[Shawn_speed]

It would be really nice if Shiv would comment on the tranny as well as the rear differential. Usually the rear end is more sensitive to torque overload than the tranny.

Shawn
Phoenix

[NFS13]

Originally Posted by Shawn_speed

It would be really nice if Shiv would comment on the tranny as well as the rear differential. Usually the rear end is more sensitive to torque overload than the tranny.

Shawn
Phoenix

+1. Having verified with ZF that the auto IS the 6HP 21TU rated at 450nm. I tried emailing Shiv weeks ago but got no response.

This may not be the most popular post because of all the love Shiv gets, but to sell the kit to auto tranny owners without a warning, or more importantly some research on the tranny specs, was not the most responsilbe business move. I have been following the progress of the unit with plans to buy thinking the tranny was able to handle 400+ according to his earlier posts. Now I guess its time to look at smaller gains from other sources?

[vase330]

Originally Posted by DrM

WOW...that shows the 335 in Europe using the 6HP19, which was apparently replaced by the 6HP21.

ZF rates the 6HP19 at 400nm (295 ft-lbs) and the 6HP21 at 450nm (332 ft-lbs) (1nm = 0.7375 ft-lbs).

I doubt that ZF designed enough strength into the transmission to handle ~550nm (405 ft-lbs) from a PROcede equipped car. If BMW had installed the 6HP28, there is room to spare but probably not with the 6HP21 or the 6HP19. A 25% increase in torque over the designed numbers is huge.

We will probably start hearing about failures of the automatic transmissions in PROcede equipped cars. That much torque over designed specs could cause all sorts of trouble. I suppose that only time will tell.

I am glad that I have a manual! I just have to worry about eating clutches

I think I have been more scared than others on here since I have had 2 failled Steptronics in my 330ci. The last time was two months ago and out of warranty. It cost me $6K to replace it. . The thought of another one going bad scares me stiff. How come bloody BMW wont say anything on the tranny limits? Why is ZF not really giving a definitive answer on exactly what is in the 335 and how much it will hold? I emailled them and as you can imagine got no reply. The silence is deadening! Someone really needs to step up and tell people what is what or else those who upgrade their 335 will be sorry down the road. There are people here upgrading leased cars too. That goes out as a warning to anyone considering an off lease 335. DONT DO IT! You have no idea what the kind of trauma the car been through, so if you can't get a new one, stay away from those. I can tell you first hand from expirience BMW sucks when something goes wrong with your car. They are not even close to helpful. My initial tranny failled with 90 miles on the odometer, I wanted out of the car and BMW essentially said you have to go to court to do that, and mind you, this was a brand new car. I love the cars, but the company sucks big time. On the second failure, given the history I have had with this, you'd think they'd help or even care; Nooooo, they told me "you have 111K on that car, thats a lot of miles you are lucky you got that much out of it" This is my 3rd new BMW!!! How is that for service? I didn't ask for no handout, no free stuff, I thought BMW should have atleast worked a deal with me to cover the dealer labor costs and I would buy a new unit. What did they do instead? They called ParkAve BMW in Maywood, NJ where I bought all my cars, and had the sales manager call me to tell me he can get me into a new car!! Not an F-ing chance! Shame on them! I have a dead tranny, and instead of helping me fix the issue first then sell me a car, all they saw was a $$$$. I called the service department after being shafted by BMW NA, manager says someone will call me back, but never did! Next day I call, I am told manager is out. Call me paranoid but, I suspect they didn't want to deal with the issue. I have been a loyal customer since 1999 and 3 cars later this is what I get? They just lost a customer. I really want a 335 but I will keep my POS 330 and maul over this until I get a real definite and comfortable answer on the steptronic in that car because if I get it, I am putting the procede in it. A buddy mentioned earlier that he read BMW said its limited to 300 TQ because tranny wont handle more, and that got me worried so I went fishing. I thought we concluded this issue, but this actually got me worried again. These boards are so damn helpful and could save your butt from some really expensive mistakes IMHO. So whats it gonna be? Why all the damn confusing nomenclature with the trannys? BMW We are the buying public buying your cars, and this is in your own best interests!

[Vinobien]

the number quoted as the Rated Torque capacity no doubt has a design factor of safety built in to it. I wouldn't doubt if it was 1.5 or 2.0. quit worrying. Several folks with and without the Procede have burnt up clutches - definite weak link. Everything in the rear is the same, so we are all in the same boat not knowing the design limits.

[bmwzimmer]

Originally Posted by DrM

WOW...that shows the 335 in Europe using the 6HP19, which was apparently replaced by the 6HP21.

ZF rates the 6HP19 at 400nm (295 ft-lbs) and the 6HP21 at 450nm (332 ft-lbs) (1nm = 0.7375 ft-lbs).

I doubt that ZF designed enough strength into the transmission to handle ~550nm (405 ft-lbs) from a PROcede equipped car. If BMW had installed the 6HP28, there is room to spare but probably not with the 6HP21 or the 6HP19. A 25% increase in torque over the designed numbers is huge.

We will probably start hearing about failures of the automatic transmissions in PROcede equipped cars. That much torque over designed specs could cause all sorts of trouble. I suppose that only time will tell.

I am glad that I have a manual! I just have to worry about eating clutches

http://www.zf.com/defaultz.asp

Product Type of
prime mover speeds
(forw.) Input torque
(Nm)
5 HP 19 Standard/Heck 5 300
5 HP 24 Standard/Heck 5 420
6 HP 26 Heck 6 600
6 HP 26 A Heck Allrad 6 600
6 HP 32 Heck 6 750
4 HP 20 Front 4 330
5 HP 19 FL Front 5 310
6 HP 32 AHeck Allrad 6 770

The higer 5-speed HP 24 is good for 309 ft-lb TQ
6 speed HP 26 is good for 442.8 ft-lb TQ
6 speed HP 32 is good for 553.5 ft-lb TQ

So the torque the 6AT can handle is 442.8

[Move.Over]

Originally Posted by bmwzimmer

http://www.zf.com/defaultz.asp

Product Type of
prime mover speeds
(forw.) Input torque
(Nm)
5 HP 19 Standard/Heck 5 300
5 HP 24 Standard/Heck 5 420
6 HP 26 Heck 6 600
6 HP 26 A Heck Allrad 6 600
6 HP 32 Heck 6 750
4 HP 20 Front 4 330
5 HP 19 FL Front 5 310
6 HP 32 AHeck Allrad 6 770

The higer 5-speed HP 24 is good for 309 ft-lb TQ
6 speed HP 26 is good for 442.8 ft-lb TQ
6 speed HP 32 is good for 553.5 ft-lb TQ

So the torque the 6AT can handle is 442.8

The 335i uses the 6HP21 rated at 450 Nm = 332 ft-lb TQ.

The 6HP26 and newer 6HP28 are used in the higher Torque diesel versions.

[bmwzimmer]

Originally Posted by NFS13

+1. Having verified with ZF that the auto IS the 6HP 21TU rated at 450nm. I tried emailing Shiv weeks ago but got no response.

This may not be the most popular post because of all the love Shiv gets, but to sell the kit to auto tranny owners without a warning, or more importantly some research on the tranny specs, was not the most responsilbe business move. I have been following the progress of the unit with plans to buy thinking the tranny was able to handle 400+ according to his earlier posts. Now I guess its time to look at smaller gains from other sources?

Go to the ZF website to get the actual numbers. It's funny how people FREAK out after reading BS links and think it's FACT. Don't call Shiv out that way when you have no facts or know what you're talking about. That PDF regarding the E93 is not stating the correct transmission anyways. It's claiming the 325, 330 and 335 all share the same 6HP 19 which isn't even the case as we all know the 335 has a much quicker shifting sophisticated tranny.

[bmwzimmer]

Originally Posted by Move.Over

The 335i uses the 6HP21 rated at 450 Nm = 332 ft-lb TQ.

The 6AT26 and newer 6AT28 are used in the higher Torque diesel versions.

PROOF??? That's total BS man.

The 335i uses a milti-ratio HECK mover.
6 HP 26 Heck 6 600 N-m

This is information right off their website.

Sometimes when you call companies, you usually talk to some Salesman who doesn't know crap and just busted out an old catalog and gave you that 6HP21. The 335 6AT already dynos at 265-285 ft-lbs. At the crank, it's already 315-340ft-lbs. So you're telling me they put in a tranny with almost ZERO saftey factor??? Give me a break. Give it up dude, you're statements don't make sense

[Move.Over]

Originally Posted by bmwzimmer

PROOF???

Read the internal BMW document for the E90 I uploaded. Notice the letters TU ( Technically Improved) behind the transmission for the 335i and 335d. All press releases mention this improvement. The problem is that BMW calls them TU and ZF adds 2 to the number. Several people have contacted ZF and gotten the response it is the 6HP21

I.E: 6HP19 TU = 6HP21 (335i) and 6HP26 TU = 6HP28 (335d)

[bmwzimmer]

Dude, PLEASE brother, give it up. The PDF is inaccurate. It's FLAT OUT wrong and is what the ZF reps are probably using for reference. Your PDF is claiming the 325 and 330 models use this same transmission as 335 when everyone knows they are not the same tranny.

[Move.Over]

Originally Posted by bmwzimmer

Dude, PLEASE brother, give it up. The PDF is inaccurate. It's FLAT OUT wrong and is what the ZF reps are probably using for reference. Your PDF is claiming the 325 and 330 models use this same transmission as 335 when everyone knows they are not the same tranny.

So I gave you the PROOF and that is your repsonse, everything you have said has been inaccurate. The PDF is an internal BMW document. Not ZF.

READ!!! the 325 and 330 uses the 6HP19 ( notice no TU)

Noticed you quickly edited your 5 speed comment

[grkm3]

why dosnt some one jack there car up and read the numbers?That would put an end to all this.

[Shawn_speed]

There is no reason to argue over semantics. Bottom line is we are not 100% sure what the torque handling of the transmission AND the rear differential is. How is this different than the engine itself? Do you think if we officially asked BMW “what is the maximum boost at 5723 RPM that this engine will safely handle?” we would get any answer other than the stock specs?

People are still insisting N54 is not an N family engine at all but based on M54. So the confusion about the rest of the drive train will be with us for a while.

Shiv is doing a fantastic job and to his credit he is letting us live vicariously through him by doing his work in plain view. Every time an issue has come up, he has dealt with it. Why don’t we have some patience and have faith that over time he will address this issue as well?

Every mechanical or structural design has safety factors build into it. Just because this might be factor 1.5, 2 or 2000 is irrelevant. You can’t just assume since the safety factor was put in there you can ignore the ratings. The factors are there because humans make mistakes, overlook thinks and in larger scheme of things don’t know a lot.

Some of us feel comfortable being early adopters in certain areas and some don’t. How many people have commented that they will not buy an untested turbo car in its first production cycle from BMW? On the other hand, plenty of us feel no remorse even after the hassle of having the fuel pump replaced. Even if the torque handling numbers conflict with gains possible through PROcede, plenty of us will take the chance because of the risk reward balance.

Shawn
Phoenix

[Shawn_speed]

Originally Posted by grkm3

why dosnt some one jack there car up and read the numbers?That would put an end to all this.

I took a look. It is not that easy. Quite a few chastity belts have to be undone to get to the transmission.

Shawn

[DrM]

Originally Posted by bmwzimmer

Dude, PLEASE brother, give it up. The PDF is inaccurate. It's FLAT OUT wrong and is what the ZF reps are probably using for reference. Your PDF is claiming the 325 and 330 models use this same transmission as 335 when everyone knows they are not the same tranny.

According to the BMW parts department, YOU need to get your facts straight. The automatic transmission in the 2007 335i is the 6HP19 according to the BMW parts department reference materials.

If you don't believe it, call BMW yourself. I just did. If you want to say that the parts department at BMW is wrong, knock yourself out.

I don't really care which transmission is in the car since I have the manual, which can handle the extra torque. However, it will be important to a lot of people here if the transmission can't handle the added torque from the PROcede.

In my previous car, a built big block Corvette, I know first hand what too much torque can do. It shredded two TH400's before I had one built well enough to withstand the power. After that, it shredded half shafts and tires

[DrM]

I thought that it was amazing that ZF got within 2% of the fuel economy of a manual with the automatic. I will have to think carefully about the choice between auto and manual next time. The autos are SO much easier to drive in traffic. They also shift so much darn faster

[Move.Over]

Originally Posted by DrM

I thought that it was amazing that ZF got within 2% of the fuel economy of a manual with the automatic. I will have to think carefully about the choice between auto and manual next time. The autos are SO much easier to drive in traffic. They also shift so much darn faster

It is, what is more amazing is the fact they are working on an 8-Speed Auto, to be released in the next 7 series, jumping past the MB 7 speed Auto. It just looks like yesterday that the 3 speed auto or 4 speed manual was your standard transmission.

[Shawn_speed]

Move.Over:

That is a great reference. Thanks for taking the time to find it. Between that news release, which I remember originally came from BMW at the introduction in July and DrM's inquiry to BMW's parts department, it seems clear:

1: ZF 6 HP 19 TU in BMW speak = ZF 6 HP 21 in ZF speak

2: All Gasoline 335i automatic transmissions = ZF 6 HP 19 TU

3: ZF 6 HP 19 TU torque rating = 450 NM

4: Manual transmission in gasoline 335i are type G. Although we don't know the exact rating of the manual, we feel comfortable with it because it is also in the 07 M5 according to your earlier post.

I think we now have a legitimate question for Shiv to ponder.

Shawn
Phoenix

[Shawn_speed]

Originally Posted by DrM

I thought that it was amazing that ZF got within 2% of the fuel economy of a manual with the automatic. I will have to think carefully about the choice between auto and manual next time. The autos are SO much easier to drive in traffic. They also shift so much darn faster

Yes and no. This apparent efficiency is partially smoke and mirrors not known to occur naturally in the real world.

Manual Ratios:

4th 1.192
5th 1.00
6th .872
Final 3.08

Auto Ratios
4th 1.143
5th .867
6th .691
Final 3.46

6th in manual is a lower gear than 5th in auto!!!!

As a man law, anyone who posts on this board during market hours has a lead foot.

Lead foots are a lot happier in 5th & 6th gears with the ratios shown for the manual. If they drive the same way with an auto, they'll never see the claimed efficiency which is based on grandma having an egg between her foot and the gas pedal to stay in overdrive ratios.

Shawn
Self appointed N54 is not based on M54 police

[bmwzimmer]

The transmission manufacturer doesn't even offer the 6HP21 on their website anymore. It must be disconitinued a while ago.

http://www.zf.com/ZF_ProductDB/user/...uageISOCode=en

Here's a Link from zf.com

Nothing's for sure tho since all the different sources state different things....

[Shawn_speed]

Originally Posted by bmwzimmer

The transmission manufacturer doesn't even offer the 6HP21 on their website anymore. It must be disconitinued a while ago.

http://www.zf.com/ZF_ProductDB/user/...uageISOCode=en

Here's a Link from zf.com

Nothing's for sure tho since all the different sources state different things....

There is your sign!

[bmwzimmer]

Originally Posted by Shawn_speed

Move.Over:

That is a great reference. Thanks for taking the time to find it. Between that news release, which I remember originally came from BMW at the introduction in July and DrM's inquiry to BMW's parts department, it seems clear:

1: ZF 6 HP 19 TU in BMW speak = ZF 6 HP 21 in ZF speak

2: All Gasoline 335i automatic transmissions = ZF 6 HP 19 TU

3: ZF 6 HP 19 TU torque rating = 450 NM

4: Manual transmission in gasoline 335i are type G. Although we don't know the exact rating of the manual, we feel comfortable with it because it is also in the 07 M5 according to your earlier post.

I think we now have a legitimate question for Shiv to ponder.

Shawn
Phoenix

Think about what you're saying if this is the case. You think BMW decided to put a tranny with a max tq. rating of 450NM or 332 ft-lbs in a car that makes 280 ft-lbs at the wheels??? If that's the case, with ZERO modifications, everyone should expect a Tranny Failure.