[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

Yes I am a JB3, but what does that have to do with anything.. I still don't see the point of auto tuning on a stock or intake only car. If I want to up my boost from map 3 to 5 because Im dropping some 100 octane in my car, BTW this does not happen on the fly. I usually have to stop my car and get out, kill the ignition to fuel up my tank. When all is said and done I can just switch maps when I turn it back on.....

I think we are having a communication breakdown somewhere. The point we are making is that Procede Autotuning takes the guesswork (and inherent risk) out of having to pick which Map is "appropriate" for YOUR car and YOUR conditions at any SINGLE moment in time. So far, you have been relying on rule of thumb suggestions by your tuner as to what map to run on what gas. This advice is probably "good enough" for many cars in a certain range of operating conditions. But not all. And certainly not those that have more miles/carbon deposits, at higher altitudes, with different gas formulations/mixes, differing mods, etc.

The inconvenient truth is that cars change throughout their life. And operating conditions change throughout the same day let alone seasonally. The truth is that, with a jb3 boost controller, you don't know how over-aggressive (or under-aggressive you are at any given time. So you have no other choice than to follow advice from the tuner which is inherently imperfect. Whereas, the Procede keeps track of how YOUR tune is running in YOUR car at ALL times and adjusts boost, fuel and timing accordingly. I don't think anyone, regardless of tuner "camp" (assuming they still exist these days), would suggest that such a feature isn't useful once they understood what it does, seen it in action and felt the effect.

Regards
Shiv

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

Yes I am a JB3, but what does that have to do with anything.. I still don't see the point of auto tuning on a stock or intake only car. If I want to up my boost from map 3 to 5 because Im dropping some 100 octane in my car, BTW this does not happen on the fly. I usually have to stop my car and get out, kill the ignition to fuel up my tank. When all is said and done I can just switch maps when I turn it back on.....

The factory adaptive (closed loop) timing system and closed loop fueling system make the car essentially auto tuning out of the box. It's just a question of setting the boost curve (note I didn't say level) properly for your octane, mods, and conditions. Monitoring timing advance does make that easier. But you'll also notice you haven't seen many reports of faster track times or improved performance auto ranging boost on timing. It's because the adaptive timing system to a large degree adjusts power for you between these conditions with no other input required.

Still there are some benefits to be had with smarter logic and BMS has their own spin on how to optimize things now that they have the JB3 reading CAN data.

Mike

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The factory adaptive (closed loop) timing system and closed loop fueling system make the car essentially auto tuning out of the box. It's just a question of setting the boost curve (note I didn't say level) properly for your octane, mods, and conditions. Monitoring timing advance does make that easier. But you'll also notice you haven't seen many reports of faster track times or improved performance auto ranging boost on timing. It's because the adaptive timing system to a large degree adjusts power for you between these conditions with no other input required.

No, it's because fast track times are all done when running on race gas. In which case, the DME adopts the maximum timing value and proactive ignition retard/advance limiting isn't used. Come on Mike, please don't make arguments that you know don't hold water.

Still there are some benefits to be had with smarter logic and BMS has their own spin on how to optimize things now that they have the JB3 reading CAN data.

Unless i'm mistaken, you have another "box" reading CAN data. Your jb3 is just controlling boost and biasing the widebands.

Shiv

[yabcoder]

Thanks so much for the info.

I will search about the MT issue stated and continue to read some more reviews of JB3 and Procede.

I can tell both products have a lot of time and effort put forth into them. Procede is more money but is sounds like this is for a reason, autotuning and auto clearing of codes i like the sound of that, not having to hook up a tool everytime.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

No, it's because fast track times are all done when running on race gas. In which case, the DME adopts the maximum timing value and proactive ignition retard/advance limiting isn't used. Come on Mike, please don't make arguments that you know don't hold water.

I'm talking about pump gas track times and I've seen plenty of poor "autotuned" ones lately. My only point being that performance gains over say just running a JB3 on map 5 or 7 have not been realized/proven yet with the current logic IMHO.

Unless i'm mistaken, you have another "box" reading CAN data. Your jb3 is just controlling boost and biasing the widebands.

You are mistaken. The data is available to the JB3 and the CAN transceiver and JB3 processor are on the same board using the same power supply. Still some software work to go before the JB3 does anything meaningful with that data but at this point it's inevitable.

Mike

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

I'm talking about pump gas track times and I've seen plenty of poor "autotuned" ones lately. My only point being that performance gains over say just running a JB3 on map 5 or 7 have not been realized/proven yet with the current logic IMHO.



You are mistaken. The data is available to the JB3 and the CAN transceiver and JB3 processor are on the same board using the same power supply. Still some software work to go before the JB3 does anything meaningful with that data but at this point it's inevitable.

Mike

Amateur drag racing results don't mean much. You and I know that well. After all, didn't you run a 13.x ET a few weeks ago when you went out with Dzenno and Irishrace? So let's not go there shall we?

Also, by jb3 i assumed you mean the jb3 that is available and that other people are running. Not (another) completely redesigned box that you call the jb3. I think the info you are misleadingly painting a picture that this CAN functionality is a firmware/software upgrade away for all those who currently run the jb3. But that's just me. Obviously, the current jb3 boot controller is a bit long in the tooth these days. It just strikes me as odd that your need to upgrade your entire hardware platform only happens after we enable, through software updates, a new feature or two. It's like clockwork.

shiv

[I335]

Originally Posted by Sniz

Given that he asked about codes I would assume he is worried about keeping his warranty. GIAC will not allow that if the shit hits the fan, at least w a piggie he can take it off, clear all codes and play dumb if thats what he wants to do.

GIAC is a great tune, I rode in a stgII car, felt great.

He didn't reference warranty but it's not difficult to tell if someone's been in the ECU box either. In general I think the techs need to put much more effort into detecting a GIAC tune than they do a piggy tune but sure, that risk is there either way. That said, the OP did seem to either miss or ignore my GIAC suggestion so perhaps it's not on his candidate list anyhow. Just sounded to me that he was looking more for the set it & forget it approach...

[joyride]

OP, you'll be fine with either tune, honestly!

Both tunes offer pros and cons. Jb3 gets painted as the best bang for the buck(and generally faster-small margin), but you should/need to buy the bt tool to read/clear codes. The Procede gets painted as the having the most features (and generally safer), no need to buy bt tool because it can read/delete codes.

At the end of the day know this, no tuner will agree with another tuner on how to tune a car. Even though the end result is generally the same, more power and good drive-ability.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by joyride

OP, you'll be fine with either tune, honestly!

Both tunes offer pros and cons. Jb3 gets painted as the best bang for the buck(and generally faster-small margin), but you should/need to buy the bt tool to read/clear codes. The Procede gets painted as the having the most features (and generally safer), no need to buy bt tool because it can read/delete codes.

At the end of the day know this, no tuner will agree with another tuner on how to tune a car. Even though the end result is generally the same, more power and good drive-ability.

Just to clarify, I think ANY tuner in the industry (except BMS who, despite early claims, has not been able to implement it) will agree that active timing control is vital in any tune. Let alone one that doubles or triples boots pressure. And that relying on the knock sensor for all timing control is negligent tuning. Plain and simple. There are always areas of grey when talking different tuning approaches. But this point is as black and white as it can possibly be.

Shiv

[yabcoder]

Originally Posted by I335

He didn't reference warranty but it's not difficult to tell if someone's been in the ECU box either. In general I think the techs need to put much more effort into detecting a GIAC tune than they do a piggy tune but sure, that risk is there either way. That said, the OP did seem to either miss or ignore my GIAC suggestion so perhaps it's not on his candidate list anyhow. Just sounded to me that he was looking more for the set it & forget it approach...

i havent read about this tune, but i will in the coming months, thanks

[I335]

Originally Posted by I335

He didn't reference warranty but it's not difficult to tell if someone's been in the ECU box either. In general I think the techs need to put much more effort into detecting a GIAC tune than they do a piggy tune but sure, that risk is there either way. That said, the OP did seem to either miss or ignore my GIAC suggestion so perhaps it's not on his candidate list anyhow. Just sounded to me that he was looking more for the set it & forget it approach...

Originally Posted by yabcoder

i havent read about this tune, but i will in the coming months, thanks

Cool - try some searching right here on the forum for GIAC. It's certainly an option worth putting on your list... GL!

[FlyingHorse]

6MT Sedan here, using PRocede for 3 years on stock form before upgrading to V4, fmic and etc..., enjoy it every day.

I do not think you would go wrong with either JB3 or PRocede, you should test it out both if want to compare between tunes.

[joyride]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Just to clarify, I think ANY tuner in the industry (except BMS who, despite early claims, has not been able to implement it) will agree that active timing control is vital in any tune. Let alone one that doubles or triples boots pressure. And that relying on the knock sensor for all timing control is negligent tuning. Plain and simple. There are always areas of grey when talking different tuning approaches. But this point is as black and white as it can possibly be.

Shiv

I get what you're saying, but cannot agree or disagree because i don't work with this engine as much as others around here. I do know the stock ECU seems to do a pretty good job at maintaining things (concluded from the lack of jb3 blown/hurt motors and the power they are putting out).

For me, things are a bit different, i've got a dyno i can hop on at any time free of charge. So everything added is fully tested and logged to make sure things are right, or tuner perceived right. Guess i'm lucky.

[BzzzBom]

Originally Posted by I335

Cool - try some searching right here on the forum for GIAC. It's certainly an option worth putting on your list... GL!

Once you try the GIAC tune you will not even consider the piggybacks unless you like messing around with cables and wires and throwing codes. The GIAC offers a 14 day money back guarantee. Try finding one person who returned the GIAC tune. You won't find GIAC vendors engaged in heavy marketing on this or other BMW forums - they don't need to. If you still are considering a piggyback, go with the JB3. You will not get better customer service from any other vendor including GIAC.
Just my $0.02

[ES BMW]

Pointing out that one company has better customer service is kind of implying that their customers have had to call them on numerous occasions.

Personally, I would rather pay a little more and have a product that works without the need to call the vendor/manufacturer. Now, I am not suggesting that Vishu's customer service is any better/worse. I would rather not have a need to call them, that's all.

GIAC is hugely popular in the VW/Audi scene. My S4 had a GIAC chip and it was seriously strong - put a smile on my face every time. I'm looking for the same result when the Procede is ready for my N55.

[Alan l.]

Read this...

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=415746

I went from the JB3 to Procede and i've seen the light lol

[Michael-335IX]

OP-I had my bone stock 335xi flashed with the GIAC STG 1+ 93oct file and I LOVE IT. IMO, it is a option that can't be turned down. It is smooth as glass yet at WOT, it turns into a Pitbull on steroids that has missed one to many dinners. I have to say it is truly incredible.

Just my 2cents.

[i2iSTUDIOS]

Yeah tuning wars!

Where's the popcorn?

[Kensta335]

Originally Posted by i2iSTUDIOS

Yeah tuning wars!

Where's the popcorn?

Here, have some.