[jlstyle]

Originally Posted by Vanity

Wrong. A man crawling on the floor, already DISARMED by an officer, and wounded from 6 shots is NOT a threat to at least the 7 surrounding police officers. The officer was told to HOLD FIRE from another officer, but still shot. The officer who called to Hold Fire was doing the right thing, however the officer who murdered him should be jailed. And I'm sorry but the bolded sentence is ridiculous. What was he going to suddenly do to finish the cop? No weapon, No strength (clearly he's on his hands and knees and wounded). What were the cops afraid of? Him Barking?

If 7 cops can't restrain a man who's been shot 6 times, disarmed, and crawling on the floor, then don't be a cop. Simple as that. The fact is that the cop is defending himself with "unintentional blindness", saying that he did not know the victim was disarmed and shot him. Bullshit, he clearly was instructed to hold fire and clearly the man was disarmed (look at video). If this excuse gets passed through our courts as viable, then a cop can "shoot first and ask questions later". Far beyond what your argument is saying here. This is NOT a "he threatened my fellow officer, I'm going to gun him down 8 times while 7 officers watch me". That's not how our police force is meant to protect. And if you think this is standard protocol for self-defense, please accompany yourself with how third-world police officers perform their duty.

I'm curious to know what you would say if that "INNOCENT" cop was killed right after the initial strike.

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by jlstyle

Just like many other crazy killers out there who kills people because of their mental illness?
His mental illness doesn't justify what he did.

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

At the time, did the cops KNOW he had bipolar disorder? Probably not. They are not mind readers. It's threatening enough to swing a metal chain with a heavy padlock on the end of it at a cop, that alone would (justifiably) get you shot in a lot of places. However, once you actually strike a cop, in the side of the head, with something that could kill with 1 blow, then all bets are off, dead man walking at that point.

He advances after being shot, but I personally would not assume the threat is over. There are all kinds of drugs out there that would cause a person to not feel pain, and even though they are full of lead, they could still be physically capable of causing me more harm in the short time they have left, especially since they have demonstrated crazy dangerous behaviour already.

I'm not saying there are not bad cops who are a danger to law-abiding citizens, but I'm not convinced these are examples of that, given the back story.

Note to self: dont strike cop in the side of the head with a metal chain with a lock on the end of it, as doing so may drastically affect life expectancy.

I'm not saying the mental illness justifies what he did because it certainly doesn't. I would also agree that the police most likely had no clue he was bipolar at the time of confrontation. All I'm wondering is, wouldn't knowing the fact that he is bipolar be important information for the investigation afterwards?

[Templar]

Originally Posted by Vanity

^
+1, Very good find.

It's not a good find IMO... How does that apply here? The assailant was still advancing on the officers, injured or not. Failure to comply with a lawful order aside, advancing on them still was still a display of a possible threat. Now if the video had captured him screaming "please help me, help me" as he was crawling, then maybe this would apply.

On a side note, I really like how people who have never been put in a life-threatening situation in their entire lives pretend like they know exactly how they would act... You have no idea how your emotions will wind up controlling your actions instead of your logic, no idea at all...

[import36]

Originally Posted by Templar

It's not a good find IMO... How does that apply here? The assailant was still advancing on the officers, injured or not. Failure to comply with a lawful order aside, advancing on them still was still a display of a possible threat. Now if the video had captured him screaming "please help me, help me" as he was crawling, then maybe this would apply.

On a side note, I really like how people who have never been put in a life-threatening situation in their entire lives pretend like they know exactly how they would act... You have no idea how your emotions will wind up controlling your actions instead of your logic, no idea at all...

bingo. with the adrenaline, emotions, etc. in such a high stress/tense situation...very difficult to place yourself into that position and predict what you would've done given the circumstances. in my mind...not sure how close i'd want to get to a suspect that has been shot 6 times and is still coming forward.

[MiddleAgedAl]

Originally Posted by JasonCSU

All I'm wondering is, wouldn't knowing the fact that he is bipolar be important information for the investigation afterwards?

I agree that it would be relevant as far as establishing motive for his actions. It would explain what he did, without excusing what he did.

I would hope that it would not have more impact than that, unless they could prove the cop knew about the bipolar disorder in advance.

Although, even if he did know that, what action should he have taken differently ? The fact remains that a chain to the side of your head can leave you just as dead when delivered by a crazy person who cant control themselves, as it can when delivered by a sane person who knows exactly what they are doing.

[Vanity]

Originally Posted by Templar

It's not a good find IMO... How does that apply here? The assailant was still advancing on the officers, injured or not. Failure to comply with a lawful order aside, advancing on them still was still a display of a possible threat. Now if the video had captured him screaming "please help me, help me" as he was crawling, then maybe this would apply.

On a side note, I really like how people who have never been put in a life-threatening situation in their entire lives pretend like they know exactly how they would act... You have no idea how your emotions will wind up controlling your actions instead of your logic, no idea at all...

Which is why I'm not a cop, and he is. While he may have been advancing, that is not at all procedure to shoot someone crawling towards you. Officer was told to hold fire, please address this side of the argument. Officer is also hiding behind "unintentional blindness", an excuse that if accepted through courts would give police authority an exploitation to shoot first and ask later.

As for other posts saying whether or not the cop struck with the chain had been killed or not, that question isn't even worth discussing. Because that did not happen and that scenario has no influence in what situation the cops were put Iinfront of: an injured man shot 6 times, disarmed by an officer, crawling in hands and knees and then executed with a head shot. If we allow the station where the cop DID feel threatened to the point where he felt his life was immediately on the line against a cripple, THEN WHY SHOOT THE HEAD?

FFS I really hope you guys understand the gravity of the situation. I have previously disclosed I'm not a cop hater and that I have, on several occasions, even helped the police force with leads and reports, however this behavior is intolerable. As a tax payer, I'm not complying with paying this cop's salary. Not sure why you guys are.

[MiddleAgedAl]

Originally Posted by Vanity

As for other posts saying whether or not the cop struck with the chain had been killed or not, that question isn't even worth discussing. Because that did not happen and that scenario has no influence in what situation the cops were put Iinfront of.

That initial assault against the cop has HUGE influence on how they react after that. A bad ending was almost assured after he took that initial action. The cop who was struck was fortunate to be alive. Even if he didnt make any contact at all, by simply swinging the chain at the cops head, he has removed doubt and PROVED to the cops that he is both willing and able to take actions which could cause immediate death. When you consider he did so despite being dramatically out-numbered and out-armed, that just ups the volatility even more. After seeing that, my assumption going forward would NOT be to assume that this much hope of ending peacefully after rational negotiation.

The reasons WHY he has now escalated to that point are really irrelevant; high on drugs, mentally ill, sober and trying to kill, doesnt matter. The potential outcome is the same in each case.

Then, when you shoot him multiple times and yet he still advances, that would only serve to reinforce suspicion that this person is even more of a wildcard. You could argue he is crippled and cant cause as much damage as a 100% physically fit person, but considering his outrageously bold antics up to that point, anything could be next. In todays modern world, sadly you cannot even rule out the chance he may even have explosives or something strapped to his chest that only takes a single weak finger to detonate once he get close enough.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not advocating for some oppressive police state where you could be executed by cops without probable cause when you go about your lawful business. But, if you tell me that in order to live in a peaceful society, I must surrender my right to swing a steel melee weapon at a cops head, well... I think I'm OK with that restriction.

[Vanity]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

That initial assault against the cop has HUGE influence on how they react after that. A bad ending was almost assured after he took that initial action. The cop who was struck was fortunate to be alive. Even if he didnt make any contact at all, by simply swinging the chain at the cops head, he has removed doubt and PROVED to the cops that he is both willing and able to take actions which could cause immediate death. When you consider he did so despite being dramatically out-numbered and out-armed, that just ups the volatility even more. After seeing that, my assumption going forward would NOT be to assume that this much hope of ending peacefully after rational negotiation.

The reasons WHY he has now escalated to that point are really irrelevant; high on drugs, mentally ill, sober and trying to kill, doesnt matter. The potential outcome is the same in each case.

Then, when you shoot him multiple times and yet he still advances, that would only serve to reinforce suspicion that this person is even more of a wildcard. You could argue he is crippled and cant cause as much damage as a 100% physically fit person, but considering his outrageously bold antics up to that point, anything could be next. In todays modern world, sadly you cannot even rule out the chance he may even have explosives or something strapped to his chest that only takes a single weak finger to detonate once he get close enough.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not advocating for some oppressive police state where you could be executed by cops without probable cause when you go about your lawful business. But, if you tell me that in order to live in a peaceful society, I must surrender my right to swing a steel melee weapon at a cops head, well... I think I'm OK with that restriction.

No quarrels with you there my friend. But swinging a bike chain and getting shot six times, I'd call that a little bit too much. People have been tasered for a lot more. As for shooting him for progression, let's say the officer DID feel as if his life was in immediate danger. Still, answer me on this: Why shoot the head? That is a shot to kill someone, not to stop someone.

These cops are highly trained at aiming, the shot was fired point-blank, and he aimed for the head. Execution.

[Templar]

I had this whole big thing typed up, but you're clearly making a lot of assumptions about the event based on a short video clip. It's not really worth arguing...

[JesusMChrist]

The RCMP are a joke yet nothing compared to the wonder that is the Delta Police.

[panicos81]

based on what i see in the video:

the guy was unarmed crawling.

now unless he got some superpower zombie powers when he crawled in front of that car and tried to attack the officers, the last shot was unjustifiable.

and if they really claim temporary blindness(!!!! really??!!) then that just screams guilty at me.. i mean one second i'm temporary blind and the next one aim shoot and hit a head in the night.. thats some quick eyesight recovery!!

[panicos81]

this one is better


but were are the ones from the cars in front.. have you no mobile phones???

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by Vanity

As for other posts saying whether or not the cop struck with the chain had been killed or not, that question isn't even worth discussing. Because that did not happen and that scenario has no influence in what situation the cops were put Iinfront of: an injured man shot 6 times, disarmed by an officer, crawling in hands and knees and then executed with a head shot. If we allow the station where the cop DID feel threatened to the point where he felt his life was immediately on the line against a cripple, THEN WHY SHOOT THE HEAD?

I think this is where you are confused or watch too many cop tv shows. I'm guessing you don't know any RCMP officers personally (ie. not acquaintances on the job, actual friends or relatives)?

They don't shoot to injure or stop an approach. They are trained to shoot to kill. What you fail to realize is that hitting a psychotic, moving target isn't the simplest thing in the world. Make no mistake. All 6 previous shots were trying to kill the suspect.

[MiddleAgedAl]

What is really the bigger threat to the general public here ?

Cops who shoot after a situation escalates to an unusual extreme (suspect physically attacks a fellow cop in a manner which could have easily killed them, then still does not assume a submissive/non-threatening posture even after being shot multiple times, so even more shots delivered, finally killing the suspect). Keeping in mind that it is so rare/extreme that most cops complete their entire careers without fatally shooting someone on the job.

Or

Person with mental illness is walking around in public, and their internal "behavior filter" does not allow them to anticipate that swinging a metal chain at the head of a uniformed, armed cop with backup cant possibly end well for them. Who is to say what they are capable of doing in an interaction with the average unarmed, untrained person ? What if, instead, they had some altercation on the street with a loved one of yours? It could have been your spouse or child walking by who unintentionally did something to set this person off, and the first blow with the metal chain could have easily been fatal.

Scenario #1 would not cause me to lose sleep at night, knowing I could have some influence of my fate by simply not attacking cops with weapons in the first place. The second scenario, where it is more up to chance or fate, that seems to be a bigger risk for society to address somehow. Dont spend taxpayer money dragging the cop thru the mud, instead apply that to mental health resources so people who need help can get it in an controlled environment before they pose a danger to themselves and others.

[dtwyim]

Originally Posted by panicos81

based on what i see in the video:

the guy was unarmed crawling.

now unless he got some superpower zombie powers when he crawled in front of that car and tried to attack the officers, the last shot was unjustifiable.

and if they really claim temporary blindness(!!!! really??!!) then that just screams guilty at me.. i mean one second i'm temporary blind and the next one aim shoot and hit a head in the night.. thats some quick eyesight recovery!!

+1

There is no question a guy swinging a chain is a threat that the cops can justify using deadly force.

A wounded guy crawling on all fours could still be a threat, but less than while he was swinging a chain. At that point, is use of deadly force justifiable? That may be up to the courts to decide.

To me, someone got trigger happy and want to finish what was started. The officer did what he or she is trained to, shoot to kill.

BUT, forgot to continually evaluate the situation.

Don't they have tasers, batons?

I am not a cop, but just because you started using a firearm, do you have to finish the job with a firearm?

[Cdnrockies]

Vancouver police Chief Jim Chu has apologized to the family of a man shot dead by an officer in 2007 and says the department will fully co-operate with the new investigation into the death.

Paul Boyd was killed by an officer on Granville Street in August 2007 after he attacked officers with a bicycle chain. It was later learned he was suffering from a psychotic incident at the time

Several investigations cleared the officer of any wrongdoing, but after CBC News uncovered a cellphone recording showing Boyd crawling on his hands and feet moments before he was shot, a new investigation by a special team of police from Alberta was ordered by the province.

Chu pointed out there has already been four reviews of Boyd's death. But he said the new video justified another investigation and the VPD would cooperate fully.

"I'm very sorry the events unfolded the way they did that day," Chu said. "I was very disturbed by the video. It was very troubling to see that."

He said the department has created a new web page to link publically available documents related to the shooting.

Const. Lee Chipperfield, the officer who shot and killed Boyd, has been pulled from frontline duty and has undergone new training and consultation with psychology experts, Chu said, adding the officer has since been assigned to the forensic identification unit.

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/v...007-shooting-4

And the VPD official response.

http://mediareleases.vpd.ca/2012/05/...-of-paul-boyd/

P.S. Why the heck would you have even brought the RCMP into this conversation? Really seems like you are letting the media spin influence your opinions.