[ibd12nv]

Could we please stay on the 335i. I can appreciate the Corvette info only if it applies to the BMW.
I'm really trying to learn something here but it's hard to follow when it jumps around.
Dr Domer, well stated post. I commend you.
OK SHIV back to the subject...

[DrDomer]

In addition, I'm sure Shiv had to deal with these kinds of questions in Evo forums a ways back, and now he has to deal with them again here in BMW-land. We appreciate his patience, and hope to learn something.

I also should mention there have been threads on transmission and drivetrain durability and the drivetrain's ability to handle the increased torque. Those issues are also a concern, but somewhat different than engine reliability issues.

Not sure what is more concerning between engine and drivetrain (i.e. important...). I don't want this to turn into a doom and gloom thread. I don't expect the Procede to cause my engine to explode. I wouldn't have ordered it. I just want to be an informed consumer.

I was hoping to focus on the engine, but am willing to listen to a drivetrain discussion if that is really what we should be thinking of when discussing reliability.

[bmwzimmer]

I don't know what the exact equation is but 12 hours of endurace Racing is like putting as much wear and tear damage as 75-100K miles on a normally driven car.
I think for the Lemann's 24 hour race, they say it's as brutal as putting 150-200K miles on a normally driven car... You need to rebuilt or replace the engine after such abuse for the next race....

[BMW_drei]

Speaking academically, my curiousity about the Corvette stems from my interest in comparing different design choices, since all engineers are trying to solve the same puzzles -- those decisions typically point towards, or shed light on possible shortcomings (or trade-offs) of the design. Since mechanical limitations can be accounted for by a good controller, changing the controller can unmask the limits.

I applaude Shiv for being as open about his design as he's been -- it's refreshing with all the blank stares BMW has been giving us on the oil cooler and fuel pump issues. It also indicates he's asked all these questions himself as he was doing the development.

I'll bet BMW doesn't actually know the life limit of the 335 (engine and driveline), they'll be estimating it based on past experience and testing that is (by nature) limited in scope. But if they're smart, they'll be looking at the customer base to prove their assumptions -- particularly those who push the power up (Alpina included).

Speaking as a reliability analyst (part of my professional experience), some of these discussions inevitably sound like "doom and gloom", when they are really an effort to objectively evaluate the limits of the design -- we're talking about our beloved cars dying, after all. Since I'm not an automotive engineer, I'm using these discussions to help reverse-engineer the reliability analysis of others. Power mods like the Procede (and others) amount to an "accelerated life test", which can be incredibly useful to designers.

Since the operating conditions are vastly different, I'm thinking about the system in the following critical parts:
1) Core engine, incl. head (basically the stationary mechanical "block") subjected to heat and higher combustion pressures.
2) Cooling circuits (mainly oil), particularly for the turbos
3) Engine rotating components (higher temperatures/pressures)
4) Transmission (for manuals, incl. clutch although I have a STEP)
5) Driveline (after transmission), mainly higher torques.
6) Miscellaneous others (injectors, spark plugs, valvetrain, emissions)

[DrDomer]

This is certainly reassuring, and I should've looked at it before I started this thread. I have included it here for those who may have missed it. It seems the enemy of reliability in Shiv's mind is exhaust temp. Anyone care to comment? Thanks again to all those who contributed so far.

Thanks for all the kind words guys! It's wonderful to see all the development time and effort we put in to the PROcede pay off big time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Merli
So was this the BASE (out of the box) Proceed map, without individual tuning? Or was the Proceed tuned specifically for these two race cars and their modifications?

If they were tuned specifically for these cars, I'm not sure how relevant the results are for the normal Proceed customer, other than to show that a 335i with intake, exhaust, boost, oil cooler and a properly tuned ECU (from ANY tuner) can handle the abuse of a competitive 12-hour race (which is a fantastic testament to the 335i's abilities!)...

If this was a base tune Proceed install, then this is an AMAZING result for Vishnu Tuning.

It was a base Stg 0 map. v1.3 to be exact. Only change was boost was dropped by a 1psi in the 2500-4000rpm range due to rules regarding max boost. The only other power-related mod on the cars were a full exhaust.
Stock intake. Stock bypass valves. Stock intercooler. Stock fuel pump. Etc,.
The car ran peak of 0.8bar, or 11.8psi. For 12hrs

On the dyno, they picked up 50kW (67whp) over stock. It also ran on 98RON or the equivalent of the 93-94oct we get here in the US. The results are about as realworld as we can get. That is why we are so thrilled with the results because it means that our convservatism and tuning strategy paid off.

Our #1 concern wasn't oil temp. It was exhaust temp under sustained load conditions. We were very very worried about those tiny turbos. Mitusbishi turbos aren't known for their ability to handle sustained loads. Especially the little ones (low thermal mass and high rotating speeds). We did everything we could to keep the combustion temps cool as possible. This meant running the cars just as rich as we do in customer cars. This was a concern for the racers that wanted to minimize fuel consumption to avoid
unnecessary fueling stops. We basically told them, "Look... if you don't run these cars rich, especially in the midrange where all that torque is, something will break and you wont finish the race." The agreed and drove the living piss out of the car. I believe Gary set the track record during practice the day prior to the race.

Cheers,
shiv

[j|rz44]

yeah it is....
buy one!

[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by jmramos44

yeah it is....
buy one!

Already paid for. Waiting for delivery this week.

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

This is certainly reassuring, and I should've looked at it before I started this thread. I have included it here for those who may have missed it. It seems the enemy of reliability in Shiv's mind is exhaust temp. Anyone care to comment? Thanks again to all those who contributed so far.

There is a good correlation between EGT and engine life, and it would be interesting to see the EGT numbers of a stock 335 vs. a PROceded 335. Do they run EGT gauges on those race cars?

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

Do you think that the design of that car took reliability into account? If so, you're saying the HP and TQ gains are similar to those of the Procede so if you stay in that ballpark you should have better reliability? Seems simplistic, but I'm the least knowledgeable here.

It's a bit different. Alpina usually investiagtes a lot in engine development, always respecting the overall capabilities of the car. They modify the engine's hardware and develop/provide software for it. Alpina is an undependent brand and warrants their cars by themselves. They are a very exclusive manufacturer, use the BMW platform and perform outstanding testing on their products. Gearboxes / steptronic, drivetrains normally remain untouched. Sometimes they build a car you cannot configure @ BMW AG. Example: Z8 with steptronic. They tuned the v8 4.4i engine to keep everything reliable. Result has been comparable to the e39 M5 engine, normally used in the Z8. One evolution of this engine we see as of today is the BMW's actual v8 4.8i. / v8 5.0i. Everybody who wanted a Z8 AT, bought the Alpina . You can count on Alpina quality ( and numbers ). BTW, they won't tune your car. If you like Alpina you have to buy the whole car

As Alpina, Vishnu's PROcede is outstanding, the best concept, platform and implementation as well. Huge development and integration efforts. Competence ( my thought ). Providing different, maintained maps, when customers like . I would like a map keeping the engine on the cool side, power gains comparable with Alpina, seriously beeing developed. I would pay for it. Just to feel more comfortable with my brand new e93 steptronic in mid. of May. Pretty sure to be not the only one.

Cheers
Eugen

[chris_1001]

I would love to put one on my car, but I think I'll wait a bit and see if anyone has any issues...

I saw so many turbo issues in the late 80's early 90's I'm still a bit leary to over tax them or the rest of the car... But I'd love the extra power...

What to do, what to do...

[bmwzimmer]

Hey, you only live once so just do it!!!

[bmwzimmer]

Originally Posted by eugen.niederreiter

It's a bit the other way round. Alpina usualy investiagtes a lot in engine development, always respecting the overall capabilities of the car. Alpina is an undependent brand and warrants their cars by themselves. They are a very exclusive ( BMW ) manufacturer and perform outstanding testing of their products. Gearboxes / steptronic, drivetrains usualy remain untouched. Sometimes they build a car you cannot configure @ BMW AG ( example: Z8 with steptronic, here they slightly reduced the power of the e39 M5 engine to keep everything reliable ). Everybody who wanted a Z8 AT, bought the Alpina . You can count on Alpina quality ( and numbers ). BTW, they won't tune your car. If you like Alpina you have to buy the whole car

As Alpina, Vishnu's PROcede is outstanding, the best concept, platform and implementation ( my thought ). With different, maintained maps, when customers like . I would like a map keeping the engine on the cool side, power gains comparable with Alpina. I would pay for it. Just to feel more comfortable with my brand new e93 steptronic in mid. of May.

Cheers
Eugen

A low output map is available. I think you only get additional 20hp and 50 tq. Not sure but it is definitely available... I read it somwehre on vishnu's website.

[bnj]

Originally Posted by bmwzimmer

A low output map is available. I think you only get additional 20hp and 50 tq. Not sure but it is definitely available... I read it somwehre on vishnu's website.

Eugen, to whom you replied, mentioned it earlier in this thread. He said he is not interested in it... Who would be, when you can have a cool map cool in more than one way

[e.n335]

If have the map. Output too low. Please read my post above ( edited ).

Thx
Eugen

[bnj]

Originally Posted by eugen.niederreiter

...I understand, that a tuning company has to show big gains in hp and torque. But why not as an option ? If Vishnu would provide "racing" maps ( boost 12.5 psi or more, corresponding to the current maps ) AND "street" maps ( max. boost 11.5 psi, like used in Bathurst ), the customers would have the choice what they want to do with their cars. Not everybody is interested in huge gains. Big gains and other pro's of the PROcede are more than enough for me.
...
Cheers
Eugen

Generally the "race" and "street" maps are named just like that. The aggressive map is "race". However, in street you one can use easily as aggressive map as in race (if not even more aggressive) because the car is not abused like 12 hours in a row.

[e.n335]

@ bnj:

discussing about reliability my points are:

- reliability baseline / reference ( example has been Alpina, not the worst decision )
- provider
- equivalent power gains
- technology used
- reliability relative to baseline

Mabye I don't get you ?

Cheers
Eugen



thx & stay tuned !

[bnj]

Originally Posted by eugen.niederreiter

In general, as long as the engine power output does not exceed the numbers of the new BMW Alpina 335i, I am not concerned about other parts than the engine ...

The same transmission is used in 550i which has even more power & torque than Alpina 335i (albeit slightly). However, Vishnu stage0 and stage1 have even more torque. There might be a theorethical chance to break something by abusing the car purposefully doing continuous 6th gear accelerations from 1250 rpm.

In practice, the tuning level 335i has reached so far is very very safe. Too safe

[bnj]

Originally Posted by eugen.niederreiter

@ bnj:

discussing about reliability my points are:

- reliability baseline / reference ( example has been Alpina, not the worst decision )
- provider
- equivalent power gains
- technology used
- reliability relative to baseline

Mabye I don't get you ?

Cheers
Eugen



thx & stay tuned !

That's all clear and understandable.
And I was merely saying that in street one could use as aggressive map as in race, because the reliability problems would emerge in racing where the cars are abused many hours in a row, rather than having reliability problems just driving in the streets.
Cheers!