[hotrod182]

Here are my 3 quickest runs in the M3,
right in line with the magazine test numbers.
By superimposing the runs on the graph, you can see how very close they are...

[aerisolphaln]

Fantastic post, detailed information, and graphics.

It is so hard to wait for my G35 lease to come up.

[musc]

Great info, thanks for posting.

I have the same older G-tech timer as sflgator. It is not quite as sophisticated as the newer models, but still gives you the basic info. I did some runs with my completely stock (aside from SE drop in filter) 04 E46 M3 coupe SMG. The times were actually right on par with whats posted here.

13.44 @ 106.2
0-60 4.88

Temp was about 55 F, clear, but humid. Probably within 150 ft of sea level. I had some other tractionless runs, but the MPH didnt go below 104.7.

Just thought I'd throw these numbers into the mix. It's safe to say that in a straight line, the E46 M3 and 335i are even...more or less a drivers race. 335i+Xede... the result would be painfully obvious. The potential performance of the 335i with minimal investment just amazes me.

[hotrod182]

Yup, it definitely is a drivers race. I mean, I think most M3s aren't suspecting a 335i is even going to race them. (Especially a 4 dr sedan!). So they probably aren't prepared. And if you catch them off guard and get a split second jump, then it would be nearly impossible from them to catch up. On the other hand, if an M3 gets a jump on you, it would be hard for you to catch up also. Also, as my car is fully broken in, I will time it again and post the results. Also, just as Vishnu has stated, the 335i at 6000 RPM really has the boost limited by the factory. It is so amazingly limited to be right in line with the M3 without actually beating it, you wonder what the factory was thinking???? Marketing purposes?? Makes you wonder. It also makes me wonder if in the near future, BMW will offer a performance package 335i, with simply more boost/horsepower? If they do, you will definitely know the horsepower was intentionally limited, makes sense given the gross underrating of the factory published HP figures on the 335i.

[max boost]

just got my new baby today






great post!

technical info always the bomb


BTW ILL RESIZE

[musc]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

Yup, it definitely is a drivers race. I mean, I think most M3s aren't suspecting a 335i is even going to race them. (Especially a 4 dr sedan!). So they probably aren't prepared. And if you catch them off guard and get a split second jump, then it would be nearly impossible from them to catch up. On the other hand, if an M3 gets a jump on you, it would be hard for you to catch up also. Also, as my car is fully broken in, I will time it again and post the results. Also, just as Vishnu has stated, the 335i at 6000 RPM really has the boost limited by the factory. It is so amazingly limited to be right in line with the M3 without actually beating it, you wonder what the factory was thinking???? Marketing purposes?? Makes you wonder. It also makes me wonder if in the near future, BMW will offer a performance package 335i, with simply more boost/horsepower? If they do, you will definitely know the horsepower was intentionally limited, makes sense given the gross underrating of the factory published HP figures on the 335i.

I think without a doubt, BMW knew what they were doing when limiting and rating the 335i. The car has tremendous potential, but BMW has basically set it up to meet certain criteria. It wouldn't have looked good for the remaining E46 M3s if the 335i came out crushing it. Heck, it could potentially be breathing down the neck of the portly M5!

Maybe they will have something like a 'ZHP' package for the 335i in the future, with a higher rating, and some other performance goodies. Again, they would have to make sure it doesn't step on the toes of the new E90/92 M3.

I haven't read all of the posts by Shiv, but I wasn't aware that the boost was really limited by 6000 rpm. I am assuming the Xede overcomes this.

It's just really appealing to get a car from the factory with FI already in place. Makes it much easier to do some budget tuning yielding big gains. There are some promising E46 M3 turbo kits pushing 500rwhp on pump gas, and close to 700 on race...but, 1300 wouldnt even get it installed.

[hotrod182]

Nice color coupe! I was actually considering that exact car.
Probably in 08, I will either be getting the new M3, or if it seems overpriced/underperforming, then I will get a 335i coupe to replace my 06 M3.
And yes...the Xede plays on that boost mapping, and thats why there is so much horsepower gain in the upper RPM ranges. The stock graph of the 335i at higher RPMs is so flat, whereas the Vishnu upgrade has it gaining 50+ HP.

[musc]

Originally Posted by max boost

just got my new baby today


BTW ILL RESIZE

Beautiful 335i! If you want to store your C5 in my garage, I have room, haha.

[Driver72]

I think these "test" results bares out exactly what it's suppose too.
The 335i has a slight advantage below 60 mph (that's the higher torque rating of the 335i).
Then as speeds climb above 60 mph the M3 seems to pull ahead ever so slightly (that's the horsepower advantage of the M3).
I do realize that BMW probably underrated the 335i horsepower by a bit, but not by 33 hp. The 335i probably really has in the 315-320 range, still a bit shy of the M3 and hence the reason the M3 pulls just a tick harder up top.

However, the OP's 335i may not be fully broken in yet.
I'd be curious as too how many miles was on the OP's 335i when he did these runs. If it was less than 2K or so, there's a good chance if he does this test again when the 335i has 2K+ miles (preferably 4-5K miles) the 335i will have a larger lead from the get go and may very well hold that lead through the entire 1/4 mile run.
How did you break in the car too? As per the manual, mixed driving (per the manual with the occasional full throttle blast, or "drive it like you stole it" right from the get go?

[max boost]

Originally Posted by catm3

Beautiful 335i! If you want to store your C5 in my garage, I have room, haha.

THANKS!
man i cannot discribe how hard it pulls! pulled 06 gsxr1000 from a roll

i was just ripping around in the 335 and all i can say OMG!!! its simply bad azz! with another 90rwtq itll be insane! super nice balnce of power handling and ergo!!!

[e36jakeo]

Originally Posted by Driver72

I think these "test" results bares out exactly what it's suppose too.
The 335i has a slight advantage below 60 mph (that's the higher torque rating of the 335i).
Then as speeds climb above 60 mph the M3 seems to pull ahead ever so slightly (that's the horsepower advantage of the M3).
I do realize that BMW probably underrated the 335i horsepower by a bit, but not by 33 hp. The 335i probably really has in the 315-320 range, still a bit shy of the M3 and hence the reason the M3 pulls just a tick harder up top.

However, the OP's 335i may not be fully broken in yet.
I'd be curious as too how many miles was on the OP's 335i when he did these runs. If it was less than 2K or so, there's a good chance if he does this test again when the 335i has 2K+ miles (preferably 4-5K miles) the 335i will have a larger lead from the get go and may very well hold that lead through the entire 1/4 mile run.
How did you break in the car too? As per the manual, mixed driving (per the manual with the occasional full throttle blast, or "drive it like you stole it" right from the get go?

Don't forget the 335i sedan weighs 3600 lbs. vs. the M3's 3415 lbs (plus maybe a few lbs. for options), so the fact that the 335i and M3 were accelerating equally in 3rd gear makes me think the 335i has to have 325 - 330 HP to keep up with the 333 HP M3.

Also, check out the fact that a stock 335i BEATS the BMW 550i (360 HP V8). Car and Driver November 2006 tested the 335i Coupe (6-speed manual) and 550i (6 speed auto) in separate tests. Results were:

335i 550i

0-60 4.9 5.2
0-100 12.1 12.7
0-130 21.6 22.5
1/4 mile 13.6 @ 105 MPH 13.7 @ 104 MPH

Now consider that the 335i is listed at 300 HP/ 300 Lb/Ft torque, and the 550i is listed at 360/360. The 335i lb/HP is 11.86. The 550i lb/HP equates to 11.24. Based upon this the 550i should be FASTER than the 335i, since this equates to a 5.2% better HP/weight ratio (and similar gearing and torque), but the results gave the slight advantage to the 335i.

It is very cool you can now buy a comfortable, sporty and luxurious 335i for $40K and be able to not only outhandle but outaccerlerate thier $60K ubber-sedan 550i! Oh, and then for a little over a grand you can nearly keep up with the M5.

As Borat would say, Very Nice!

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by Driver72

I think these "test" results bares out exactly what it's suppose too.
The 335i has a slight advantage below 60 mph (that's the higher torque rating of the 335i).
Then as speeds climb above 60 mph the M3 seems to pull ahead ever so slightly (that's the horsepower advantage of the M3).
I do realize that BMW probably underrated the 335i horsepower by a bit, but not by 33 hp. The 335i probably really has in the 315-320 range, still a bit shy of the M3 and hence the reason the M3 pulls just a tick harder up top.

However, the OP's 335i may not be fully broken in yet.
I'd be curious as too how many miles was on the OP's 335i when he did these runs. If it was less than 2K or so, there's a good chance if he does this test again when the 335i has 2K+ miles (preferably 4-5K miles) the 335i will have a larger lead from the get go and may very well hold that lead through the entire 1/4 mile run.
How did you break in the car too? As per the manual, mixed driving (per the manual with the occasional full throttle blast, or "drive it like you stole it" right from the get go?

The 335i is still very green. 400 miles on it. I have always found it hard to refrain from the occassional high speed blasts. The first time I had my M3, a Evo pretty much tried chasing me all the way to Santa Barbara. I don't run it hard all the time, and try not to beat up on the chassis, driveline..I really do keep my cars in new looking condition. .But I have definitely always had one of the stronger running cars....and I probably drive more aggressively than most. I took my M3 to Buttonwillow, and used to autocross with my GN, coming through the finish cones drifting sideways! I have driven some cars in which are totally babied, and find they drive like they are all loaded up. I think the engine MAP does somewhat adapt to your driving style. I have heard the best thing to do is to constantly vary the load on the engine..(don't stay at the same speeds on cruise control!)....some say by driving it hard, the higher pressures on the piston rings help to seat them better....either way...with the new metallurgy, I don't think it is as critical as it used to be...and I believe BMW does give them a "run in" fairly extensively. Interestingly enough, the M3 had a sticker on the window...detailing the break in, below 100mph/no full throttle/etc.. up to 1200 miles....and I believe it said no sustained speeds over 130mph..until the car has 3000 miles on it.

So like I said, hopefully the 335i will turn in some better numbers when it gets some more mileage on it. But yes, as it stands right now..the M3 has the slight top end edge. The M3 0-100 is always below 12 seconds, and the 335i a little above it..just as the magazine test results reveal.

Also...one interesting observation....My average MPG on my M3 with 10000 miles of driving is 15MPG, the 335i so far is averaging 13.7MPG. Is this pretty typical? Or do I drive harder than most? I know on the fwy, at 72MPH, I can easily get the instantaneous to read 28+ MPG, but my average at 13.7MPG, is really no better than the M3 under the same conditions. When under boost, Im sure the 335i really dumps the fuel in. In fact, one of the factors in the Vishnu tune was to lean it out under certain conditions. Im sure the factory is just being overly conservative in controlling combustion temperatures by maintaining richer A/F ratios.

Also...as far as horsepower output, and power to weight ratios....you would think if the 335i can run with the M3...it has to be making more than 300HP. I mean..the 335i is heavier...is running through an automatic in my case...how could it have much less HP. Im figuring with all that...they have to be making within 10hp of each other. It seems the M3 runs a 1-2MPH faster in the Qtr..and that would equate to about 10HP-20HP IF the cars weighed the same...and both had clutches instead of the steptronic in the 335i. As an aside though, the M3 engine is remarkable in that it is only 3.2L, and can hang with turbo charged cars, and beat cars with much bigger displacment such as Mustang GTs, etc.

[OCNYBMW]

Great post hotrod182. I actually had a 99 C5, and I can tell you without the tests, that my 335i is MUCH faster. I even had a custom intake, and the car dyno'ed with 323rwhp. One time on the Garden State Pkwy, I had "raced" my C5 vs a M3, and I could not leave it. If we had a little more road, I think he would of passed me. We both took it up to around 140MPH that night.

Just on Wed evening, on I-80 East around Parsippany, a Black M3 passed me and I knew he wanted to "play" a little. I was behind him and made a little move and took my 335 to 130MPH, and with that little jump, he could not catch up to me. Once I slowed downed, we tried it again, and he did a little better, but I would definately say that my 335i was faster. I know that this is not scientific, but it was very apparent, that he tried almost everything to stay with me twice.

It really is amazing that a non-M BMW can make the M-guys sweat. In reality, they are both great cars, and deserve great repect!

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by OCNYBMW

Great post hotrod182. I actually had a 99 C5, and I can tell you without the tests, that my 335i is MUCH faster. I even had a custom intake, and the car dyno'ed with 323rwhp. One time on the Garden State Pkwy, I had "raced" my C5 vs a M3, and I could not leave it. If we had a little more road, I think he would of passed me. We both took it up to around 140MPH that night.

Just on Wed evening, on I-80 East around Parsippany, a Black M3 passed me and I knew he wanted to "play" a little. I was behind him and made a little move and took my 335 to 130MPH, and with that little jump, he could not catch up to me. Once I slowed downed, we tried it again, and he did a little better, but I would definately say that my 335i was faster. I know that this is not scientific, but it was very apparent, that he tried almost everything to stay with me twice.

It really is amazing that a non-M BMW can make the M-guys sweat. In reality, they are both great cars, and deserve great repect!

Nice... There is a guy that lives around the corner from me with a blue 01 C5...I was in driving my 06 M3 one time, and he came up next to me at this intersection and raced away. He then proceeded to cut in front of me to make a right turn (sucker punched me!)...well the next time, I saw him, I lined up at that same intersection and took off, for some reason when I was ready, he wouldn't go for it... Maybe if I were in my 335i instead of the M3, he would have tried...and it would have been immensely more satisfying beating him in my four door sedan!

[m3rxn]

as always..good post hotrod!

[max boost]

ran my fully loaded 335 w/beltronics and right off idle start (auto) i was able to manage 13.3 @ 104.9 i hot lapped it and was a smidget slower.

ive used this beltronics @ the track and pretty darn accurate.

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by max boost

ran my fully loaded 335 w/beltronics and right off idle start (auto) i was able to manage 13.3 @ 104.9 i hot lapped it and was a smidget slower.

ive used this beltronics @ the track and pretty darn accurate.

Then add the Xede, and I feel confident you'll get a similar time as I did; 1/4 mi. in ~ 12.3 sec., about a sec. or more off your stock 335i run!

[Jonn335]

great info, thanks for taking the time to do this and post it.

Its interesting looking at the diference in diff ratio between the auto and MT, why would they do this?
One thing i have noticed is that the ratios of the various gearboxes BMW use dont seem to be selected for the particular car the box is in, for example the 335i MT is the same ratios as the V8 5 and 6 series cars, you would think that the totally diferent cars would need a diferent ratio set. Perhaps they use the final drive ratio to fine tune the overall ratios to work well with the car, so they can use the same trans in lots of cars?

[kujo]

I also ran my 'green' e90 335 AT with my Gtech and Gtimer.
I only have 113 miles on her and I'm from the 'Drive it like you stole it' camp.
No 'easy' break in here. Ride her hard, from the get go.
It's worked best for me in the past with other Turbo cars and NA cars.
Anyway........

I ran a few runs in the low to mid 4.8s
And, on one run, the launch felt just perfect and it hammerd out a 4.70 on the GTech PRO.
DTC/DSC off, 1,500 rpm launch and almost no wheel spin.
shifted her at 6,100 as she's already losing torque at that point and that was it. Of course we all take it for what it's worth with the GTechs.

But, by next weekend, I'll have a GPS Vbox unit to play with.
Those numbers should be everybit as accurate as you can get.
I'm also at 1,500' elevation.

Bottom line.... this is one hell of a car and with some minor modding, it's going to embarass some unsuspecting 'car guys'...... ;-)

kj

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by kujo

I also ran my 'green' e90 335 AT with my Gtech and Gtimer.
I only have 113 miles on her and I'm from the 'Drive it like you stole it' camp.
No 'easy' break in here. Ride her hard, from the get go.
It's worked best for me in the past with other Turbo cars and NA cars.
Anyway........

I ran a few runs in the low to mid 4.8s
And, on one run, the launch felt just perfect and it hammerd out a 4.70 on the GTech PRO.
DTC/DSC off, 1,500 rpm launch and almost no wheel spin.
shifted her at 6,100 as she's already losing torque at that point and that was it. Of course we all take it for what it's worth with the GTechs.

But, by next weekend, I'll have a GPS Vbox unit to play with.
Those numbers should be everybit as accurate as you can get.
I'm also at 1,500' elevation.

Bottom line.... this is one hell of a car and with some minor modding, it's going to embarass some unsuspecting 'car guys'...... ;-)

kj

So did you run the qtr mile? Well at least you can see how close our Gtech results are between us....my times were 4.785-4.893 seconds. Thats pretty darn consistant. Let us know how the VBOX results pan out..in the C&D test the Vbox was within .05 sec of the timing lights and .25mph, compared to .10 sec, .50mph for the GTech. But the VBox is going to be more consistant. Either way of testing is much more accurate than seat of the pants feel, and within the variances of temp/baro/elevation/humidity...that comes with comparing two cars anyways. I see you have a steptronic like mine....sedan also?? We have to get some Xede equipped 335i to test. I'm predicting 12.9 @ 111 MPH......not quite is fast as a stock C6 Corvette. They run 12.8 @ 112 (in the table listed earlier in this thread), but have 400HP and weigh hundreds of lbs less. Interestingly enough, the 500HP (but heavier) GT500 Mustang gets about the same numbers. Of course this is with stock street tires. I really believe with slicks, the 335i would run very low 13s.

[musc]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

So you didn't run the qtr mile? Well at least you can see how close the Gtech results are between us....my times were 4.785-4.893 seconds. Thats pretty darn consistant. Yes...let us know how the VBOX results pan out. They can go either way....in the C&D test the Vbox was within a tenth of the timing lights also...but probably more consistant than a GTech.

Little OT, but your M3 is SMG, correct? Just curious what launch technique you used (Launch control, tapping the throttle to bring up the revs, etc). I found launch control to be pretty worthless, yielding about a 5.2-5.3 0-60. In A5, leaving off idle, it did 5.4 sec. The best result I got was tapping the throttle up till about 2500-2700 then trying to ease back into it without doing the 3500K clutch drop in S6.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by catm3

Little OT, but your M3 is SMG, correct? Just curious what launch technique you used (Launch control, tapping the throttle to bring up the revs, etc). I found launch control to be pretty worthless, yielding about a 5.2-5.3 0-60. In A5, leaving off idle, it did 5.4 sec. The best result I got was tapping the throttle up till about 2500-2700 then trying to ease back into it without doing the 3500K clutch drop in S6.

I just do the regular S6 Launch control every time. It still seems like it is hard to keep it from spinning to much, I usually have to lift a little. You can also, do a throttle smash burnout mode, and then quickly lift and modulate as best possible. Too much rpm, or too abrupt..and my tires just spin too much. The 335i is so drama free its kind of strange. I mean, it kind of tears at the tires, but nothing too out of control. Pretty good grip without the LSD. It easily is matching my 60's in the M3 as it is. As I said if you could launch it with some boost...(slicks)...it would lower the 1/4 times to the very low 13's . Power braking it (very briefly!)...it starts spinning the tires right at around 2000 RPMs. If you could launch with that boost..it would do wonders. I think the steptronic has the launch advantage without beating up the car/clutch.