[DLJJ3399]

This is a repost and you may or may not have seen this video. But if this is with DSC on then if sure would bother me! Check it out! Sit back and enjoy the ride.

Plus... if Tiff Needel and Sabine Schmitz give the car kudo's I tend to believe them.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...41333908711207

[ALPINE6SPD]

this has not cost me any sales so I really dont care either way. If it was me I would still get a manual.

[010101]

Originally Posted by FirstClass

The car does it for you faster than you ever could...

Undiluted is not the future of cars. Undiluted usually means slow. Just like the M5, 6MT = slower than SMG. Humans can't beat machines. If you can sense the slip of all 4 wheels at once and adjust power braking, etc. accordingly be my guest. The argument against SMG is like the arguments about ABS back in the day. "Real driving enthusiasts" will say they dont' need it, but the people who have it will always be faster.

Like I've said before, I like technology. I like most of its uses in cars, but I don't like it when it replaces the driver. Shifting and controling the car in slides are huge parts of performance driving. They are huge part of what makes driving fun and engaging... and makes it require some skill. I concede that DSG and SMG are capable of beating an actual driver on the track, but what's the point of being a DRIVING enthusiast when you are being replaced by a computer?

What's going to happen when the fastest way around a track is to load the track data into your GPS guided, self-driving sports car? Will you still be saying undiluted means slower? I mean sure, in many cases it does mean that, but it also means the driver is actually DRIVING. You really don't have much to brag about when your car shifts itself, helps you with the launch, helps you keep it straight at the limit, helps you under hard braking ect ect. You are pretty much just going along for the ride, and that's pretty boring. All that's left for you to do is steer. And when a car can give you a perfect apex every time you will be slower at that too.

An M car used to be for the driving enthusiast. Now it is just for the person who wants to go a little faster. BMW is making Ultimate Transportation Machines not Ultimate Driving Machines. Go drive an M5 back to back with an Evo. Or drive a Lotus or Porsche back to back with any current BMW. You will see what I'm talking about.

[010101]

Originally Posted by vAnt826

I can't see why you would care, go back to your AMG fanboy land all you do here is talk shit about BMW. Go waste your time somewhere else.

I am talking about how much better manual trannies are than autos, and you are calling me an AMG fanboy? You really are clueless. I have owned several BMWs. I have never owned an AMG. Even the SLR McLaren is an auto! Apparently the guys over at edmunds are stuck in AMG fanboy land too.

[Viral]

Originally Posted by 010101

I said it "would be" a deal breaker. I didn't say that it "is" one. I never pretended to be in the market for an M5. Am I not allowed to make comments about cars I'm not interested in buying? Read some more threads in this forum. You will be making a lot more comments like that one.

if you're not gonna buy one then why are you so upset at BMW? You even use the F-word in the subject line of your post

If you were truly interested in the M5 you'd propbably already have it......instead, you're more interested in making useless threads like this (and the many others on this board).

If you EVER get the money and balls to buy an M5.......that's when you should talk.

[Hunter399]

why would you buy an m5 without SMG?

Thats just dumb

[010101]

Originally Posted by Viral

if you're not gonna buy one then why are you so upset at BMW? You even use the F-word in the subject line of your post

If you were truly interested in the M5 you'd propbably already have it......instead, you're more interested in making useless threads like this (and the many others on this board).

If you EVER get the money and balls to buy an M5.......that's when you should talk.

I've already repeatedly explained why I have started this thread. I'm not going to do it again. You can go back and read what I've already typed. Many people on this board have started threads in this section about cars they have no intention of buying. If this thread was about a Bugatti or Ferrari you would have no issue with it. Since it is about BMW and you are one of those brand loyal morons who worships everything your favorite manufacturer does you are crying about it. I guarantee I have owned more BMWs than you have. If you had owned various M's you would appreciate what I was saying. Since you are just a magazine reading 330 driver you have no idea what I'm talking about so you attack it.

If you really think my thread is so useless then why do you feel the need to respond to it and bump it to the top? The M5 much like your 330 is not a car that requires "balls" to purchase. People don't buy big heavy computer aided sedans because they have big balls. They buy them because they need room and a safe, reasonably well handling daily driver. Sorry to burst your bubble. If you have such an issue with me using the F-word (censored) I don't know why you're talking about balls in the first place. :finger:

[musc]

I think a recent Car and Driver also scolded BMW for the 6MT M5. Seems sad that you pay that much for a car and have to worry about non defeatable electronic nannies. I can see having that as a default, but I agree you should be able to turn them off.

I didn't realize production numbers would be so low. Maybe that is BMWs way of saying 'buy the SMG'.

I'd have to disagree about the SMG being a terrible transmission. The dealer told me the same thing about people turning them in, but typically they are referring to non-E46 M3 SMGs. The ones that they put in the Z4, etc were terrible. Not the same transmisison, no drivelogic, etc. They weren't really suited for a non-M car. Also, people that hate the SMG are the ones who try to treat it like an automatic. In auto mode, it sucks, no doubt about it. Thats why 99.99% of the time I drive in sequential mode. Shifts are smooth when I want them or downright firm when needed. My only gripe is the non adjustable launch control.

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by hunter399

why would you buy an m5 without SMG?

Thats just dumb

I never experienced the SMG. I did the DSG (Audi) and was nice, but not impressive.
The bottom line, why would you want ANY BMW without the 6MT?

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by 010101

Go drive an M5 back to back with an Evo. Or drive a Lotus or Porsche back to back with any current BMW. You will see what I'm talking about.

I understand what you're saying. Actually, I originally asked for an Elise but was denied due to the lack of AWD and the fact that it is entirely impractical.

[SP330]

I am nearly spot on with 010101's arguments on how BMW has lost its enthusiast following.

One may beg the question: "But we're BMW enthusiasts!"

BMW surely will have you probably for eternity. It is those of us driving enthusiasts BMW has lost.

As for the topic at hand: The SMG really isn't all that bad, it's just the auto mode that is awful. It was made specifically to mate with this engine. SMG most certainly is a step forward and understandable in high end car such as the M5. (definitely not in a much more pure M car such as the Coupe or Roadster)

Would I get it? No. Because I'm not constantly out there trying to set out record times, and I want something that won't bore me.

[vAnt826]

Originally Posted by SP330

I am nearly spot on with 010101's arguments on how BMW has lost its enthusiast following.

One may beg the question: "But we're BMW enthusiasts!"

BMW surely will have you probably for eternity. It is those of us driving enthusiasts BMW has lost.

As for the topic at hand: The SMG really isn't all that bad, it's just the auto mode that is awful. It was made specifically to mate with this engine. SMG most certainly is a step forward and understandable in high end car such as the M5. (definitely not in a much more pure M car such as the Coupe or Roadster)

Would I get it? No. Because I'm not constantly out there trying to set out record times, and I want something that won't bore me.

Who are you to say driving enthusiasts need to drive a 6sp?

Last time I checked, driving enthusiasts drive cars not trannies. With that logic, the SLR, all AMGs, etc. would all be non-driving enthusiast cars.

[SpecC]

^Also with the logic, WRC and F1 have lost their minds!

[010101]

Originally Posted by vAnt826

Who are you to say driving enthusiasts need to drive a 6sp?

Last time I checked, driving enthusiasts drive cars not trannies. With that logic, the SLR, all AMGs, etc. would all be non-driving enthusiast cars.

Bingo. AMG's really aren't true driving enthusiast cars. They are for top execs who want something with a sporty image to sit on the 405 with on their way to Westwood. Don't get me wrong... they are well made cars, but they are far from true driver's cars. Sure, if you give something enough power mashing the pedal will be fun, but that it not what real performance driving is about. Overweight automatic luxury cars are not driver's cars. The Ms used to not be in this category. The 1995 M3 was a true driver's car. The new manual M5 is not.

If you are sitting around reading specs thinking about how sweet an AMG with 700ftlbs of torque must be consider this... Out of all of the upscale cars I have driven a 500 hp CLS AMG was one of the most dull while a 190 hp Lotus Elise was one of the most exciting. This is why I found it hilarious when you accused me of being in "AMG fanboy land." AMGs are the epitome of what I am talking about here.

[010101]

Originally Posted by dr325i

I never experienced the SMG. I did the DSG (Audi) and was nice, but not impressive.
The bottom line, why would you want ANY BMW without the 6MT?

If you were not impressed with DSG you certainly would not be impressed with SMG. DSG is far better. If I were forced to not have a proper manual I would go for a DSG car. I may have been a little overly critical of SMG. It can be fun at times, but it certainly is the weakest link in the new M's. A car that is as good as the M5 could be should not only be offered in SMG, but giving it TC that can't be turned off is even worse.

[010101]

Originally Posted by SP330

I am nearly spot on with 010101's arguments on how BMW has lost its enthusiast following.

One may beg the question: "But we're BMW enthusiasts!"

BMW surely will have you probably for eternity. It is those of us driving enthusiasts BMW has lost.

Exactly. The only people who have a problem with what I'm saying here are those brand loyal idiots who would gladly buy a Yugo if it had a propeller badge on it. Criticism from life long Bimmer fans is not blasphemy. I miss the cars BMW used to make, and I wish they'd make more of them. It's just sad to see the M's get stuff like TC you can't turn off. The M's are supposed to be cars you can have fun with.

[canuck335i]

Originally Posted by dr325i

I never experienced the SMG. I did the DSG (Audi) and was nice, but not impressive.
The bottom line, why would you want ANY BMW without the 6MT?

the 7 speed SMG M5 transmission is geared perfect for the E60 M5, the 6 speed manual is not and it shows in all performance results since it is out.

I drove the SMG E60 M5 for over 30000km last year and it is a very good set-up, teamed with this engine characteristics, its a joy to drive, not, NOT boring at all!!

In it's current set-up, I would never buy an 6 speed manual E60 M5.

my .02

[06330i]

Are you sure you can't turn the TC off? I saw an m5 on here and the guy was doing donuts. Last time I checked you couldn't do donuts with tc.

[canuck335i]

Originally Posted by 06330i

Are you sure you can't turn the TC off? I saw an m5 on here and the guy was doing donuts. Last time I checked you couldn't do donuts with tc.

you cannot turn it off (the TC) on the 6 speed manual, but you can on the 7 speed SMG so the one you saw was a 7 speed SMG.

[vAnt826]

Originally Posted by 010101

Bingo. AMG's really aren't true driving enthusiast cars. They are for top execs who want something with a sporty image to sit on the 405 with on their way to Westwood. Don't get me wrong... they are well made cars, but they are far from true driver's cars. Sure, if you give something enough power mashing the pedal will be fun, but that it not what real performance driving is about. Overweight automatic luxury cars are not driver's cars. The Ms used to not be in this category. The 1995 M3 was a true driver's car. The new manual M5 is not.

If you are sitting around reading specs thinking about how sweet an AMG with 700ftlbs of torque must be consider this... Out of all of the upscale cars I have driven a 500 hp CLS AMG was one of the most dull while a 190 hp Lotus Elise was one of the most exciting. This is why I found it hilarious when you accused me of being in "AMG fanboy land." AMGs are the epitome of what I am talking about here.

You still didn't answer my question.

Who are you to say driving enthusiasts need to drive a 6sp?

Did you yourself define the term 'driving enthusiast'?

[Viral]

Originally Posted by 010101

Exactly. The only people who have a problem with what I'm saying here are those brand loyal idiots who would gladly buy a Yugo if it had a propeller badge on it. Criticism from life long Bimmer fans is not blasphemy. I miss the cars BMW used to make, and I wish they'd make more of them. It's just sad to see the M's get stuff like TC you can't turn off. The M's are supposed to be cars you can have fun with.

I doubt you're a good enough driver to be able to induce and control extremely wild skids/slides even if the M5 (or any car) allowed you to disable the TC......yet you still insist that the M5 isn't a true "driver's" car........have you ever thought you may not be a true driver?? That's probably why you don't have an M5 That, and you don't have the BALLS to plop down 90K on an M5, even if you did have 90K. Yes sir, buying expensive cars (or anything expensive) takes balls.......it's more mindset than monetary.

If you're such an authority on this, why aren't you employed by BMW as an advisor?????? Shouldn't they be compensating you for the same wisdom you are giving us for free?

BTW, I'm not a fanboy or "loyal" BMW enthusiast....the 330 is my wife's car

[010101]

Originally Posted by Viral

BTW, I'm not a fanboy or "loyal" BMW enthusiast....the 330 is my wife's car

Hahahaha so you come on a BMW board and pose with your wife's car and you're not even into BMWs? So now that I know it wasn't your "big balls" that bought the Bimmer it was your wife's big vagina maybe you could tell me what you actually drive... Mr. big balls