[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by Sleeper

My goodness, you are such a Dinan nutswinger. Anytime the name Dinan is even breathed around here, you pop out from under your rock to defend the name like it was your father's. Anyway...

If ya want to call me the Dinan online batman then sure why not I give props where it is due. Its not the thought of defending the name, its the thought of defending the truth in their products

Originally Posted by Sleeper

How does that have any relevance at all to what we're talking about.

You can mod a Benz, Porsche, Nissan, Subaru, Honda, Kia, John Deere lawnmower etc etc cheaply with less prestigious (so to speak) brands; or, you can spend much more on supposedly higher quality, name brand parts. Doesn't matter what vehicle you drive, the same principle applies.

I'll dumb it down further -
On a 335i, you can get a $450 set of downpipes; or you can get a $1,000 set of downpipes. Both parts are going on BMW's that cost the same from the factory. One part is cheap, the other is expensive.

The relevance in matter is a BMW should be catagorized with Merc, Porsche etc, not with Honda, Kia, Ford, Hundai etc rice burner cars or treated in the like mod upgrade manner

The attitude seems to be mostly plagued with BMW owners whereas cheap overides quality, cheap = the best, cheap = safety, cheap = balance, cheap = proportionate

And you made my point, if you want better quality then you'll have to pay more. The key word in youe statement "supposedly" is because you have no clue about quality.

Originally Posted by Sleeper

Same fruit. By the way, it's 'rhetoric'.

Oops sorry, I only have 3 fingers......JJ

Originally Posted by Sleeper

If you want to talk tunes, Dinan is the most expensive, has the least amount of room to move forward with different stages, has the least flexibility in terms of what parts you can use (to maintain the warranty substitution), and doesn't have the ongoing R&D that the other tune options do. The power output also leaves a lot to be desired.

I would agree with most of this on the tunning software aspect. Here is a prime example of engineering, quality and reliability. Find me a tune that can do ET 12.5 in a 1/4 mile on just 14 PSI, and FMIC, no DPs, no race gas, no meth, no weight reduction.

Dinan was able to engineer a tune to use "less power" to achieve results that other tunes need MORE POWER to achieve

Originally Posted by Sleeper

If you want to talk parts, again, Dinan is more expensive for the same thing. The Dinan FMIC is a rebranded Spearco. Does that merit it being one of the most, or the most expensive FMIC on the market? I would argue that it wouldn't.

Thanks for mentioning Dinan FMIC is a rebranded Spearco product. Spearco is renoun in their quality and performance. Not just did Dinan rebrand the Spearco product they modifed it to a better performing product.

1. more presure drop
2. more volume
3. added four corner air scoops

Go look up what the price difference between the old Spearco and the Dinan modified version

Originally Posted by Sleeper

A $1,300 intake? Come on.

Carbon Fiber....never knew carbon fiber was cheap. Btw Dinan has the cheapest Carbon Fiber "COLD" Air Intake on the market. Can you find me something cheaper with better CF quality ?

Originally Posted by Sleeper

An $1,800 FFE? AE's exhaust is very high quality with precise fit and high quality construction - it also has dyno proven gains. It retails for around $1,800 too. Dinan's axleback exhaust is the same price, provides 0 HP but likely has very good fit and construction.

Like I said you have no clue what you are talking about. I had the Dinan FFE installed on my car before it left the dealer. 3 days after I raced another 335is, same stock tune, same stock everything except exhaust, and I pulled away from him everytime.

1. The FFE is 100 % Stainless Steel
2. extremely Light ie lightest axle back on the market
3. is one of the top best sounding exhausts in the market

Originally Posted by Sleeper

I could go on, but my point is that Dinan's parts with or without the tune aren't any better than less expensive parts. The premium for Dinan's warranty is ridiculous. Same performing parts, weaker tune, all much more expensive.

I am still hearing r*h*e*t*o*r*i*c. I have produced plenty of specs and you have produced nothing but talk

Originally Posted by Sleeper

You sit back with less power and a deeper hole in your pocket.

Yes look at my sig...less power used to achieve numbers with less effort compared to other tunes that need more power to get.

Btw those of us that can afford Dinan it should not have even dented our pockets because we can clearly afford it. Being able to afford something does not mean it puts a deeper whole in anyones pocket. Per haps you need to cheack your pockets.

Originally Posted by Sleeper

No warranty if you do decide to deviate from the Dinan route and put on other brand parts.

At least we get a warranty, right ? What warranty does other tunners give you ?

Originally Posted by Sleeper

When you do switch engine management software, you're spending more again.

If we can afford Dinan then that is not an issue for us

Originally Posted by Sleeper

Meanwhile, I'm running Cobb Stage 2+ (parts and software) for just over what the Stage 3 Dinan software costs... and I'm making way more power . And even more yet when we can start getting Protunes.

Being that you make all that power whats your 1/4 mile time ?

Originally Posted by Sleeper

To you and all others with Dinan software and parts, I'm not trying to discredit the brand or the decision to go with Dinan.

Your flaming is evident from your first post on this thread

Originally Posted by Sleeper

BuraQ just thinks Dinan is an offshoot of God's left hand, so I took exception

Thats where you have BuraQ wrong. When you start to flame, which is obvious from your first post, what did you expect BuraQ to do, get slapped and not slapped back ?

[RoundelM3]

Originally Posted by Sleeper

Dinan:
Most expensive, lowest performing tune.
Most expensive, equivalent performing (maybe) parts.
Limited stage increases.
Limited R&D on current tunes.
No warranty if you do decide to deviate from the Dinan route and put on other brand parts.
When you do switch engine management software, you're spending more again.

And now I'll take exception to your rhetoric. First of all, on what basis do you determine that Dinan is the "lowest performing tune"? Got some dyno results to back that up? How about the latest BMW "power pack" which only adds 20 HP? Same with your "most expensive, equivalent performing (maybe) parts"...on what factual information do you base your statement? Again, on "limited stage increases", you have a choice of 3. And exactly what does "Limited R&D on current tunes" mean? Also, are you absolutely sure that you can't get warranty on S3 if you use an equivalent FMIC and OC? Did you ask? And is $400 for switching from S1 to S2 or S2 to S3 really "spending more"? More than what? Again, warranty factors in here. Can you buy aftermarket parts for your BMW that are cheaper than BMW Performance parts? Sure...are they as good or better? Maybe

Nobody else but Dinan offers a parallel warranty with their parts. If I were buying a new 335is, I'd rather put Dinan parts on and keep my warranty than try to deceive the dealership with the cheap stuff. It all boils down to what you feel comfortable with. Some folks prefer quality over price, and as I mentioned in a previous response, you can buy used Dinan parts right here on this Forum for a lot less than the list price. Best advice I can give is "don't knock it unless you've tried it".

[Sleeper]

Originally Posted by BuraQ

The relevance in matter is a BMW should be catagorized with Merc, Porsche etc, not with Honda, Kia, Ford, Hundai etc rice burner cars or treated in the like mod upgrade manner

What? "In the like mod upgrade manner"? Please argue in English.

Originally Posted by BuraQ

The attitude seems to be mostly plagued with BMW owners whereas cheap overides quality, cheap = the best, cheap = safety, cheap = balance, cheap = proportionate

And you made my point, if you want better quality then you'll have to pay more. The key word in youe statement "supposedly" is because you have no clue about quality.

So Helix, ER, ETS, and HPF are not quality intercoolers? Dinan's Spearco is the best quality hence the most expensive? Just because they added corner scoops? No. (Ps. You want less pressure drop, not more haha)

Carrying on, are AE, HPF, Vanguard etc. not quality exhausts? Just curious because they're all less expensive than the equivalent Dinan parts. I guess that means Dinan is the only company that makes quality parts that are the 'best, the safest, the most balanced, and the most proportionate?' (WTF does all that even mean??) Come on man, take off the blinders. Dinan's parts are good, but they're not "the best." You're paying more for equivalent quality.

Originally Posted by BuraQ

I would agree with most of this on the tunning software aspect. Here is a prime example of engineering, quality and reliability. Find me a tune that can do ET 12.5 in a 1/4 mile on just 14 PSI, and FMIC, no DPs, no race gas, no meth, no weight reduction.

There's no magic in tuning. Each tuner has to adjust the same parameters. Dinan, by means of its warranty transfer, has to be more conservative.

Originally Posted by BuraQ

Dinan was able to engineer a tune to use "less power" to achieve results that other tunes need MORE POWER to achieve

All things equal, this would defy the laws of physics.

All things equal (same weight, same parts, same engine in the same state of repair and same driver) aside from horsepower means the car with less horsepower will always be slower.

Originally Posted by BuraQ

Carbon Fiber....never knew carbon fiber was cheap. Btw Dinan has the cheapest Carbon Fiber "COLD" Air Intake on the market. Can you find me something cheaper with better CF quality ?

Like I said you have no clue what you are talking about. I had the Dinan FFE installed on my car before it left the dealer. 3 days after I raced another 335is, same stock tune, same stock everything except exhaust, and I pulled away from him everytime.

1. The FFE is 100 % Stainless Steel
2. extremely Light ie lightest axle back on the market
3. is one of the top best sounding exhausts in the market

So now we're talking aesthetics? I thought we were talking strictly about performance and $/HP. I didn't realize carbon fiber, being so beautiful, was such a great performer. Maybe because it shaves a couple ounces off a regular intake? Must be why it's so expensive haha. And good thing you added your subjective opinion that the exhaust is one of the 'top best' sounding. Jesus.

I'd love to see how adding 2 feet of piping and a muffler to the very end of an exhaust stream will increase HP.

From Dinan's site -
Max HP gain - 6HP at 6600RPM
Max TQ gain - 5 FT-LB at 6600RPM


Is that even at the wheels? That increase must be why you pulled on that other car.

Originally Posted by BuraQ

I am still hearing r*h*e*t*o*r*i*c. I have produced plenty of specs and you have produced nothing but talk

What specs have you provided? One quarter mile time? Essentially, you're saying that everything but Dinan is lower quality, and they're able to produce better performance numbers with less horsepower.

Originally Posted by BuraQ

Btw those of us that can afford Dinan it should not have even dented our pockets because we can clearly afford it. Being able to afford something does not mean it puts a deeper whole in anyones pocket. Per haps you need to cheack your pockets.

A $1,000 payment is still $1,000 whether you're Bill Gates or a high school student. Again, that isn't an argument. We're talking performance per dollar here, not about being able to afford something or not.

Originally Posted by BuraQ

At least we get a warranty, right ? What warranty does other tunners give you ?

And the gist of this argument: why do you think you get warranty? Because you pay more for it, not because the parts and tuning are God's gift to BMW.

Originally Posted by BuraQ

Your flaming is evident from your first post on this thread

Thats where you have BuraQ wrong. When you start to flame, which is obvious from your first post, what did you expect BuraQ to do, get slapped and not slapped back ?

How am I flaming? Fact: you can spend a lot less, make more power, and have high quality parts on your 335 without having a single Dinan part on your car. How is that flaming? Am I wrong?

I do appreciate the quality of Dinan's parts - there are solid reasons to go with Dinan. That said, your arguments supporting them are just plain dumb and fanboy'ish. And speaking in the third person doesn't help.

I'm done arguing with you. I've made my point, you've tried to make yours. Plus I can tell you got tired out since your grammar was starting to completely fall apart at the end.

I'm sure everyone else reading this wants both of us to STFU too lol... so that's it for me. I'll let you have the last say.

Originally Posted by roundel335

And now I'll take exception to your rhetoric. First of all, on what basis do you determine that Dinan is the "lowest performing tune"? Got some dyno results to back that up? How about the latest BMW "power pack" which only adds 20 HP? Same with your "most expensive, equivalent performing (maybe) parts"...on what factual information do you base your statement? Again, on "limited stage increases", you have a choice of 3. And exactly what does "Limited R&D on current tunes" mean? Also, are you absolutely sure that you can't get warranty on S3 if you use an equivalent FMIC and OC? Did you ask? And is $400 for switching from S1 to S2 or S2 to S3 really "spending more"? More than what? Again, warranty factors in here. Can you buy aftermarket parts for your BMW that are cheaper than BMW Performance parts? Sure...are they as good or better? Maybe

Nobody else but Dinan offers a parallel warranty with their parts. If I were buying a new 335is, I'd rather put Dinan parts on and keep my warranty than try to deceive the dealership with the cheap stuff. It all boils down to what you feel comfortable with. Some folks prefer quality over price, and as I mentioned in a previous response, you can buy used Dinan parts right here on this Forum for a lot less than the list price. Best advice I can give is "don't knock it unless you've tried it".

You know I'm referring to the current established tuning companies - Cobb, Burger Tuning, Shiv and Dinan. Not the BMW 'power pack'.

I'm not going to start researching graphs at this point, but do you really think Dinan power numbers are equivalent to the other tunes, stage for stage/map for map? If that was the case, why would the general consensus on here be away from Dinan? Ruling out the cost factor, reason suggests it's because of the weaker performance numbers.

As for parts, 5HP/6TQ doesn't equate to a very performance inspired exhaust. A rebranded Spearco FMIC with a few modifications doesn't allow it to carry one of the highest FMIC prices. The intake, despite the CF, doesn't give the greatest gains when compared to a DCI or a true CAI. Granted, I should have said "more" expensive, not "most."

And yes, spending $400 per Stage upgrade is spending more. For Cobb, it's free. As far as I know, for every other tune, it is too.

As far as R&D goes, I don't see Dinan's presence on the forums like Cobb, Shiv, or BMS. I see the latter three constantly making improvements and sharing developments with the community. Maybe Dinan is still working on its tunes, but I have yet to see a 1,000 post topic on the latest Dinan developments. Have Dinan unlocked the fueling limit issue like Cobb recently has? Is there a need based on what Dinan has and plans to offer?

As for your last paragraph, I completely agree that it all boils down to people's comfort levels. You pay more for warranty - that comes from the higher cost for parts and more conservative tuning. That's 100% fine... and I understand if people go that route. I just take exception to the other guy's comments for reasons stated above.

[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by Sleeper

I'm done arguing with you. I've made my point, you've tried to make yours. Plus I can tell you got tired out since your grammar was starting to completely fall apart at the end.

Debating online while at work will screw up anyone's grammar when your rushing to write a damn book in replies, and then doing back flip screen rolls so no one sees you from behind.

Originally Posted by Sleeper

So Helix, ER, ETS, and HPF are not quality intercoolers?

You misunderstood me. These develope well respected products. It all comes down to who has the better product for the best price, and of course you cannot have the best of the best and expect it to be cheap. Even HPF rated Spearco as the best of the best

Spearco Intercoolers

Want the best of the best? Well here it is! Spearco is known worldwide for their high quality intercooler kits. There are many companies that try to mimic Spearco's designs, but very few that can offer the performance levels to match these units. If you don't believe us, ask around!

Source

This doesnt mean that HPF is saying that their own FMIC is not quality rated.

Originally Posted by Sleeper

Dinan's Spearco is the best quality hence the most expensive? Just because they added corner scoops? No. (Ps. You want less pressure drop, not more haha)

Dinan's FMIC is based on Spearco's quality and W.A.V.E. Technology core. Spearco FMIC comes with a heavy price ($1100 - $1400) based on their technology and quality.

Dinan added four corner scoops to trap and force air through the heat exchange cores.

They raised the original Spearco pressure drop from 0.2 psi to 0.7 psi for better heat transfer.

0.2 allows more air, with less restriction, to pass into the intake manifold but at higher tempertures.

0.7 allows less air, for better heat transfer coefficient, to pass into the intake manifold at "lower" tempertures

As long as the pressure drop is below 1.0 it is acceptable. It all matters on what you want, lower temps or more air into the intake manifold

[BEAR-AvHistory]

^^^^

I don't know if its the same unit as Dinan but the Spearco's 25F rise was behind both AMS 22F & Helix 8F in a 2-3-4 pull test by dzenno @14psi in the ic thread you posted to on the other site.