[tscdennab]

Originally Posted by M3 Eater

do i spend my money on a top notch fmic and use the dci or spread it over a CAI and a mediocre fmic.

Either way I have to get out of the Stock FMIC.

I was considering keeping DCI and getting a FMIC (spending like 5-600$) (ets)

or


keeping the stocker for a while and going CAI (spending like $200 on a used stett)

or

getting a good deal on a used CAI and finding a cheap fmic to get out of the stocker. ( $200 on used stett, and $400 on God speed fmic) ( yeah i know that god speed is cheap shit but its gotta be better than stock)

I don't think the combos "DCI + good fmic" and "CAI and stock fmic" are similar at all. The DCI + good FMIC would yeld much lower IATs in my opinion than a CAI + stock FMIC. Plus lower pressure drop of the aftermarket FMIC (however, small aftermarket intercoolers do not have low pressure drop).

[topspin]

Originally Posted by M3 Eater

do i spend my money on a top notch fmic and use the dci or spread it over a CAI and a mediocre fmic.

Either way I have to get out of the Stock FMIC.

I was considering keeping DCI and getting a FMIC (spending like 5-600$) (ets)

or


keeping the stocker for a while and going CAI (spending like $200 on a used stett)

or

getting a good deal on a used CAI and finding a cheap fmic to get out of the stocker. ( $200 on used stett, and $400 on God speed fmic) ( yeah i know that god speed is cheap shit but its gotta be better than stock)

I wouldn't consider a CAI until I already had an FMIC. An aftermarket FMIC will give you the following benefits:

1. Reduce inlet air temperatures significantly when compared to CAI.
2. Reduce heat sink. With the stock unit you'll only get a few full power pulls or perhaps one pull if your tuned and it's hot. After that power will be reduced because of heat soak. CAI won't help with the heat sink issue that your stock FMIC experiences.
3. Reduced pressure drop. With the stock unit there is a fairly large pressure drop when across the intercooler. This means your turbos will have to work harder to reach boost targets. CAI won't help here either.

[M3 Eater]

yeah... thats what I thought... I could have stold a CAI but I really need to save the money on a FMIC.

Looking at Godspeed to save money if I don't reach my ER goal. I have a partial sponsership with ER but I have a ways to go before I earn their FMIC.

They are very proud of their R&D don't like to discount their stuff at all for any reason. I beleive that their FMIC would be superior to the Godspeed, no doubt, but I don't need a race car... well more of one than I have already.

My car performs well, I do want to preserve my turbos so, lower pressure drop is the primary goal! Meth charged air will be ambient sooner or later in the process but I though if I could start with dense cold air, that it would be influenced and cooled better by the stock fmic, and hold more meth on its way past. But again.... the lower pressure drop is what I am after for sure...
AnY hp benefits from the new fmic would be gravy!!!( i have plenty)

From what I understand, God speed is a knockoff of the Spearco... that a $1000 fmic known for being one of the most efficent cores in the business. (according to spearco) well the Godspeed has the same specs and look identical. Just half the price with a 1 year warranty instead of a 3 year warranty.

Not my first choice but for the money...it gets me out of the stocker, it bolts inplace with no cutting, I don't think I have to take off the bumper but if I do... so what.

[M3 Eater]

Originally Posted by tscdennab

I don't think the combos "DCI + good fmic" and "CAI and stock fmic" are similar at all. The DCI + good FMIC would yeld much lower IATs in my opinion than a CAI + stock FMIC. Plus lower pressure drop of the aftermarket FMIC (however, small aftermarket intercoolers do not have low pressure drop).

meth is the kicker... Im spraying meth in each scenerio... so IAT will be the same when I am done...

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by scalbert

It will remove X percent of the energy and not Y value. As such, the delta would be reduced further. If need be, I can do the calculations.

Lol, you are not the only one very familiar with thermodynamics. Latent heat of vaporization for any fluid is a specific quanitity of heat per unit mass. X amount of liquid vaporizing will remove y amount of heat. Either way, I don't think this thread is the place my friend. You know I do not doubt your intelligence in any way. You have been distinctly helpful to me on more than one occasion.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by topspin

+1

I don't think this can be disputed.

There is a specific amount of heat that must be applied to vaporize a substance. Greater air temperature post FMIC means more heat is available to vaporize your methanol / water mixture hence more methanol / water can / will be vaporized. The more grams that get vaporized the greater the temperature drop will be.

So if the only difference between two cars is that car number 1 has post FMIC temps of 120 and car number 2 is 80 I would always expect that this difference of 40 degrees would shrink substantially with meth injection applied to both cars although you may be required to spray slightly more meth with car number 1 to achieve this.

I don't see any way for car 1 to have a lower temperature than car 2 once methanol is introduced but the difference should always be less than it was without meth.

This is theoretical but I imagine that data would indeed confirm this.

The problem is you are thinking in terms of IAT rather than combustion temperature. Does anyone here think that all the fluid will not be vaporized in the combustion chamber heat? If that is indeed an agreed and accepted fact than what are we discussing.

[topspin]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

The problem is you are thinking in terms of IAT rather than combustion temperature. Does anyone here think that all the fluid will not be vaporized in the combustion chamber heat? If that is indeed an agreed and accepted fact than what are we discussing.

I don't get your point. OP is interested in cost effective ways to lower IAT but I can talk about meth / water injection and the cooling effects.

Meth / water has the potential to lower both IAT and combustion chamber temperatures depending on the mixture and volume.

My point is clear though. Hotter a starting temperature yeilds more vaporization and more temperature drop for IAT. Either lower or higher starting temperature can still have some of the liquid remaining to cool the combustion chamber.

Meth and water both cool. Meth will vaporize quicker and tend to yeild lower IAT. Water will tend to linger to cool the combustion chamber and is more efficient in doing so since it has a higher latent heat of vaporization.

I believe that this is getting a little beyond the scope of what the OP is asking about though.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by topspin

I don't get your point. OP is interested in cost effective ways to lower IAT but I can talk about meth / water injection and the cooling effects.

Meth / water has the potential to lower both IAT and combustion chamber temperatures depending on the mixture and volume.

My point is clear though. Hotter a starting temperature yeilds more vaporization and more temperature drop for IAT. Either lower or higher starting temperature can still have some of the liquid remaining to cool the combustion chamber.

Meth and water both cool. Meth will vaporize quicker and tend to yeild lower IAT. Water will tend to linger to cool the combustion chamber and is more efficient in doing so since it has a higher latent heat of vaporization.

I believe that this is getting a little beyond the scope of what the OP is asking about though.

I was under the impression he was curious if a CAI and meth are a contradition? Oh well. Moving on then.

[subieworx]

Originally Posted by M3 Eater

yeah... thats what I thought... I could have stold a CAI but I really need to save the money on a FMIC.

Looking at Godspeed to save money if I don't reach my ER goal. I have a partial sponsership with ER but I have a ways to go before I earn their FMIC.

They are very proud of their R&D don't like to discount their stuff at all for any reason. I beleive that their FMIC would be superior to the Godspeed, no doubt, but I don't need a race car... well more of one than I have already.

My car performs well, I do want to preserve my turbos so, lower pressure drop is the primary goal! Meth charged air will be ambient sooner or later in the process but I though if I could start with dense cold air, that it would be influenced and cooled better by the stock fmic, and hold more meth on its way past. But again.... the lower pressure drop is what I am after for sure...
AnY hp benefits from the new fmic would be gravy!!!( i have plenty)

From what I understand, God speed is a knockoff of the Spearco... that a $1000 fmic known for being one of the most efficent cores in the business. (according to spearco) well the Godspeed has the same specs and look identical. Just half the price with a 1 year warranty instead of a 3 year warranty.

Not my first choice but for the money...it gets me out of the stocker, it bolts inplace with no cutting, I don't think I have to take off the bumper but if I do... so what.

They may look the same but I gaurantee the quality of the cores are vastly different. Spearco (turbonetics) uses hi quality cores that work. eBay junk does not.

[M3 Eater]

Oh, I am here to learn. My degree is in Human Sciences so I understand how temp, fluid, air all have an impact in the equation.

That being said... we are a bit over my head to say the least.

Let me narrow the scope.

Am I losing meth benefit by starting at a colder temp?
( is the meth i am spraying less effective in several catagories 1) Control Octane 2) Control IAT 3) Avoid knock while running more boost.

Finally, I was wondering if it was worth possibly putting (even slightly so) a tiddy bit more strain on the turbos in order to start at a lower overall temp.

My gut feeling is that the DCI has the least restriction possible... can we agree on that?

Also my gut feeling is that the responsibility of cooling of intake air should be directed to the FMIC... the better it is... the better you are.

Lastly, that dropping from say a CM10 nozzle to a CM5 nozzle to save meth would make sense if we have a top notch fmic installed in the first place.

I think its popular to use these big nozzles now because more and more people are going meth before they are FBO. Last year... most BMW guys were just learing how to incorperate meth into an already FBO car so the prescription for CM 5 was appropriate. Now some guys are buying meth before a tune because there is so much info on it now... how its safe, clean for the engine, protects against detonation/knock. For these guys the CM 10 becomes the intercooler/racegas skeleton key.

That brings us to the CAI. If we agree that what I said above makes sense in laymens explanation, The CAI is a pretty option, It does access colder air sooner, but do the benefits deminish to nothing when its added to a top notch fmic and meth system? Does the denser air sooner allow for more oxygen in the chamber, help avoid heatsoak even more, and signifigantly reduce the need for stupid ammounts of meth.


I really want that GODSPEED FMIC to be good, good enough..

There is a smaller version of the one everyone knows about, it just barely bigger than the stocker. The full kit is $300 pipeing and all and it allows for the lid on the bottom of the car that holds the stocker in place to be closed on it so it buttons back up just like the stocker. No plastic ends so its like an all aluminum stock fmic with a few more CM3s.

As far as cores.... again.... I control the temps just fine with meth, my car is fast enough, I am trying to reduce the wastegate duty only at this point. If this unit shows a low pressure drop it will likely be my next mod.

As much as I love the CAI.. i think I am going to pass. (for now)

[topspin]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

I was under the impression he was curious if a CAI and meth are a contradition? Oh well. Moving on then.

Guess your right Former. Given the title of the thread.

Just trying to spread some knowledge that I've learned over the last year or so.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by topspin

Guess your right Former. Given the title of the thread.

Just trying to spread some knowledge that I've learned over the last year or so.

The thread has taken so many turns that I am not sure what it is about anymore.

[topspin]

Boy... your post #32 really covers a lot. I'll respond to some of it. I can't speak to the quality of the GODSPEED FMIC you mention and I'll pass on discussing nozzle size since that brings into play PSI levels of your pump and meth / water ratios to discuss properly.

Originally Posted by M3 Eater

Am I losing meth benefit by starting at a colder temp?

I wouldn't say you lose the benefit of meth by starting at a lower temp. The benefits of meth are:

1. Increases effective Octane which by definition increases the fuel's ability to reduce knock / pre ignition. This should allow you to run more boost / ignition advance which will both yield more power.
2. Cools IAT which also tends to reduce knock a small amount since knock is more likely to occur as temperatures increase. This is where you get air that is more dense and thus has more oxygen per unit volume which in turns means it can better support combustion. Some of the meth vaporizes before the combustion chamber cooling IAT.
3. Cools the combustion chamber as FBIS mentioned. This tends to reduce the likelihood of knock even more than cooler IAT. Some of the meth vaporizes in the combustion chamber cooling the chamber itself.
4. Introduces an additional fuel (meth) to support combustion. At high power levels fuel availability itself becomes a limiting factor. Meth helps to overcome this limitation.

Only number 2 above is slightly but not completely diminished with lower starting temps and I don't even think that this is the most significant benefit.

Originally Posted by M3 Eater

Finally, I was wondering if it was worth possibly putting (even slightly so) a tiddy bit more strain on the turbos in order to start at a lower overall temp.

I don't think your'e putting a larger strain on the turbos. By having lower starting temperatures the turbos shouldn't have to spin as fast to reach boost targets. I believe the RPM of the turbos is the big thing to be concerned with. Keep in mind that hot air is less dense than cold air. And with thinner air the turbos have to work harder to reach boost targets.

For instance, higher altitudes present much thinner air. For longevity purposes some folks will reduce boost targets at altitudes so that their turbos don't spin so fast trying to compress the thin air to a boost target that at altitude is too high.

I believe you're thinking a CAI will lower the temps and put more strain on the turbos since the cooler air is more dense. The opposite should be true.

I think the affects cooler air on the turbos will be much smaller than the altitude example given above. But I don't see a negative affect at all.

Originally Posted by M3 Eater

My gut feeling is that the DCI has the least restriction possible... can we agree on that?

I agree that a DCI is not restrictive however some well designed intakes may be as free flowing as a DCI. I'm not sure that there is a significant difference between a DCI and some other well designed intakes.

But generally I think you're thinking about it in the right way.

Originally Posted by M3 Eater

Also my gut feeling is that the responsibility of cooling of intake air should be directed to the FMIC... the better it is... the better you are.

Yeah I kind of agree. But ultimately every little bit helps. It's just a matter of to what degree. I would focus on the things that are going to make the biggest difference first.

I do beleive that a CAI adds value but just not as much as FMIC and meth. I would definitely add an FMIC before CAI. The benefits of meth are huge. I would just caution that you need to make sure that you have proper failsafes in place before relying heavily on meth while using pump gas and running high boost (18+ PSI). If there is a meth failure your tune will need to reduce boost immediately since you'll be way too agressive in that case.

[M3 Eater]

Originally Posted by topspin

Boy... your post #32 really covers a lot. I'll respond to some of it. I can't speak to the quality of the GODSPEED FMIC you mention and I'll pass on discussing nozzle size since that brings into play PSI levels of your pump and meth / water ratios to discuss properly.


I wouldn't say you lose the benefit of meth by starting at a lower temp. The benefits of meth are:

1. Increases effective Octane which by definition increases the fuel's ability to reduce knock / pre ignition. This should allow you to run more boost / ignition advance which will both yield more power.
2. Cools IAT which also tends to reduce knock a small amount since knock is more likely to occur as temperatures increase. This is where you get air that is more dense and thus has more oxygen per unit volume which in turns means it can better support combustion. Some of the meth vaporizes before the combustion chamber cooling IAT.
3. Cools the combustion chamber as FBIS mentioned. This tends to reduce the likelihood of knock even more than cooler IAT. Some of the meth vaporizes in the combustion chamber cooling the chamber itself.
4. Introduces an additional fuel (meth) to support combustion. At high power levels fuel availability itself becomes a limiting factor. Meth helps to overcome this limitation.

Only number 2 above is slightly but not completely diminished with lower starting temps and I don't even think that this is the most significant benefit.



I don't think your'e putting a larger strain on the turbos. By having lower starting temperatures the turbos shouldn't have to spin as fast to reach boost targets. I believe the RPM of the turbos is the big thing to be concerned with. Keep in mind that hot air is less dense than cold air. And with thinner air the turbos have to work harder to reach boost targets.

For instance, higher altitudes present much thinner air. For longevity purposes some folks will reduce boost targets at altitudes so that their turbos don't spin so fast trying to compress the thin air to a boost target that at altitude is too high.

I believe you're thinking a CAI will lower the temps and put more strain on the turbos since the cooler air is more dense. The opposite should be true.

I think the affects cooler air on the turbos will be much smaller than the altitude example given above. But I don't see a negative affect at all.



I agree that a DCI is not restrictive however some well designed intakes may be as free flowing as a DCI. I'm not sure that there is a significant difference between a DCI and some other well designed intakes.

But generally I think you're thinking about it in the right way.



Yeah I kind of agree. But ultimately every little bit helps. It's just a matter of to what degree. I would focus on the things that are going to make the biggest difference first.

I do beleive that a CAI adds value but just not as much as FMIC and meth. I would definitely add an FMIC before CAI. The benefits of meth are huge. I would just caution that you need to make sure that you have proper failsafes in place before relying heavily on meth while using pump gas and running high boost (18+ PSI). If there is a meth failure your tune will need to reduce boost immediately since you'll be way too agressive in that case.

Thanks for your attention... I wasn't thinking colder air was straining the turbos. It was the tubing to reach the cold air that would add restriction to the incoming air.

I am sticking with the DCI, investing and an fmic, and hopefully I can reduce the amount of meth mix I am spraying while maintaining stable timing. I am excited about a fmic I found made by god speed that is a bit smaller than the most popular one. The lid that holds the stocker in will close on this keeping the stock appearance, and hopefully reducing the pressure drop that the stock fmic is known for, giving my turbos a break. If I gain 5whp from this unit I will be happy as a pig in shit. I just want to see the boost target easily with little to no wastegate activity. Nothing would make me happier... unless someone wanted to buy me a new M3... so i could eat it!