[twinturbopg]

Originally Posted by Calvin@Vishnu

Thanks! The car does indeed have an oil cooler. In fact, it has two! And oil temps refused to budge above 260.

Ok, good to know. If you guys need another tester on the track I know somebody that's going to Infineon for the entire day in June and/or July pm me if needed.

[Calvin@Vishnu]

Originally Posted by zsapphire7

curious... is it possible to lower the psi activation level for the meth? It would be nice if meth came on a bit earlier in some cases to prevent relative high(40C) IATs when not at WOT. Looking at the datalogs, a good majority of the course only has a few spurts of meth.

Yep.. it sure is. We can have it spray during cruise if need be (instead of the 5psi threshold we have now). But in the case of road course use, some conservatism is necessary. But with it only consuming a gallon every 3 sessions, we could probably get more generous with it. But then again, the question is if you really need to have low IATs during low engine torque demand. If you demand more torque, just dig your foot deeper, watch IATs drop almost instantly and get all the power you are looking for.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Calvin@Vishnu

Yep.. it sure is. We can have it spray during cruise if need be (instead of the 5psi threshold we have now). But in the case of road course use, some conservatism is necessary. But with it only consuming a gallon every 3 sessions, we could probably get more generous with it. But then again, the question is if you really need to have low IATs during low engine torque demand. If you demand more torque, just dig your foot deeper, watch IATs drop almost instantly and get all the power you are looking for.

Wow, that sounds familiar

[Glowin]

Originally Posted by DaFish

Given the amount of focus on this kit, and the "debate" on the facts and myths" of PWM kits... to NOT have a comparison between no meth and the PPS kit in the same session is disappointing to say the least. I think this "miss" will RAGE the debate.....

Team Vishnu, we get the benefits of PWM. We need some comparison data between your new and old kit.

Ding ding! Same question I brought up. Not gonna happen.

Originally Posted by Glowin

I don't get it...

Wouldn't this whole debate be squashed by Shiv in a second if he posted PPS meth dynos/logs compared to the new PWM kit ones on the same car, proving the large bump in power with the new kit? I know he's posted the PWM ones on their own...

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The problem with that is that people would cry foul based on nozzle size/design differences, different water/meth mixtures, dyno conditions, etc,. It's really hopeless. When you have "experts" on the other side of the argument insisting that injection pressure drops by 50% when PWM duty cycle is 50% because their $12 gauge said so, there is nothing that will make the two parties see eye to eye.

[zsapphire7]

Originally Posted by Calvin@Vishnu

Yep.. it sure is. We can have it spray during cruise if need be (instead of the 5psi threshold we have now). But in the case of road course use, some conservatism is necessary. But with it only consuming a gallon every 3 sessions, we could probably get more generous with it. But then again, the question is if you really need to have low IATs during low engine torque demand. If you demand more torque, just dig your foot deeper, watch IATs drop almost instantly and get all the power you are looking for.

The DME seems to take back timing before meth starts spraying when IAT hit 40-45C. The transition from off boost to boost after a long period of not exceeding 5/6psi means the actual advance will be very low because the DME expects really high temps, then once meth sprays, the DME realizes its okay and allows for agressive timing again.

If we insure lower IATs I would venture to guess, more smooth transition to power since the DME wont react like this + lower IATs off boost could always help make power in the low end and more smooth transitions from off boost or low boost to higher boost demands.

[kjrulz]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

As mentioned before, zsapphire7's laptop suffered from a blue screen of death in the last session as he was saving the no-meth log. So all we have to go on is a driving impression of what it was like running meth vs. no meth. Obviously we know what to expect.

The point that Calvin was making in this thread had to do with how perfect the logs looked and how much less meth was consumed than with conventional PPS system. I think at this point, most reasonably informed people don't question that metering meth as you would fuel (which is what is) is better than simply dumping it as you would shotgun a beer.

I can read clearly, however, what I'm saying and what I've said is that if you don't have a comparison to PPS or a baseline.


You want to sell your PWM kits and settle this argument definitively then set up a proper experiment. Bring along an informed, unbiased resource and test no meth, PPS & PWM.

Otherwise, your word against another's. Good Luck.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

It's only required if you want a well-fitting "plug and play" fully underhood solution. If you want to cobble something together yourself, you can drill holes in your factory charge pipe, buy a $100 elbow, or bend/bang on your aftermarket chargepipe. I suspect those in the market for a $250 meth kit would be okay with this

#1. You're ridiculing everyone who purchased your previous meth kit as it included an elbow compatible with the stock charge pipe.
#2. Your listing on procedetuning.com clearly marks the charge pipe as "required", not "only required if you want a well-fitting plug and play solution". It's false advertising.
#3. You still have yet to provide real-world datalogs of a conventional meth kit with progressive controller vs your PWM meth kit.
#4. Calvin's statement about going WOT to cool charge temps faster sounds VERY familiar

[N54_Fan]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

It's only required if you want a well-fitting "plug and play" fully underhood solution. If you want to cobble something together yourself, you can drill holes in your factory charge pipe, buy a $100 elbow, or bend/bang on your aftermarket chargepipe. I suspect those in the market for a $250 meth kit would be okay with this

Shiv or Calvin,

A few questions...

1) I thought one of the key reasons to run meth was to effectively run higher octane and thus be able to reduce timing even more. As I undertand this would allow for faster more efficient burn in the cylinder later in the cylinder cycle and thus more power and less chance of knock (correct me if I am wrong,...). So the question is why is it that your meth logs have similar Ign Tming to the non-meths maps?

2) It appears that when meth comes "on" there is a rapid increase in flow and a wavy plateau as the PWM kits rapidly opens and closes...at least thats what it looks like. How is this rapid rise and plateau different from an all on/off system? It looks like there is essentially no ramp up or ramp down on the meth when throttle is partially pressed or being eased into. This is most evident on log #2 at 564 sec and 566-569 sec as throttle is rising but less than WOT and boost exceeds. If this PWM Kit were to emulate a EFI system shouldn't there be an increase in meth flow in direct proportion to RPM and throttle position?

3) I do take a bit of issue with your comment about banging and bending an aftermarket CP. I for one am very interested in a PWM kit at present. However, I do NOT wish to use the windsheild washer fluid resevoir as I dont like the idea of this being directly adjacent to the turbos. I also have a quality CP that has bungs already and would like to make use of these. Will there be some way for those of us that are willing to "bang/bend our aftermarket CP" to use this system with a tank in the trunk? If we have a trunk mount system will there be any issues with the distance needed to run the hose from the pump in the trunk to the solenoid in the engine bay? Is there any advantage of your system vs the Aquamist HFS-3 system that it seems to be based on? Why couldnt we use the HFS-3 system and their controller with Procede if we get the methanol upgraded maps for Procede?

Thanks.

[Clap135]

A better question would be how many cc/min the system flows when wot.

[Chefcg1]

yep we need to see a comparison between the old kit and the new. I would also like to see the kit hold up for more than 1 year. I know for a fact there are a lot of the old kit owners who have had a terrible time with the labonte failsafe. Hell i can't get labonte to answer my emails about my faulty failsafe. Is vishnu going to be the warranty provider?

[werke-t]

Originally Posted by Chefcg1

yep we need to see a comparison between the old kit and the new. I would also like to see the kit hold up for more than 1 year. I know for a fact there are a lot of the old kit owners who have had a terrible time with the labonte failsafe. Hell i can't get labonte to answer my emails about my faulty failsafe. Is vishnu going to be the warranty provider?

+1 what kind of warrnanty if offered on this product?

-Travis

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Chefcg1

yep we need to see a comparison between the old kit and the new. I would also like to see the kit hold up for more than 1 year. I know for a fact there are a lot of the old kit owners who have had a terrible time with the labonte failsafe. Hell i can't get labonte to answer my emails about my faulty failsafe. Is vishnu going to be the warranty provider?

Wow, labonte still hasn't provided warranty exchanges on those flow sensors?

[Calvin@Vishnu]

Originally Posted by N54_Fan

Shiv or Calvin,

A few questions...

1) I thought one of the key reasons to run meth was to effectively run higher octane and thus be able to reduce timing even more. As I undertand this would allow for faster more efficient burn in the cylinder later in the cylinder cycle and thus more power and less chance of knock (correct me if I am wrong,...). So the question is why is it that your meth logs have similar Ign Tming to the non-meths maps?

The benefit of running meth, or any other octane enhancer, is to be able to increase (not reduce) timing advance. The burn rate of a high octane and low octane scenario is the same. But the high octane air/fuel charge is less likely to burn abnormally since it requires a higher amount of pressure/heat to ignite. The ignition timing values on meth are considerably higher than that what they would be off of meth in these conditions. In these conditions, running with no meth would result in 0-3 deg of actual advance due to high IATs from sustained load. With meth, typical advance numbers are in the 10-12 deg range at WOT. Also, it's important to not confuse actual timing logs from DME timing logs (which don't take in the ignition retard the Procede applies). In this case (with meth), the Procede applies no ignition retard which is rarely the case on the street.

2) It appears that when meth comes "on" there is a rapid increase in flow and a wavy plateau as the PWM kits rapidly opens and closes...at least thats what it looks like. How is this rapid rise and plateau different from an all on/off system? It looks like there is essentially no ramp up or ramp down on the meth when throttle is partially pressed or being eased into. This is most evident on log #2 at 564 sec and 566-569 sec as throttle is rising but less than WOT and boost exceeds. If this PWM Kit were to emulate a EFI system shouldn't there be an increase in meth flow in direct proportion to RPM and throttle position?

This was explained in an earlier thread. Basically, the flow signal (debug byte 5) is the raw squarewave signal provided by the aquamist flow sensor. It is not processed/smoothened in any way to account for the pulses of meth being pushed through the turbine on the flow meter. At the very least, a more accurate indicator of flow would be to average these high frequency spikes (which are clearly evident at lower duty cycles). We are working on a way to convert this raw signal into something more indicative of actual flow. But doing so without compromising response time takes some work. There is no question that actual flow at 50% DC is roughly half of what it is at 100%DC.

3) I do take a bit of issue with your comment about banging and bending an aftermarket CP. I for one am very interested in a PWM kit at present. However, I do NOT wish to use the windsheild washer fluid resevoir as I dont like the idea of this being directly adjacent to the turbos. I also have a quality CP that has bungs already and would like to make use of these. Will there be some way for those of us that are willing to "bang/bend our aftermarket CP" to use this system with a tank in the trunk? If we have a trunk mount system will there be any issues with the distance needed to run the hose from the pump in the trunk to the solenoid in the engine bay? Is there any advantage of your system vs the Aquamist HFS-3 system that it seems to be based on? Why couldnt we use the HFS-3 system and their controller with Procede if we get the methanol upgraded maps for Procede?

As said before, we will offer a retrofit kit for those with old meth kits and for those who want to keep hardware in the trunk. If you keep the chargepipe and pump in the trunk, you can use any charge pipe you want since there is no space constraint. In your case, a retrofit kit plus an Aquatec pump will give you everything you need to have such a system. We are testing retrofit kits out this week and should have pricing soon.

-c

[Clap135]

So max flow at full boost?

[Calvin@Vishnu]

Originally Posted by Chefcg1

yep we need to see a comparison between the old kit and the new. I would also like to see the kit hold up for more than 1 year. I know for a fact there are a lot of the old kit owners who have had a terrible time with the labonte failsafe. Hell i can't get labonte to answer my emails about my faulty failsafe. Is vishnu going to be the warranty provider?

We have been working on getting Labonte to offer replacement failsafes. The last time we talked to them a couple weeks ago, they were testing a revised unit. Haven't talked to them since however. That said, we are looking into the possibility of offering an Aquamist failsafe for those running the old Labonte kit It's a much better/more durable failsafe than any of the plastic-bodied failsafes out there which simply aren't compatible with 100% meth. At least not compatible enough for provide long term usage. This applies to all the flow sensors from CM/Snow/AEM/etc, as they all use one or two different internal flow tubes. None of which will work for extended periods of time in a high meth environment. Conversely, I don't know of any Aquamist failures. And I've talked to race teams who have been using the flow sensors for years in 100% meth environments. The Mitsu evo/suby guys religiously run the hardware in 100% meth environments as well. And no issues there either.

[Calvin@Vishnu]

Originally Posted by werke-t

+1 what kind of warrnanty if offered on this product?

-Travis

Aquamist has a 1year warranty on all parts. These are motorsports components at the end of the day. But we are just talking about as solenoid and a flow tube here. No electronics, circuit boards, power supplies, etc,. Not much to go wrong besides stuffing up the flow sensor with dirt. But that's the job of the in-line filter which is mounted upstream of the pump. There is even another filter mounted upstream of the washer bottle pump which the Meth pump is drawing through.

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Wow, that sounds familiar

Yep

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by N54_Fan

Shiv or Calvin,

A few questions...

1) I thought one of the key reasons to run meth was to effectively run higher octane and thus be able to reduce timing even more. As I undertand this would allow for faster more efficient burn in the cylinder later in the cylinder cycle and thus more power and less chance of knock (correct me if I am wrong,...). So the question is why is it that your meth logs have similar Ign Tming to the non-meths maps?

2) It appears that when meth comes "on" there is a rapid increase in flow and a wavy plateau as the PWM kits rapidly opens and closes...at least thats what it looks like. How is this rapid rise and plateau different from an all on/off system? It looks like there is essentially no ramp up or ramp down on the meth when throttle is partially pressed or being eased into. This is most evident on log #2 at 564 sec and 566-569 sec as throttle is rising but less than WOT and boost exceeds. If this PWM Kit were to emulate a EFI system shouldn't there be an increase in meth flow in direct proportion to RPM and throttle position?

3) I do take a bit of issue with your comment about banging and bending an aftermarket CP. I for one am very interested in a PWM kit at present. However, I do NOT wish to use the windsheild washer fluid resevoir as I dont like the idea of this being directly adjacent to the turbos. I also have a quality CP that has bungs already and would like to make use of these. Will there be some way for those of us that are willing to "bang/bend our aftermarket CP" to use this system with a tank in the trunk? If we have a trunk mount system will there be any issues with the distance needed to run the hose from the pump in the trunk to the solenoid in the engine bay? Is there any advantage of your system vs the Aquamist HFS-3 system that it seems to be based on? Why couldnt we use the HFS-3 system and their controller with Procede if we get the methanol upgraded maps for Procede?

Thanks.

You want to advance not reduce timing. Its a slower burn. You need to start combustion earlier (advance timing).

[Calvin@Vishnu]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

You want to advance not reduce timing. Its a slower burn. You need to start combustion earlier (advance timing).

It is not a slower burn. It's a more stable burn. Which allows for more spark advance/boost.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Calvin@Vishnu

We have been working on getting Labonte to offer replacement failsafes. The last time we talked to them a couple weeks ago, they were testing a revised unit. Haven't talked to them since however. That said, we are looking into the possibility of offering an Aquamist failsafe for those running the old Labonte kit It's a much better/more durable failsafe than any of the plastic-bodied failsafes out there which simply aren't compatible with 100% meth. At least not compatible enough for provide long term usage. This applies to all the flow sensors from CM/Snow/AEM/etc, as they all use one or two different internal flow tubes. None of which will work for extended periods of time in a high meth environment. Conversely, I don't know of any Aquamist failures. And I've talked to race teams who have been using the flow sensors for years in 100% meth environments. The Mitsu evo/suby guys religiously run the hardware in 100% meth environments as well. And no issues there either.

Few points to bring up, cm isn't advertising their flow sensor to be compatible with 100% meth, the labonte units are simply defective, and no one I know of running the snow failsafe has any issues with 100% meth or any high meth mixture.

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by Calvin@Vishnu

It is not a slower burn. It's a more stable burn. Which allows for more spark advance/boost.

Okay thanks for letting me know.

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by Calvin@Vishnu

We have been working on getting Labonte to offer replacement failsafes. The last time we talked to them a couple weeks ago, they were testing a revised unit. Haven't talked to them since however. That said, we are looking into the possibility of offering an Aquamist failsafe for those running the old Labonte kit It's a much better/more durable failsafe than any of the plastic-bodied failsafes out there which simply aren't compatible with 100% meth. At least not compatible enough for provide long term usage. This applies to all the flow sensors from CM/Snow/AEM/etc, as they all use one or two different internal flow tubes. None of which will work for extended periods of time in a high meth environment. Conversely, I don't know of any Aquamist failures. And I've talked to race teams who have been using the flow sensors for years in 100% meth environments. The Mitsu evo/suby guys religiously run the hardware in 100% meth environments as well. And no issues there either.

Maybe you could ask coolingmist to give you a few FCB that are 100% meth compatible. I am sure they would be willing to give you a few tips. Also, coolingmist says not to use over 70/30 with their flow sensor. I guess they arent into false advertising.