[Calvin@Vishnu]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

You mean PSO? All the CM kits listed on my site are PWM. Their new high speed solenoid is pretty good. Holds up to 200psi and is much more durable than Aquamists. Cheaper too.

As a side note I noticed your new kit picks up the meth from the washer fluid line like BMS' new kit. Cool stuff huh? Makes install really easy and you get to use the entire washer fluid reservoir rather than just the top 2/3rds. Any idea of the washer reservoir piping and rubber seats can withstand pure methanol for long? A leak there could result in a major fire.

Mike

Mike, I don't have the time nor inclination to debate nomenclature. There are far more important things that I need to do today. If you want to call a PPS system a PWM system because of the PWM signal that controls the pump speed, that's fine. It's purposely misleading. But okay.

If CM is actually offering a system that meters flow based upon a constant pump speed/pressure and a PWM metered solenoid, that's great! Hopefully it will work better than their last attempt.

And I don't know what you are alluding to with respect to running pure meth. Did we recommend running pure methanol? Or are you trying to suggest that we did? Or are you simply justifying your use of a flow sensor that isn't truly meth compatible?

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by (-(ellblazer420

If they do leak it doesn't take very long to replace. It took maybe 10 min to have the reservoir out. Not a big deal at all.

Cant change it if you were burnt to death.

[Calvin@Vishnu]

Soooo don't use a flow sensor that is truly methanol compatible because running too high of a concentration of meth with burn your car to the ground anyway?

[EastBayE90]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

Cant change it if you were burnt to death.

Lol have u taken out the tank or even seen it's location? I have and it's no where near anything hot it would be close to impossible to ignite. This is senseless ramble nice try bud.

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by (-(ellblazer420

Lol have u taken out the tank or even seen it's location? I have and it's no where near anything hot it would be close to impossible to ignite. This is senseless ramble nice try bud.

What exactly am I trying, bud? And it depends on where you tap the tank and run the line. All that DIC juice is getting in your head.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

What exactly am I trying, bud? And it depends on where you tap the tank and run the line. All that DIC juice is getting in your head.

We tap the line right next to your dme box and run it over and behind the engine. Not exactly in the line of fire. It's also worth noting that the washer fluid bottle is in the fender behind a heatshield. It's really not very close to the turbos. Only the filler neck (also protected by a thick heatshield) is actually in the engine bay.

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

We tap the line right next to your dme box and run it over and behind the engine. Not exactly in the line of fire. It's also worth noting that the washer fluid bottle is in the fender behind a heatshield. It's really not very close to the turbos. Only the filler neck (also protected by a thick heatshield) is actually in the engine bay.

Okay, well then there should be no problems. I wasnt referring to the vishnu kit in the first place though. I have seen the photos on another website, and youre right, its not in an area that gets very hot. I was just talking about where it was tapped, but obviously the location you chose wont be a problem.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Calvin, to add to your coolingmist solenoid claims Dave told me the valve was at 400 hz which is what the designer and patent owner of the valve calibrated it for them.

Wasn't the old aquamist valve (the one before the one you are using) actually an ink jet actuator?

Mike

[Focus]

Personally.. i dont really care for this thread to turn into an arguement..

Just want to see logged differences from the same vehicle, that'd be nice...

[Calvin@Vishnu]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Calvin, to add to your coolingmist solenoid claims Dave told me the valve was at 400 hz which is what the designer and patent owner of the valve calibrated it for them.

Wasn't the old aquamist valve (the one before the one you are using) actually an ink jet actuator?

Mike

I can't really comment about a product that I have never seen or used. But I'm guessing that if it worked well for 7 out of 8 WRC rally cars, it probably served its purpose well.

And yes, 400hz is astronomically high for an injector. A standard fuel injection running a fraction of the fluid pressure only runs at 100-120hz. Do you know what happens to the system's dynamic range as you increase operational frequency of the solenoid?

[EastBayE90]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

What exactly am I trying, bud? And it depends on where you tap the tank and run the line. All that DIC juice is getting in your head.

Sorry for coming off strong. I reacted because I'm tired of the PWM bashfest. Shiv worded it much better.

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by (-(ellblazer420

Sorry for coming off strong. I reacted because I'm tired of the PWM bashfest. Shiv worded it much better.

Its okay, nothing personal here. I wasnt bashing PWM by the way. I was strictly talking about the Windshield wiper fluid tank.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Calvin@Vishnu

Mike, I don't have the time nor inclination to debate nomenclature. There are far more important things that I need to do today. If you want to call a PPS system a PWM system because of the PWM signal that controls the pump speed, that's fine. It's purposely misleading. But okay.

If CM is actually offering a system that meters flow based upon a constant pump speed/pressure and a PWM metered solenoid, that's great! Hopefully it will work better than their last attempt.

And I don't know what you are alluding to with respect to running pure meth. Did we recommend running pure methanol? Or are you trying to suggest that we did? Or are you simply justifying your use of a flow sensor that isn't truly meth compatible?

You're certainly feisty today!

I'm not talking about flow sensors. Actually flow sensors are pretty old technology. Very antiquated. CM has a new proprietary system that monitors flow without any fluid contact. Less fittings to leak, easier to install, less expensive, more reliable, none of the choppy readings you get from traditional flow sensors, etc.

I was asking about methanol and the washer fluid reservoir. BMS is testing the same washer fluid reservoir setup and the question has been raised if it hold up long term to the corrosives effects of higher methanol mixtures. How safe is it? Another member posted a photo of their washer res leaking fluid which brought up the question. Methanol leaks around the hot exhaust manifold and turbos would make for a pretty bad day.

Mike

[cn555ic]

Jesus...These threads are getting old now man...I have the old, so called PPS system and I am sure this new PWM is great...At this point there are probably pros and cons of both systems...At the end they both allow the car to log awesome timing curves and run more power and boost.. For novice meth users that have Procede, its a easy entry system for them to dip their feet into using Meth and not be scared! I think the problem is not the functionality of it for people that are interrogating PWM but the price tag that comes with the Vishnu kit...Like I said when everything is done for you and its basically a plug and play kit, and with kits that are custom fitted for a specific car, there is a price for a kit like that considering most people that are new to meth would pay for installation about 400-500 dollars to hook up a meth kit anyway!!! This kit is simple enough to do it yourself and no need to get someone to install it for you, so saving the 400 bucks in actuality is the same price you would pay for a conventional kit! Not everyone is a gear head that uses meth! There are some that want the power and dont want to fuss around with basic PPS kits... I dont understand what the drama is all about...Both kits work the same but uses different logic, which is better, more efficient is subjective IMO...Ease of install I have to say this kit would make me not fear methanol injection as all newbies have a fear of injecting fluids into a engine..With these threads attacking the PWM methanol system, Shiv is still going to sell a thousand kits regardless because there are many out there who want simplicity and using Procede...People want to have something dummied down to the point it relieves the fear of using meth and I think this kit does its job for the new comers who never injected meth before...Consider me dumb!

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

Jesus...These threads are getting old now man...I have the old, so called PPS system and I am sure this new PWM is great...At this point there are probably pros and cons of both systems...At the end they both allow the car to log awesome timing curves and run more power and boost.. For novice meth users that have Procede, its a easy entry system for them to dip their feet into using Meth and not be scared! I think the problem is not the functionality of it for people that are interrogating PWM but the price tag that comes with the Vishnu kit...Like I said when everything is done for you and its basically a plug and play kit, and with kits that are custom fitted for a specific car, there is a price for a kit like that considering most people that are new to meth would pay for installation about 400-500 dollars to hook up a meth kit anyway!!! This kit is simple enough to do it yourself and no need to get someone to install it for you, so saving the 400 bucks in actuality is the same price you would pay for a conventional kit! Not everyone is a gear head that uses meth! There are some that want the power and dont want to fuss around with basic PPS kits... I dont understand what the drama is all about...Both kits work the same but uses different logic, which is better, more efficient is subjective IMO...Ease of install I have to say this kit would make me not fear methanol injection as all newbies have a fear of injecting fluids into a engine..With these threads attacking the PWM methanol system, Shiv is still going to sell a thousand kits regardless because there are many out there who want simplicity and using Procede...People want to have something dummied down to the point it relieves the fear of using meth and I think this kit does its job for the new comers who never injected meth before...Consider me dumb!

I agree with some of that. Much of the objection has to do with the price tag. That it requires a special slightly expensive charge pipe and that it's more than the normal Aquamist variable solenoid kit (only you don't get the controller) contributes to that. You are right that quick install has a value in terms of saving time and labor. That's why I'm so excited BMS is finally doing a quick install meth kit. One without the steep price tag. And rather than replacing the controller with the JB4 and keeping that as extra profit they are replacing the controller with the JB4 and passing that savings along to their customers. WIN/WIN!

Mike

[Sniz]

shit doesnt change around here much huh?

[tmdb335]

cant we all just get along

[zsapphire7]

sooo i actually happen to have the old PPS system in a box in my garage. i never got around to installing it because im too lazy and uninstall looks like a pain too.

But if someone really wants to do that for me then we can do back to back tests... i think its not unreasonable that we dont have direct comparisions because who would in their right mind have both a PPS and PWM lying around to test...?

[Brey335i]

Originally Posted by zsapphire7

sooo i actually happen to have the old PPS system in a box in my garage. i never got around to installing it because im too lazy and uninstall looks like a pain too.

But if someone really wants to do that for me then we can do back to back tests... i think its not unreasonable that we dont have direct comparisions because who would in their right mind have both a PPS and PWM lying around to test...?

Good idea. Would be very beneficial in stopping the constant bickering

[DaFish]

Originally Posted by Calvin@Vishnu

Please give the conspiracy theory a rest. It doesn't a fuel injection specialist to understand the benefits of treating methanol like a fuel (pwm metered via fuel injector based on boost, throttle angle, temp, etc,.) as apposed to just opening a floodgate via two state (0 or 100%) solenoid based upon boost. It works very. It doesn't do anything wrong. And consumes very little meth.

This week, we have two retrofit kits to install. Which means that they are coming in with PPS kits and leaving with PWM kits. Shiv has already talked with one of the owners in temporarily rigging it up so that both kits are installed in parallel and are switchable without much hassle. Perhaps those results will make some people happy. Or perhaps they will insist that they are rigged/unfair. At the end of the day, we have better things to do than try to convince people that the world isn't flat

I think this is all we have been asking for Calvin. If the results are what you say they are, then you better have lots of stock cause it will sell.

[DaFish]

Originally Posted by zsapphire7

sooo i actually happen to have the old PPS system in a box in my garage. i never got around to installing it because im too lazy and uninstall looks like a pain too.

But if someone really wants to do that for me then we can do back to back tests... i think its not unreasonable that we dont have direct comparisions because who would in their right mind have both a PPS and PWM lying around to test...?

on a pro car, with a pro driver - back to back tests ! This would be great.

I hope this happens.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Brey335i

Good idea. Would be very beneficial in stopping the constant bickering

I think this is the kind of thing that it's going to be hard to make the case for. You can have a poorly mapped PSO setup just as easily as you can have a poorly mapped PPS setup. You'd have to have someone who optimized both and frankly few of the PPS guys have even bothered to have their piggyback run the show yet. The PROcede isn't capable of running a high current PWM signal out and I doubt they would do the programming to have the PROcede interface a proper controller just for testing, seeing as they didn't even bother to do that with their old production kit.

Mike