[visor]

Originally Posted by whippersnapper

If I was the computer and the car was understeering and the driver responds by braking I'd think, hey this dude needs some serious help

It's normal and advantageous to brake a little during an understeer, in order to slow down further for the corner. This is true for both RWD, FWD, or AWD.

It is during an OVERSTEER that you don't want to brake, otherwise you'll unload the rear further and swing it around even further. In an oversteer is when the driver has to fight the natural instinct to brake and needs to counter-steer to straighten out the rear.

[heezyo2o]

Originally Posted by ScheerSpeed

i have driven audi a4's and g35's, and their traction control is much more "allowing" than that of BMW's.

The G35 VDC is much more limiting when compared to the DSC of BMW. VDC is really overzealous with the brakes and engine power while DSC comes on a bit more gradual in my mind. With DSC limited and DTC on, you should have even more freedom so to speak.

[krafty04]

Originally Posted by SPACEMANRICK

Thank god this guy doesn't own a 4 wheel drive truck, because he would be the guy flying past you in the snow storm and ending up in a ditch 1/2 mile down the road

Nope, that would be me.....

[ScheerSpeed]

it was a big on-ramp, the mph limit was 40. and i know what im doing, im not some kid who doesnt know how to slide a car. ive done skip barber racing schools, etc. and ive been racing cars for 6 years now (look at my sig). ive driven races at the california speedway oval in the rain, at 160mph. i know how to drive a car in the rain. i braked because i wanted to make the car slide (oversteer). i hate understeer.

[Robin_NL]

You can shut DSC/DTC off you know

Yeah quattro is so safe LOL

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by ScheerSpeed

... but i prefer to drive without ANY computer interaction with how i drive.

It's only going to get worse. In the near future, ALL vehicles will be required to have some sort of traction control. IMO all BMW's w/sport pkg are setup to understeer, you could play with the tire pressure and see if you can dial some of that out.

[Carnage]

Originally Posted by ScheerSpeed

it was a big on-ramp, the mph limit was 40. and i know what im doing, im not some kid who doesnt know how to slide a car. ive done skip barber racing schools, etc. and ive been racing cars for 6 years now (look at my sig). ive driven races at the california speedway oval in the rain, at 160mph. i know how to drive a car in the rain. i braked because i wanted to make the car slide (oversteer). i hate understeer.

That's great and all but that's part of the problem. The roads used by the general public are not the track. If you want to slide around and act a fool save it for there.

[JSpira]

Originally Posted by ScheerSpeed

it was a big on-ramp, the mph limit was 40. and i know what im doing, im not some kid who doesnt know how to slide a car. ive done skip barber racing schools, etc. and ive been racing cars for 6 years now (look at my sig). ive driven races at the california speedway oval in the rain, at 160mph. i know how to drive a car in the rain. i braked because i wanted to make the car slide (oversteer). i hate understeer.

Sorry but clearly you are some kid who doesn´t know WHEN it´s appropriate TO slide the car.

One of the things Skip´s schools teach is to know where and when to do what. I´ve done the schools also.

[Ghunger]

I guess I don't quite understand, you were accelerating on an onramp, on throttle, and when you started to understeer you hit the brakes. Did you left foot brake to slow yourself a bit then while staying on the throttle? Otherwise, you probably should have just lifted off the gas gently to not upset the car and regain traction.
Then later in the post you say you were trying to drift. So why in the heck did you have the DTC on if you were trying to drift? Either you f'd up and are trying to cover it up by blaming DTC or don't understand what DTC is supposed to do.

You should take your car to an autocross and run laps with DSC, DTC then both off several times. It's very interesting seeing how it reacts.

[Mr. BMW]

Originally Posted by bavarian19

How about the problem is not with the car... its the driver.


Take it easy when driving conditions are less than perfect.

+1

You probably would have hit the gardrail if you you didn't have DTC.

I was in a pretty bad situation a few years ago with my X5. I was coming down a hill on some ice and hit the brakes. The car went sideways and I was fighting like crazy to try and recover it. At the very last minute just as I was about to hit a parked car, the DSC kicked in and put me back in a straight line. Had it not been for the DSC, I would have taken out the whole driver’s side of my car.

[shimshimhada]

I take offramps in the snow at 100mph.

I'm sure you know how to handle your car WITHOUT traction control on, but you should get to know your car with it on as well.

[stressdoc]

Originally Posted by JSpira

A driver has to learn how his car reacts in different circumstances so it would be wise to get to know the car on a nice wet skidpad and see where the DTC kicks in and what else the car does to compensate.

That way you will be more prepared and you will learn more about controlling the car.

+1. Find a safe place to explore the limits.

[ScheerSpeed]

no. i was not trying to drift the corner. all that i was trying to say in this post was that i would not have gotten into a dangerous situation if there would have been no traction control on. i know the limits of my car, and thats why i was able to manage the corner safely until the DTC kicked on. i know i can turn it off, i had just forgotten.

[PMP]

Originally Posted by ScheerSpeed

it was a big on-ramp, the mph limit was 40. and i know what im doing, im not some kid who doesnt know how to slide a car. ive done skip barber racing schools, etc. and ive been racing cars for 6 years now (look at my sig). ive driven races at the california speedway oval in the rain, at 160mph. i know how to drive a car in the rain. i braked because i wanted to make the car slide (oversteer). i hate understeer.

I'm sure you are a good, maybe even really good, driver but I think you made a mistake when you used your brakes to counter the understeer in those conditions. Usually when you are in a puddle you are better off just letting off the gas. If you are going too fast for that to work ... well, you are just going too fast for the conditions.

We all screw up, but I think your DTC actually saved your car because you could have easily reversed the understeer into an oversteer situation and gone 180 into the guardrail. I did the exact same thing on an offramp in my C32 once and had the same wild ride you described. My neighbor, who races Porsches, said what I just said and then took me for a ride in his Boxter S on the same offramp to demonstrate what I did wrong. Same result (but, better car and easy recovery for him). Interestingly, it scared the crap out of me the second time around, as well.

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by ScheerSpeed

ii braked because i wanted to make the car slide (oversteer).

There enlies your problem.

[Driv3r]

You obviously dont know what the basics of performance driving are....
When in an understeer situation, it is sometimes best to slightly brake to have a little more load on the front suspension so as to raise the contact patch on the front tires.


And i love how all these people know better than anyone no matter what...would you guys listen to a surgeon to explain to you an operation? or someone who has read up about the operation?

[Bimmerista]

It sounds to me like an experienced driver got into a situation and took action (tap brakes) expecting the car to behave a certain way. When that didn't happen bcs driver forgot to disable DTC, an unexpected event occured which caused great confusion given that driver was not counting on the car's behaviour to be what it ended up being as a result of the DTC intervention.

It also sounds like he basically got himself out of that situation with a bit of luck.

DTC does not "suck", the problem here was simple human error (forgot to disable DTC but drove the car assuming that he had). I am sure that if he knew his DTC was on his intial reaction would have been different.

Infinity has lousy stability control which cannot be turned off.

Audi's is pretty good (same idea as BMW, can give driver control), but the problem with Audi's is nose heavy behavior.

[Ghunger]

Originally Posted by Driv3r

You obviously dont know what the basics of performance driving are....
When in an understeer situation, it is sometimes best to slightly brake to have a little more load on the front suspension so as to raise the contact patch on the front tires.


And i love how all these people know better than anyone no matter what...would you guys listen to a surgeon to explain to you an operation? or someone who has read up about the operation?

I shouldn't have tried to second guess his technique. The bottom line is, you need to learn to drive the car with traction control, if you're going to use it. You can't correct the same way you would on a car that does have it as you would on a car without it. Hense my last suggestion to go to an autocross and drive it in all 3 modes. The other option being, just disable it completely every time and not rely on the computer at all.

As a side note, I have done some autocrosses with DSC on and have found it very subtle when it reduces the throttle when the car detects on throttle understeer. It was enough to slow the car and regain traction but didn't upset the balance. I was impressed. DTC on the other hand was much less intrusive. I rarely even noticed it, especially compared to the DSC. The only times I really noticed it were when I was accelerating out of a turn too fast and it was keeping my wheels from spinning, think electronic LSD.

[ScheerSpeed]

the thing is, oversteer (my personal preference) is better than understeer. im just not a fan of computers interacting with my driving, thats all. but i understand that for more unexperienced drivers the DTC can save lives (and cars). im just giving my personal opinion on the matter.

[e30klassic]

Dude, all you need is ease off on the gas not the brake & DTC will take over the job........Try this on a wet empty parking lot, it works.

[PMP]

Originally Posted by Driv3r

You obviously dont know what the basics of performance driving are....
When in an understeer situation, it is sometimes best to slightly brake to have a little more load on the front suspension so as to raise the contact patch on the front tires.


And i love how all these people know better than anyone no matter what...would you guys listen to a surgeon to explain to you an operation? or someone who has read up about the operation?

I think you misunderstood what I was writing (assuming you were responding to me). My point was that the technique you describe can be counterproductive if there is standing water and your front end is hydroplaning. If you manage to stop the rear end you can end up with all four wheels losing traction and a 180. That is why I suggested lifting the throttle (which I presume the DTC probably already did).

I'm not saying I'm necessarily correct, but that is what I was taught. We get a lot of heavy rains in Florida and you learn to be really gentle with the rear end with a RWD car when there is a lot of standing water.

Sometimes carrying too much speed into a corner when it is wet just results in big problems no matter what you do but that instinct to brake and turn the car when it understeers often results in a spin especially on a turn where there is a lot of built up rubber and oil from traffic.

Take it for what it's worth (free = nothing, right!).

[ScheerSpeed]

it was a small puddle, i had already passed it, i was only hydroplaning for like 1 millisecond, that is what induced the understeer.