[themyst]

Originally Posted by jdemetry

I think that unless you can verify same peak boost level, your test will not prove anything at all. I have seen a few logs that show Cobb pushing very high boost levels. As someone already mentioned, I believe Cobb targets load, not boost, and proceed trims boost when IAT are high. On a hod day, Cobb may actually increase boost while proceed lowers it. THis could matter a lot from a safety perspective, so be ready to put your flame suit on when you post your results if you don't have datalogs and a record of boost levels from your two runs.

Quite the opposite, the v4 autotune logic would increase boost in warmer weather. Other than that, you are correct.

[JaSSon]

Why would any tune increase boost in warmer weather temps? Seems like a recipe for disaster to me...

[jpsimon]

Originally Posted by themyst

Quite the opposite, the v4 autotune logic would increase boost in warmer weather. Other than that, you are correct.

The autotuning was based on a number of things, but in a vague nutshell it would target your set aggression level... that level was based on timing dropouts/iat/etc/etc... autotuning wouldn't just simply "raise boost in warm weather", that doesn't make sense at all. It would raise boost when the aggression level was lower than it's target.

In hot weather I would see boost drop (as it should, because it was too aggressive for the conditions) and then at night in cooler weather it would raise back up.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

The autotuning was based on a number of things, but in a vague nutshell it would target your set aggression level... that level was based on timing dropouts/iat/etc/etc... autotuning wouldn't just simply "raise boost in warm weather", that doesn't make sense at all. It would raise boost when the aggression level was lower than it's target.

In hot weather I would see boost drop (as it should, because it was too aggressive for the conditions) and then at night in cooler weather it would raise back up.

The density of the air is much lower in hot conditions hence why more boost is needed to hit a desired power target. This same logic applies in stock targeting via load index and in the jb3 indirectly because it used a multiplier off stock boost targets.

Being that the Procede and jb4 feature absolute boost targeting, they will suffer dramatically in hot conditions without changing boost targets manually. The v4 autotuning basically does what the stock dme/Cobb AP does in a slower more gradual manner.

Now, is load targeting perfect? No, IMO a ceiling should be implemented on both the cold and hot end of all possibilities, but it results in much more consistent results regardless of conditions.

FYI, I've seen boost autotune as low as 12 psi in the cold and as high as 15.6 in warm temps when I ran the Procede.

[jpsimon]

Originally Posted by themyst

The density of the air is much lower in hot conditions hence why more boost is needed to hit a desired power target.

yes I know, but the procede autotuning wasn't based on reaching a load target like the stock tune/flashes do - it was adjusting to get the aggression level to the desired point. In hot weather it would have to drop boost because it was too "aggressive", hotter IAT's, less dense air... more timing dropouts would occur at the higher boost levels.. so it would lower boost. Then in colder weather it would raise boost because the aggression level was lower than the desired target because IAT's were nice and cool, timing was strong with no dropouts.. so it would raise boost back up.

autotuning wasn't about targeting load, it was about the "max safe amount of power for the given conditions (set by your desired aggression level)"... if you will. Lower boost in shitty conditions, raise boost in good conditions.

[jpsimon]

That's also why if you put in some shitty gas autotune would lower boost... throw in some 100 octane and autotune would raise boost. It wouldn't DROP boost when you had high octane fuel, because aggression would be at almost 0. So it would decide to raise boost until the aggression was met (up to your set max-boost limit of course).

[themyst]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

yes I know, but the procede autotuning wasn't based on reaching a load target like the stock tune/flashes do - it was adjusting to get the aggression level to the desired point. In hot weather it would have to drop boost because it was too "aggressive", hotter IAT's, less dense air... more timing dropouts would occur at the higher boost levels.. so it would lower boost. Then in colder weather it would raise boost because the aggression level was lower than the desired target because IAT's were nice and cool, timing was strong with no dropouts.. so it would raise boost back up.

autotuning wasn't about targeting load, it was about the "max safe amount of power for the given conditions (set by your desired aggression level)"... if you will. Lowering boost when too hot, raising boost when it could given proper octane/good conditions.

The v4 autotuning is based off the same logic. As I stated before, boost INCREASES when hot and DECREASES when cold, similar to what load targeting does. The approach is different, but the outcome is similar. In every example I logged without meth, boost increases when hot and decreases when cold. Do a log when it's hot out then do one when it's extremely cold. Not sure if u have autotuning with the latest v5, but I've done extensive logging with my time on Procede.

I actually created a post in regards to this over the winter where your tuner of choice confirmed what I just said.

IMO there is nothing wrong with what the COBB AP does, as long as you're not severely past the efficiency range of the stock turbos which at 15-16 psi are not.

[themyst]

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=461792

Here's what I was referencing.

[mithiral67]

Originally Posted by themyst

The v4 autotuning basically does what the stock dme/Cobb AP does in a slower more gradual manner.

The stock/cobb uses predefined boost/timing tables to hit a desired load. Its sets a power ceiling that it will never exceed, only come down from when intake temps, octane, ect are not ideal. The procede’s auto tune has no ceiling. It will, depending on setting, increase boost and timing until it senses timing drops by the ecu and hold steady. This is in theory near the car and conditions max power considering its tuning method.

The flash/cobb is ideally, under proper conditions, never going to drop timing, however, if not tuned to the exact car and current conditions, it cant get max power. The procede will increase timing and boost to near max power, but does cause timing drops on the engine to learn this.

That’s why a procede will produce more power than a standard cob unit because it will reach for the ceiling on a car given the car and conditions.

The jb3 does something similar, but its not auto tune. It simply ramps up boost a ton, lets the ecu’s adaptation get knocked to hell and get timing inline with the boost the jb3 is running.

Hence with someone with fbo running cobb, then going to a procede that’s autotuning should see more power. It could in theory hit the same power level if the cobb, by chance, was actually tuned to the car and conditions max already.

I expect a slightly higher power level from the procede assuming conditions don’t suck, the tune provides good power across the bands and the driver is as on as he was previously.

Please correct any of my statements if you feel they are incorrect

[themyst]

Originally Posted by mithiral67

The stock/cobb uses predefined boost/timing tables to hit a desired load. Its sets a power ceiling that it will never exceed, only come down from when intake temps, octane, ect are not ideal. The procede’s auto tune has no ceiling. It will, depending on setting, increase boost and timing until it senses timing drops by the ecu and hold steady. This is in theory near the car and conditions max power considering its tuning method.

The flash/cobb is ideally, under proper conditions, never going to drop timing, however, if not tuned to the exact car and current conditions, it cant get max power. The procede will increase timing and boost to near max power, but does cause timing drops on the engine to learn this.

That’s why a procede will produce more power than a standard cob unit because it will reach for the ceiling on a car given the car and conditions.

The jb3 does something similar, but its not auto tune. It simply ramps up boost a ton, lets the ecu’s adaptation get knocked to hell and get timing inline with the boost the jb3 is running.

Hence with someone with fbo running cobb, then going to a procede that’s autotuning should see more power. It could in theory hit the same power level if the cobb, by chance, was actually tuned to the car and conditions max already.

I expect a slightly higher power level from the procede assuming conditions don’t suck, the tune provides good power across the bands and the driver is as on as he was previously.

Please correct any of my statements if you feel they are incorrect

You're wrong on many fronts, but I can't edit properly on my phone

[jpsimon]

again... procede autotune targets the 'aggression level', not load targets. If current aggression is lower than the target (due to high octane, or favorable conditions) it will make things more aggressive until it meets the desired aggression target. If your current aggression level is ABOVE the target (due to bad fuel, or poor conditions - ie... hot out) it will lower boost/ make things less aggressive to reach the desired target aggression level. It wouldn't just raise boost willy-nilly in warm weather.

Also, in extreme conditions the procede will lower boost for other reasons (fuel limitation, etc). from the thread you posted, shiv mentions extreme conditions on both ends where the procede will pull boost back:

When you see it go extremely hot or very cold, there are corrections that the Procede applies to keep the engine safe. By 70deg C, actual boost will be 3psi LESS than the nominal autotuned boost value. Similarly, when IAT is 0deg C (32deg F), actual boost will be 1psi below. By -10deg C, it will be 4psi below.

So if your operational IAT temps fall into these two extremes, don't be surprised if you see a condition where your aggression level is lower than your aggression target and yet actual boost has not maxed out at your boost limit (ie, 17psi).

Originally Posted by themyst

The v4 autotuning is based off the same logic. As I stated before, boost INCREASES when hot and DECREASES when cold, similar to what load targeting does. The approach is different, but the outcome is similar. In every example I logged without meth, boost increases when hot and decreases when cold. Do a log when it's hot out then do one when it's extremely cold. Not sure if u have autotuning with the latest v5, but I've done extensive logging with my time on Procede.

I actually created a post in regards to this over the winter where your tuner of choice confirmed what I just said.

IMO there is nothing wrong with what the COBB AP does, as long as you're not severely past the efficiency range of the stock turbos which at 15-16 psi are not.

[themyst]

For the third time, I am not saying aggression is load targeting, I am saying they produce the similar results albeit at differing correction speeds on pump gas.

How about my aggression hitting 0.2 in the summer months yet go into the 4s in cold weather ON meth at the same boost?

On pump my aggression is in the 6s in the winter at 12 psi, yet in the 1.7 range at 15.6 psi in the summer.

Sounds a lot like they achieve a similar result, doesn't it?

The difference is autotune has a user-adjustable ceiling (boost limit) whereas load targeting does not. Not that it's quite necessary for a stage 1 tune though

[FedeM]

If you run good maps and settings on PROcede, there's no way for COBB.

[mithiral67]

Originally Posted by themyst

You're wrong on many fronts, but I can't edit properly on my phone

Please do so when you have time, I would like to learn were my understanding is incorrect.

[jpsimon]

I personally never experienced anything like that. It worked as I described on my car... in cooler weather or with higher octane fuel aggression would drop to 0 then boost/timing would get more aggressive and the aggression level would raise up until it leveled out at 2. In the summer months it would lower boost during the day when it was hot out because it was too aggressive in the heat.

They aren't similar because if you put in higher octane the procede would raise boost (up until your boost-max), load-based tunes like cobb with one set target wouldn't keep raising boost - it would most likely lower boost because it would be easier to reach that target. The procede will see greater benefits with it's autotune vs. one with set load target (i'm talking about cobb stage 1 tune of course)

Originally Posted by themyst

How about my aggression hitting 0.2 in the summer months yet go into the 4s in cold weather ON meth at the same boost?

[themyst]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

I personally never experienced anything like that. It worked as I described on my car... in cooler weather or with higher octane fuel aggression would drop to 0 then boost/timing would get more aggressive and the aggression level would raise up until it leveled out at 2. In the summer months it would lower boost during the day when it was hot out because it was too aggressive in the heat.

They aren't similar because if you put in higher octane the procede would raise boost (up until your boost-max), load-based tunes like cobb with one set target wouldn't keep raising boost. The procede will see greater benefits with it's autotune vs. one with set load target (i'm talking about cobb stage 1 tune of course)

Your car must be special then, because everyone else experiences the opposite of what you are experiencing. Also keep in mind, the Procede has boost reduction in place for frigid IATs; I wonder why that is. Ask Shiv if you don't believe me.

I think we are discussing two different situations though. Yes the Procede autotune will likely make more power than the Cobb stg1 when octane is added since you can reduce CPS offset, what I am talking about is in equal situations (on pump gas) they'd have a similar result... At least in my experience.

Back on topic, if the OP doesn't tell us what boost levels he's targeting on the Procede this whole thread is worthless. He has a v5 enthusiast on older maps so he doesn't have autotune

[secretsquirrel]

All other things being equal, the Procede will lower boost in very hot weather.
All other things being equal, the Procede will raise boost in cooler weather.

from what I understand:
All other things being equal, Cobb will raise boost in hot weather.
All other things being equal, Cobb will low boost in cold weather.

[jpsimon]

In hot weather, higher boost was too aggressive... timing dropouts would occur.... aggression would raise above the target, and so boost would decrease (and then aggression would follow till it met the target). That's how it was supposed to work, and that's how it worked on my car.


I know all about the cool weather My car has seen many below 0°f days in northern VT etc. I'm not talking about the extreme weather conditions (i even quoted shivs post talking about the extreme temp stuff).

Originally Posted by themyst

Your car must be special then, because everyone else experiences the opposite of what you are experiencing. Also keep in mind, the Procede has boost reduction in place for frigid IATs; I wonder why that is. Ask Shiv if you don't believe me.

I think we are discussing two different situations though. Yes the Procede autotune will likely make more power than the Cobb stg1 when octane is added since you can reduce CPS offset, what I am talking about is in equal situations (on pump gas) they'd have a similar result... At least in my experience.

Back on topic, if the OP doesn't tell us what boost levels he's targeting on the Procede this whole thread is worthless. He has a v5 enthusiast on older maps so he doesn't have autotune

[themyst]

By jps logic, two cars, one with a Procede with autotune and one with a Cobb AP in hot weather, the Cobb car will be faster. I assure you that's not the case.

Unless our definitions of cold weather differ? My definition of cold weather is 30-40 degrees.

Problem is the OP doesn't have autotune so this is just pointless bickering tell us what UT setting you'll run and I'll tell u who I think will win

[jpsimon]

You're misunderstanding me. but this is pointless anyways like you said.. we can agree about that at least

Originally Posted by themyst

By jps logic, two cars, one with a Procede with autotune and one with a Cobb AP in hot weather, the Cobb car will be faster. I assure you that's not the case.

Unless our definitions of cold weather differ? My definition of cold weather is 30-40 degrees.

Problem is the OP doesn't have autotune so this is just pointless bickering tell us what UT setting you'll run and I'll tell u who I think will win

[dyezak]

Can an admin shut this topic down? This has moved so far off my original topic it's not funny. If you want to argue about how the Procede works go elsewhere.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

All I have to say is those maps and default settings on map 1 are not the optimal choice for drag racing on the PROcede.

I would switch to 12-17 Maps and run the intended boost for your application via user adjustables.

With Full Bolt ons you can run 15 PSI with minimal ignition correction.

Edit- The 1-24 maps I dont believe use autotune which is why I recommend the 12-17 maps. They are stronger maps, with autotune functioning.

Running defualt map 1 settings would be a waste of your time. Just some friendly advice.