[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by toxicnerve

NFS,

I don't doubt that, the PistonHeads debate is mired in (anti-diesel) bias but the overall points they make are sound and I think some of them actually agree with what you've just said.

My point is, I bought my car thinking "reliable German, should last me a while". But if in a couple of years time it starts chucking out 4-figure bills for injectors, HPFP etc then it will be completely uneconomical and I'll end up getting rid.

I suppose I can take out an extended warranty but they have all kinds of stupid limitations and clauses do they not?

I also thought the Pistonheads thread pretty even handed. We'll always get "diesel is the devil's fuel" type comments and "real enthusiasts don't drive diesel", that's life.

Personally I do think modern cars are, as a whole, very complex and therefore expensive to fix. The 'warranty' is more essential than years back when we didn't see the need to have extended warranties.

Two vehicles in our famnily became very expensive to run out of warranty, German engineering as well. To the point that an extended warranty is viewed as part of the running costs these days. Or trade out at the end of three years and start again. Slightly off the original topic, but totally relevant, I've worked the math and to be honest running a car from about a year old to the end of the third year can be the cheapest and 'peace of mind' period. Years four and five can be more expensive when you factor in a warranty, MOTs, extra servicing and replacements which typically come with the period. And that's without pre-mature engine failures.

The other factor with diesel, is the use, we often neglect that in our buying decision. Even the best engineering can be messed by poor running conditions and coking up in start stop and/or lots of short cold runs can fill the upper engine will damp gunk. I'm afraid many users choose diesel for economy, but are only thinking 'fuel', not what is going on inside the engine as they pootle to the shop or do the school run. Some diesels need decoking at around 50k miles as the valves are so gunked and coked (caused by EGR) that you can even lose compression.

My conclusion, we're in a different era with modern engines and the costs for many users will be higher than anticipated.

HighlandPete

[Em135eye]

So while their has been a step up in power and efficiency, there has been a step (or three) back in reliability.

That's not very handy.

And with the efficiency thing - our cars are so much heavier than they once were. I wonder how comparing say an E20 323i to an E90 335i (both top end BMW non M petrols of their time) would compare for mpg?

[toxicnerve]

Totally agree with you HighlandPete.

And that's before we get into the nitty gritty of the modern electrics...everything is so integrated that a simple failure of any one of your control modules could leave you utterly stuck and the cost to fix these things is pretty high.

[beemerbird]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Personally I do think modern cars are, as a whole, very complex and therefore expensive to fix. The 'warranty' is more essential than years back when we didn't see the need to have extended warranties.

The other factor with diesel, is the use, we often neglect that in our buying decision. Even the best engineering can be messed by poor running conditions and coking up in start stop and/or lots of short cold runs can fill the upper engine will damp gunk. I'm afraid many users choose diesel for economy, but are only thinking 'fuel', not what is going on inside the engine as they pootle to the shop or do the school run. Some diesels need decoking at around 50k miles as the valves are so gunked and coked (caused by EGR) that you can even lose compression.

My conclusion, we're in a different era with modern engines and the costs for many users will be higher than anticipated.

HighlandPete

Wise words indeed imo.

Try explaining to people who own diesel engined cars about consistent short/stop start runs and they just seem to shut down or have a glazed expression in my experience. Keeps the dealers etc in business I suppose!

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by beemerbird

Try explaining to people who own diesel engined cars about consistent short/stop start runs and they just seem to shut down or have a glazed expression in my experience. Keeps the dealers etc in business I suppose!

I'm aware of a couple of sale guys who have tried to explain to buyers that diesel is not their best option. There's the definite response like "don't tell me what I want or need".

I know we are often buying into the performance, or torque, or other factors govern the engine choice, but really what's the sense of having a big diesel with DPF when we are running stop start driving in town on cold and humid/damp winter days? A recipe for rapid engine deterioration.

We run quite a few diesels in the family at present and the VW Caravelle 2.5 TDi's have an oil temperature gauge. In sub zero temperatures on a free run (so getting up to heat as fast as possible) the engine will take 16 miles to reach mid range for oil temperature. That's about double the mileage for water temperature on a constant speed run from cold.

Translate that to running in urban environments where there is no chance to heat soak the engine. We have to consider petrol and the faster heating cycle when we drive easy or short trips. I go further, a small petrol engine working hard and hot makes much more sense for urban driving.

HighlandPete

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by beemerbird

Try explaining to people who own diesel engined cars about consistent short/stop start runs and they just seem to shut down or have a glazed expression in my experience. Keeps the dealers etc in business I suppose!

I've used my 335D almost exclusively in short runs (less than 3 miles each way) for 4 years now. Not one single problem. Oil is fine, hardly uses a drop and no gunk. DPF fine (When I feel it engage I continue and drive through the regeneration cycle). Power fine - if anything smoother (runs exclusively on BP Ultimate). Still returns 34 mpg. My 4.2 V8 Jag did 16 mpg, and had nowhere near the torque and unstressed, sprightly feel to it - especially in my mostly suburban driving. Even the A roads here have a 50 mph limit.

Dealers have made nothing from me in extra business.

D.

[beemerbird]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

I've used my 335D almost exclusively in short runs (less than 3 miles each way) for 4 years now. Not one single problem. Oil is fine, hardly uses a drop and no gunk. DPF fine (When I feel it engage I continue and drive through the regeneration cycle). Power fine - if anything smoother (runs exclusively on BP Ultimate). Still returns 34 mpg. My 4.2 V8 Jag did 16 mpg, and had nowhere near the torque and unstressed, sprightly feel to it - especially in my mostly suburban driving. Even the A roads here have a 50 mph limit.

Dealers have made nothing from me in extra business.

D.

Based on what you have said you have been lucky then. Although you do come across to the UK I believe driving the car.

Perhaps also in your case you are aware of how your engine operates etc. My neighbour is not so lucky with their non DPF 2006 model E90 320d, it sounds like a bag of bloody spanners at all times but the owner has zero knowledge of cars. He's taking it to a garage later this week. Only last week a colleague at work appraoched me and asked what could be wrong with his diesel engine (French car). He does constant urban driving or around 4 - 5 miles but this again is an older car, 2005. Maybe as the engine becomes older the 'signs' appear. Hence I really do not like buying older used cars, you never know what they've been through.

Unlike HighlandPete I am not an engineer but agree with much of what he says.

I remember someone on here telling me my daily commute of 22 miles was not enough for my then 335d. It always felt and sounded better for a long run, as do petrol engines.

[HighlandPete]

There are bound to be guys like Dave who don't have issues, even driving short trips, but on the other hand there are folks who are having issues with DPFs, EGR systems and valves... and more. To the point companies like Vauxhall have posted warnings on using cars with DPFs in some conditions. Similar at VW, who are very aware that the cars don't work well with some drivers and their conditions of use.

Something Dave does raise is using premium fuel, that can be a help as there are less emissions from the fuels. I know there will be debate on that as well, but fuel quality (the enhanced additive package) and more efficient combustion can help prevent build up of muck, as there are less particulates to deal with. I personally use a premium fuel, as much for a cleaner engine, as the other gains.

HighlandPete

[beemerbird]

I don't doubt that there will be people like Dave and he should realise that my comments were based on the ill informed and not himself and what you had said previously about coking up and short runs.

I'm sure he will take on board your comments though.

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by beemerbird

I don't doubt that there will be people like Dave and he should realise that my comments were based on the ill informed and not himself and what you had said previously about coking up and short runs.

I'm sure he will take on board your comments though.

No offence was taken, just giving the alternate view.

I haven't worked as a mechanic for many years, but the cars that ended badly coked up usually did so due to a fault in the breather system (allowing a lot of oil blow back, etc. into the intakes), combined with ignorance/neglect/bad fuelling - rather than just short journeys.

Used to service many cars that had low miles and no problems. Sure there will also be people with DPF problems and have piled on the miles.

Not sure many even have a clue when the regeneration cycle is active. Continually switching of prematurely can't help.

D.

[Jeff123]

Not sure many even have a clue when the regeneration cycle is active. Continually switching of prematurely can't help.

D.[/QUOTE]

I don't. When is it active and what does it do?

[zltm089]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Yeah Mate I know what ya mean. I had some
knob on there tell me once he would rather his 1.2 corsa
than a 335d! PMSL

LOL.....

Those pistonheaders.....made the mistake of moaning/ asking for advice about my tyre insurance and a bunch of them acted like gorillas on heat....bloody hell...and i've noticed aswell...its packed with people who have some kinda of hate or frustration against other members....a forum is primarily a place for people with at least something in common...but also debate...with pistonheads its just a bunch of TWATS.

[Em135eye]

Agreed - pistonheads is full of muppets. They hate almost everyone with a decent car yet one or two magically gain legend status for owning (supposedly) an M5 or similar.

Very random.

Try and "join in" many forums as a fellow car enthusiast with a decent car and you'd think you were a paedo at a PTA meeting sometimes.

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by Jeff123

I don't. When is it active and what does it do?

When the Diesel Particle Filter goes into regeneration mode, the gearbox will hang onto gears a bit longer, revving higher before changing. The car will feel slightly like an old car running on a cold choke for a little while, ever so slightly labouring.

The heat build-up to help this process may be noticed when you leave the car, and you may get a burnt caramel odour if your windows are open and the wind blows in the right direction.

It will normally activate when you are doing a certain steady MPH or force itself at lower speeds.

Jusdt drive around for about 10-15 minutes and you'll notice things settle down again.

Not sure if the 320D follows the same pattern ?

D.

[Jeff123]

Thanks Dave.

[beemerbird]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

No offence was taken, just giving the alternate view.

I haven't worked as a mechanic for many years, but the cars that ended badly coked up usually did so due to a fault in the breather system (allowing a lot of oil blow back, etc. into the intakes), combined with ignorance/neglect/bad fuelling - rather than just short journeys.

Used to service many cars that had low miles and no problems. Sure there will also be people with DPF problems and have piled on the miles.

Not sure many even have a clue when the regeneration cycle is active. Continually switching of prematurely can't help.

D.

Thank f*ck for that..............thought you might be becoming a grumpy old Scott

[G82Dude]

Originally Posted by toxicnerve

Quite, the guys on PH are pretty sound generally but they can be a fickle bunch!



Please do, I'd be interested to hear back.

Well, here's the feedback. Normal HP/PD diesel injectors are around £250 each, piezo ones nearer £350, with pumps around £500 from a dealer (but about £160 to a dealer). So, no not a £1,000 an injector/pump. Oh and he (a mechanic) said all the modern HP/PD diesels are a nightmare and can all suffer from injector/pump issues, normally related to poor servicing/filter replacement. Have yet to see major issues on piezo, but then they are relatively new. And before someone gets on their high horse (and we all know who), that's the opinion of the person FIXING the cars!

Not sure they use piezo on 35d; didn't ask. They do on the 40d though.

Labour is extra of course and petrol HPI injectors are much cheaper (<£100) as are the pumps!

[toxicnerve]

Excellent, that's great information!

So for a complete overhaul (all injectors/pump) you'd be looking at £2,600 (plus VAT no doubt) plus labour. Still a fairly princely sum but not as bad as first thought.

Just going out on a limb, I'd be willing to bet that the 35d does use piezo injectors.

[dxb335d]

Denzil bm's are more reliable than their petrol counterparts
look at the issues with the 320si and also 320i and 325i and 335i

PH is full of pricks. Not all of course, but 99%

[G82Dude]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Denzil bm's are more reliable than their petrol counterparts
look at the issues with the 320si and also 320i and 325i and 335i

PH is full of pricks. Not all of course, but 99%

Well, according to my mechanic source, BMW diesels are no worse or no better than any other modern HP/common rail diesel. They have their fair share of problems 3+ years on. Petrol engines are just easier and generally cheaper to repair.

[dxb335d]

That is already disproved though!

[G82Dude]

Originally Posted by toxicnerve

Excellent, that's great information!

So for a complete overhaul (all injectors/pump) you'd be looking at £2,600 (plus VAT no doubt) plus labour. Still a fairly princely sum but not as bad as first thought.

Just going out on a limb, I'd be willing to bet that the 35d does use piezo injectors.

No problemo. Yup, around that cost. And less if you know someone in the trade who can acquire the parts. Not cheap, but then as he said, the more complicated they are keeps him in work! And they are getting worse!

You could well be right re piezo on 35d. Will ask him next time! Definitely on 40d though.