[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Asked and answered. IMHO those dips are not knock in the traditional sense. Beyond that you'll have to ask BMW.

Mike

Arnt those dips the same dips the jb4 autoting uses to take out .25psi everytime it happens not during a gear shift?

[onesuperboi]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Asked and answered. IMHO those dips are not knock in the traditional sense. Beyond that you'll have to ask BMW.

Mike

LOL. Isn't the JB relying on BMW for timing?

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by onesuperboi

LOL. Isn't the JB relying on BMW for timing?

Easy, we dont want him running away so soon.

[Proper Motion LLC]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Asked and answered. IMHO those dips are not knock in the traditional sense. Beyond that you'll have to ask BMW.

Mike

Pretty sure Cobb agrees with u, but than again Clap knows all and makes Cobb look like amateur tuners

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Arnt those dips the same dips the jb4 autoting uses to take out .25psi everytime it happens not during a gear shift?

At the moment yes. As I've also said before avoiding them has become a good best practice. The best way to think of those dips are as preknock. The DME intervenes by dropping advance before actual knock occurs. As I've said before in cases where it can't react fast enough or properly you definitely hear and feel detonation with this motor. On the JB4 tuning the next generation of map 5 will be monitoring the knock sensor signals directly as well.

Mike

[Clap135]

This entire community relies on timing drop outs. The jb4 autotunes based on timing drop outs......but now timing drop outs according to mike are not knock? So wtf is the jb4 doing then?

Pre knock? what exactly is pre knock mike?

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by onesuperboi

LOL. Isn't the JB relying on BMW for timing?

We all are...

Mike

[OpenFlash]

lol... this is too much. Mike, stop with the nonsense.

[Alan l.]

So to summarize what BMS is saying so far...

1) those timing drop outs doesn't mean knock
2) jb3/4 currently relies on those same drop outs to lower boost on autotuning to protect the motor?

Alan

[vasillalov]

Clap135,

See, I have hard time wrapping my head around something like this. What you are basically saying here with these logs is that the stock DME with BMW factory firmware is junk when it comes to controlling timing. Now, I am sorry, but either you are missing something here, or BMW has something else in mind that we are not aware of.

You have to understand that a statement like that is very very hard to swallow for any BMW owner here. You are saying that the stock car knocks all the time, but yet, I've never heard of anyone complaining about how their stock car drives. As a matter of fact, most people here are looking for smoothness of their tune, comparable to stock.

Note: I am not saying you are wrong, or trying to attack you personally. I am just saying that it is bit difficult to come to terms with "Stock ECU is not capable of doing timing correctly"

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Clap135,

See, I have hard time wrapping my head around something like this. What you are basically saying here with these logs is that the stock DME with BMW factory firmware is junk when it comes to controlling timing. Now, I am sorry, but either you are missing something here, or BMW has something else in mind that we are not aware of.

You have to understand that a statement like that is very very hard to swallow for any BMW owner here. You are saying that the stock car knocks all the time, but yet, I've never heard of anyone complaining about how their stock car drives. As a matter of fact, most people here are looking for smoothness of their tune, comparable to stock.

Note: I am not saying you are wrong, or trying to attack you personally. I am just saying that it is bit difficult to come to terms with "Stock ECU is not capable of doing timing correctly"

I think you're missing that the stock logs were of in ambient temps of 100* through multiple gear pulls....so yes, it does knock in those conditions... Not saying that BMW is always knocking...

[WOPALX]

JB3 and JB4 do monitor for knock. When the level of detonation becomes bad enough the JB unit phones home to let Terry know he's got to refund some $ to an unhappy customer

Above is of course purely speculation

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Clap135,

See, I have hard time wrapping my head around something like this. What you are basically saying here with these logs is that the stock DME with BMW factory firmware is junk when it comes to controlling timing. Now, I am sorry, but either you are missing something here, or BMW has something else in mind that we are not aware of.

You have to understand that a statement like that is very very hard to swallow for any BMW owner here. You are saying that the stock car knocks all the time, but yet, I've never heard of anyone complaining about how their stock car drives. As a matter of fact, most people here are looking for smoothness of their tune, comparable to stock.

Note: I am not saying you are wrong, or trying to attack you personally. I am just saying that it is bit difficult to come to terms with "Stock ECU is not capable of doing timing correctly"

I am not saying that. I am saying the factory timing control is meant to work for most stock cars. What you do by upping the boost (sometimes 2x or more then stock) is forcing the dme to do what it does on a stock car in bad conditions, and judging by all those logs, it doesnt do a good job. Also those drop out on a stock tune are far less harmful then drop outs on a car running more boost.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

FYI here is clap135/laloosh's opinion on timing and CPS a few months ago...

Originally Posted by laloosh

IMO, cps offsetting is cute and prevents iditos from knocking incase they run the car too agressive. Is it vital? Not really, look at the jb3. A/f ratio tuning, all 3 have this dialed it seems. Terry is now working on running richer maps for nitrous users and as demostrated by formerboost, it worked out GREAT. Shiv also has some nitrous maps and they're a little leaner but still look very nice. The standback you can dial in you own a/f ratio, however based on experience and what I've read form terry, this car doesn't really give a $#@! about a/f ratio as long as your are not stupid rich/lean. So this leaves us with boost. When I first got the n54 i looked at the procede and the juice box and simpled BASHED them to all hell. Got banned for e90. Both tunes looked like mickey mouse $#@! with their boost control. Since then shiv copied the standback, and terry seemed to sorta smooth his stuff out. However, the standback is more stable and lets you dial in your own boost curve with actual numbers. Thats cool, however will it make you go faster? No it won't, so thats a mute point imo. Changing boost from 15.5 at 5500 rpm to 15.8 cause you could, is nice, but won't result in much of anything. lol The jb3/procede have different boost curves however both work great, With the standback, you make your own.

Take 3 cars, jb3/procede/standback or whateer tune you want.....if boost is the same on those car and the throttle stays open, neither of them wll pull. So pick whatever you want lol and feels the best while providing simple easy features.

[JoseMaria]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Clap135,

See, I have hard time wrapping my head around something like this. What you are basically saying here with these logs is that the stock DME with BMW factory firmware is junk when it comes to controlling timing. Now, I am sorry, but either you are missing something here, or BMW has something else in mind that we are not aware of.

You have to understand that a statement like that is very very hard to swallow for any BMW owner here. You are saying that the stock car knocks all the time, but yet, I've never heard of anyone complaining about how their stock car drives. As a matter of fact, most people here are looking for smoothness of their tune, comparable to stock.

Note: I am not saying you are wrong, or trying to attack you personally. I am just saying that it is bit difficult to come to terms with "Stock ECU is not capable of doing timing correctly"

Long time lurker registered to this site just to say +1 to this post. Gotta think BMW R&D knows something about long term reliability of their engines and has probably tested the stock tune in extreme conditions.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

FYI here is clap135/laloosh's opinion on timing and CPS a few months ago...

And look what I am running now.....neither. At the time of that post, the options that are now available, werent. How this pertains to the topic at hand again? However if you want to bring up past post, you should also mention that I ran meth on all the tune for the sole reason of the timing control options being "shit" imo.

[JB4-335]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Ambiant int he 90s with IATs barely over 100 degree through a couple gears....go sell bs somewhere else, either that or let me know what front mount he is running cause thats not possible.

I ran some logs with my JB4 yesterday here in Australia and temp were in higher 80's and my IAT's were exactly the same as Mike's log.

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by Clap135

I am not saying that. I am saying the factory timing control is meant to work for most stock cars. What you do by upping the boost (sometimes 2x or more then stock) is forcing the dme to do what it does on a stock car in bad conditions, and judging by all those logs, it doesnt do a good job. Also those drop out on a stock tune are far less harmful then drop outs on a car running more boost.

Ok, I see where you are going with this now...

Seriously now, upping the boost on a car and then not properly controlling ignition advance is simply a disaster waiting to happen. Anyone who fails to understand this simple concept is destined to spend a lot of money on repairs, eventually.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Clap135

I am not saying that. I am saying the factory timing control is meant to work for most stock cars. What you do by upping the boost (sometimes 2x or more then stock) is forcing the dme to do what it does on a stock car in bad conditions, and judging by all those logs, it doesnt do a good job. Also those drop out on a stock tune are far less harmful then drop outs on a car running more boost.

seems like some of you missed my post, so here it is again.....

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Clap135,

See, I have hard time wrapping my head around something like this. What you are basically saying here with these logs is that the stock DME with BMW factory firmware is junk when it comes to controlling timing. Now, I am sorry, but either you are missing something here, or BMW has something else in mind that we are not aware of.

You have to understand that a statement like that is very very hard to swallow for any BMW owner here. You are saying that the stock car knocks all the time, but yet, I've never heard of anyone complaining about how their stock car drives. As a matter of fact, most people here are looking for smoothness of their tune, comparable to stock.

Note: I am not saying you are wrong, or trying to attack you personally. I am just saying that it is bit difficult to come to terms with "Stock ECU is not capable of doing timing correctly"

You're in chicago, so you do see some heat. when you WOT when stock and it's hot... doesn't feel so good huh; not like the winter? This is timing. the dme is trying to reach the same load target, so why is it slower... timing.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by JB4135

I ran some logs with my JB4 yesterday here in Australia and temp were in higher 80's and my IAT's were exactly the same as Mike's log.

Post the logs showing ambiant then. What front mount do you have and how long was the actual log?

[WOPALX]

Not being an expert but isn't the sample rate of the JB software slower than Vishnu's? If that's the case would it not inadvertently smooth the curve so to speak?

Regardless the idea of doubling the boost and relying on the stock timing map to keep you out of trouble is fought with danger IMHO, especially when users can run maps etc too high for their supporting maps.