura sounds pretty nice to me.

The dates don't work for me unfortunately. I'm not going to be in that area until late Aug. I also just got my tuition bill I think I may have to take that $470 entry fee and use it to buy ramen noodles

[longodj]

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

The dates don't work for me unfortunately. I'm not going to be in that area until late Aug. I also just got my tuition bill I think I may have to take that $470 entry fee and use it to buy ramen noodles

Haha same here on the tuition rant...maybe next year.

[jahwerx]

I did 4 we's last year and my mods were:
1. upgraded front Brakes - properly modulated, consistent braking is a joy (Alcon)
2. wheels/tires - unstaggered - (this will help the understeer problems) My car pushes a little, but overall I'd place it in the "neutral" category. (dforce+R888)

I have an engine tune, but put it on its lowest power setting... since its already been discussed: Getting power down is the key:
LEAVE STABILITY CONTROL OFF AND TRACTION CONTROL ON <= This really worked the best for me (I have no LSD). Stability is just pure frustration that hampers the ability to control the car. Traction control helps prevent the 1-wheel burnout - especially with so much torque getting put down. I echo the above - don't mess w/ the engine for the track

If you know you want to do it the entire year - buy DE insurance - I think its between 5-10% of the car for an entire year. I think you can also purchase for a single event. Nasa just inked a deal with some company for discounts.

Clearly address the overheating issue first- (I've never overheated with the factory oil cooler and 6-sp)

With all that said, I doubt I'll track it any more - too fast and not safe enough - I could make it safer, but at the expense of its primary purpose: daily driver. I did it to my last car and am not going to repeat that mistake.

Cheers,
Josh

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

off topic1: +1 stock WRX comes with air to water oil cooler and supposedly a massively overengineered cooling system. it is indeed a lot of fun on track with only tires and track compound pads. unfortunately it is 328i slow when stock.

Consider thread hijacked...

1. I assume you mean previous generation WRX or '08 WRXes, because the '09s have 265hp and weigh only 3,100 lbs. 0-60 reported to be in the 4.9 second range. Stock. It's about as fast (in a straight line) as a 335i. Reported 1/4 mile traps at mid 13s and 105-ish mph.

2. I've NEVER seen a stock WRX. Even my '09, when I picked it up BRAND NEW, had a short shift kit in it. By day 3 I already had it up on the rack swapping out various bushings. By week 3 I already have a cat-back exhaust on order and a Stage I tune from Cobb installed. That's the thing about these WRXes...Parts are so widely available and the tuners have had DECADES of experience with the software, and at $24,000 out the door, it doesn't take much money to make them balls fast.

As for the brakes, I think it's going to need more than just track compound. The rotors are unbelievably small, unless Subaru has figured out a way to have some magical material to build them from, the solid (not vented!) rear rotors will be big problems come track day. The shocks are a little under-damped but that I can learn to drive around.

[The HACK]

Back on topic...

I've posted this before, and I'll post it again. Here's what triggers limp mode:



Notice "Component Protection" and "clear reduction" in power output starts at 151 degrees Celsius? That's 305 degrees Fahrenheit.



Here's the other half of the equation that causes limp mode. Water temp. 118 degrees Celsius triggers power reduction, which is 245 degrees Fahrenheit.

We had some opportunities to put an instructor's car into diagnostic mode where coolant temperature was displayed, and it turns out on that weekend at California Speedway (yes, back then it was still called California Speedway) the three instances where the car went into limp mode, it was triggered by water temp, not oil temp. HOWEVER, on several other occasions we've got data that OIL TEMP also triggers limp.

Here-in lies the problem. On the N54, there's a water/oil heat exchanger, so both fluid share the load in cooling down the "system." Since it is far more difficult to modify the cooling system, it's not a bad idea to upgrade the oil cooling system since higher oil cooling capacity also means a lower coolant temperature when pushed. I would, in addition to upgrading the oil cooling, swap out the coolant with 100% distilled water AND a dab of Redline Water Wetter to improve the cooling capacity, since BOTH coolant and oil temp will trigger limp mode.

On a slight tangent, I've read somewhere (I wish I can find it again) that for oil temperatures above 240, every 10 degrees increase effectively HALVES the operating life of the component it's trying to protect. So while running high oil temps occasionally on the track isn't going to kill anything, it is still best to keep the oil between 180-240 degrees Fahrenheit as much as possible. Another side benefit of having an aux. oil cooler capable of keeping your lubricant below that magic number.

[DrDomer]

Since we're threadjacking... For OP (and others)... I've used MVP Track Time to do a couple events at Autobahn in Joliet, IL. They run a very tight ship. Link below.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190182

That track is pretty cool when you get to do the full track. I've had both the 335i and my Miata on the full track. You don't need a high HP car to be on a "big" track. Hell, there was an instructor (who's car was unavailable) in a rented Kia Spectra running in the ADVANCED group... I have pictures and video of him between two race-prepped Vipers.

So, HP is waaaaaay less important than people think. I think it actually slows your progression as a good driver. I could pass almost anyone in the novice group in my 335i, but honestly my driving was shit. I've gotten MUCH better (but still crappy) in my (probably now) 120HP Miata, and can sometimes actually pass newer and higher HP vehicles.

I can understand not having the room for 3 cars. So if it's not an option, and you have the 335i, listen to the other guys who have gone past my point in evaluating and fixing causes of heat induced limp. The fixes aren't cheap, and don't make the car perform better (well... maybe allow full "performance" for more than 2 laps), but at least it's driveable. Just be aware that any non-BMW part will probably increase the chance that they'll deny warranty claims. Also, you may want to find a different option than the Bridgestone runflats for tires. You will chew those up very quickly, and they're damned expensive.

Good luck!

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by scollins

At my last track session, I never saw temps over 260. Yes, it was my first time, running in Novice group (D), so I wasn't pushing the car as hard.

No offence to you, but the reason your temps never went above 260 is because you are a novice not pushing the car hard enough.

Originally Posted by scollins

My main point was, and still is, don't just assume that high oil temps caused limp mode. Find the specific problem and solve it

Again, no offence... stop arguing.. The primary problem is oil cooling, the secondary problem is coolant... Read the Hack post below..

Originally Posted by The HACK

Here-in lies the problem. On the N54, there's a water/oil heat exchanger, so both fluid share the load in cooling down the "system." Since it is far more difficult to modify the cooling system, it's not a bad idea to upgrade the oil cooling system since higher oil cooling capacity also means a lower coolant temperature when pushed. I would, in addition to upgrading the oil cooling, swap out the coolant with 100% distilled water AND a dab of Redline Water Wetter to improve the cooling capacity, since BOTH coolant and oil temp will trigger limp mode.

Good respsonse.. thank you

[longodj]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Back on topic...

I've posted this before, and I'll post it again. Here's what triggers limp mode:



Notice "Component Protection" and "clear reduction" in power output starts at 151 degrees Celsius? That's 305 degrees Fahrenheit.



Here's the other half of the equation that causes limp mode. Water temp. 118 degrees Celsius triggers power reduction, which is 245 degrees Fahrenheit.

We had some opportunities to put an instructor's car into diagnostic mode where coolant temperature was displayed, and it turns out on that weekend at California Speedway (yes, back then it was still called California Speedway) the three instances where the car went into limp mode, it was triggered by water temp, not oil temp. HOWEVER, on several other occasions we've got data that OIL TEMP also triggers limp.

Here-in lies the problem. On the N54, there's a water/oil heat exchanger, so both fluid share the load in cooling down the "system." Since it is far more difficult to modify the cooling system, it's not a bad idea to upgrade the oil cooling system since higher oil cooling capacity also means a lower coolant temperature when pushed. I would, in addition to upgrading the oil cooling, swap out the coolant with 100% distilled water AND a dab of Redline Water Wetter to improve the cooling capacity, since BOTH coolant and oil temp will trigger limp mode.

On a slight tangent, I've read somewhere (I wish I can find it again) that for oil temperatures above 240, every 10 degrees increase effectively HALVES the operating life of the component it's trying to protect. So while running high oil temps occasionally on the track isn't going to kill anything, it is still best to keep the oil between 180-240 degrees Fahrenheit as much as possible. Another side benefit of having an aux. oil cooler capable of keeping your lubricant below that magic number.

Great post.

[yotsuna]

Originally Posted by Ramos

No offence to you, but the reason your temps never went above 260 is because you are a novice not pushing the car hard enough.



Again, no offence... stop arguing.. The primary problem is oil cooling, the secondary problem is coolant... Read the Hack post below..





Good respsonse.. thank you

Actually, based on the post you quote it sounds like the primary problem is that the coolant system has the double duty of cooling oil / water... so improvements to one system should benefit both and problems with either system will both contribute.

Furthermore, someone just posted that coolant temp can cause limp mode as well... granted oil is easier to test in real-time by pushing the 304 marker.

I get that it's easier / more logical to mod the oil cooling system, but does it really warrant the whole not-trying-to-be-an-a55hole-but-watch-me-be-an-a55hole response? That's what the Porsche community is for - we're supposed to be the nice guys!

It's not like he gave bad/dangerous/illogical advice...

Maybe I'm just reading into the whole thread too much... I am a bit tired/grumpy from being a willow springs all weekend in 105 degree heat

[chaz58]

To the OP:

Define what you want. You likely won't know this until you have done several events. A stock 328 (with sports package) does pretty well out of the box. Its a little more tricky with the 335 heat issues.

- Tires: Spend $500 and get a spare set of used wheels and summer tires off of craigs list. It is a lot more fun and easy to learn on some (relatively) inexpensive tires. Great tires mask your problems and will hinder your learning curve.

That is really all you should be doing until you are moved up into the advanced run group (assuming you get your heat issues taken care of). Before that point, you are the car's weakest link - after that point you should know what your car needs.

- Brakes: For me, one of the secrets to being the fastest on the track is to be better at braking than everyone else. You need racing brake pads to do this. If you are bleading your own brakes, swapping pads shouldn't be that big of a deal. This really isn't going to be an issue until you are running in the advanced group though.

start with that, the rest will come with time...

On the DST and LSD thing: pushing the DST button is a good idea for starters. I find it still gets confused when I pick up the inside front wheel, and really doesn't like it if a tire leaves the ground. With the '08.5+ cars the e-diff (pseudo LSD) is on all of the time, so wheelspin isnt a problem for me.

P.S. Hey, that car below looks exactly like my track rat. Well my car sits slightly lower and is about 2 years older. Great track car though.

Originally Posted by S4to335

I got an older one...but about the same result:

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by chaz58

With the '08.5+ cars the e-diff (pseudo LSD) is on all of the time, so wheelspin isnt a problem for me.

what build date are you referring to? electronics full off in my car really does mean fully off with 1 wheel peelouts being allowed

[Bubbles]

Tires and wheels to beat up on.

Brake pad/fluid swap.

Oil Cooler.

[chaz58]

Build date is March '08 and later.

There is a BIG difference in wheelspin before and after this build date (with DST turned down or off).

My car, built in June, does a fair impression of an LSD. The cars I drove prior to march '08 build spin like crazy with DST turned down/off.

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

what build date are you referring to? electronics full off in my car really does mean fully off with 1 wheel peelouts being allowed

[chaz58]

No we don't.

I did do that in the past (rent tracks for the Miata club) but they were "safer" tracks and still I don't like having track days for cars without rollbars. I forced people to go slow in the dangerous sections, but still - if you want to play on a track with an open car, you need a 4 point roll bar.

Originally Posted by boilerdan33

My goal was to get on the bigger tracks, Road America, Autobahn, Gingerman, Mid-Ohio, etc, and as far as I know, there are no Miata Clubs that do that.

Dan

[DrDomer]

Apprently white miatas are what all the cool kids have. That looks like mine also, except I have a white roof and its a NB ('99).