[zenmaster]

There are no unbiased "Consumer Reports" labs to examine these mods, and there is a limit to how much technical info a customer wants to know. So most customers treat their piggyback-ECU combo as a "black box" and consequently are slaves to whatever biased tid bits that marketing sees fit to make public.

As far as reliability goes, the more parts in the system, the better chance something will break. The under-hood environment is rather harsh to sensitive electrical circuitry. I doubt this consideration has passed by any of these developers.

My guess with the current demands on the drive train, you're probably not going to see durability issues with any of these products for at least 80K mi. And then only with the cars that have been driven the hardest. Of course, when some drive-train component does fail, after so many thousands of problem-free miles, it will be difficult to determine if piggyback caused it, or if it was a maintenance issue, or driver abuse, or some other factor.

Both (heavily emphasized) dyno graphs and drag times, are only indicating power output under the best possible conditions (aside from ambient temp and humidity) for a cool-running engine for a brief period of time. So unless more customers start monitoring their own engines (i.e. boost, a/f, timing, knock events) - they'll lack the info necessary to determine what is actually ocurring with their own car under more realistic, everyday driving conditions or under conditions seen at a race track.

As far as people reporting issues - you do know that a mod can be doing slow damage to an engine without the driver being aware of it, right?

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by e.n335

^ well, you can take it like that:

If stage 1 is $179 and we all know very well of what it consists I could imagine what stage 2 consists of. I am not willing to put some engine performance parts on my car, worth less than $20, "developed" by a software engineer with a questionable reputation based on a concept which has been a joke of Shiv. I wonder why some do.

How about that ?

Cheers
Eugen

You do realize that modern tuning is an exercise in software, right?

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

You do realize that modern tuning is an exercise in software, right?

This is correct. (Both Terry and Shiv are Software Engineers.)

[5soko]

i just became a software engineer according to the above post.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by 5sokol335icoupe

i just became a software engineer according to the above post.

Presumably, they both have computer science degrees...

[hotrod182]

Can you believe some of the most talented computer software developers don't have any engineering degrees? Imagine that...

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

Can you believe some of the most talented computer software developers don't have any engineering degrees? Imagine that...

That is true - the intent with the reply (addressing the "i just became a software engineer according to the above post.") was to point out that they both have claimed to be software engineers and have done software engineering professionally for many years. I think 5sokol335icoupe may have not known this...

[sflgator]

One thing to note is one (Shiv) has been tuning F/I turbo cars for the past 5+ years with a piggyback computer (XEDE and now PROcede) while the other (Terry) does NOT have such extensive tuning experience. In addition, Shiv has had the most experience specifically tuning the BMW 335i. There is NO argument against this point.

I think ppl should know this and then go with their "gut" feeling in regards to making the best choice for their own 335i tuning s/w.

[bnj]

Sflgator, your point of view is not very useful nor relevant. What is the experience exactly that Terry would need to get forward or to enhance the product? I don't see it.

Terry started a lot later and has even S2 ready while Shiv is struggling with V2. What is relevant is the experience possessed vs the experience required considering the complexity of the product. Had Shiv one year more experience with 335, he would have v2 ready. Terry has a lot experience considering the low level of complexity. No cels, no limp modes...

Procede is a high complexity attempt. That is when experience is required. We Procede customers would suffer a lot, had they the same level of experience. In that case I would suggest Juice box for everyone...

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by bnj

Sflgator, your point of view is not very useful nor relevant. What is the experience exactly that Terry would need to get forward or to enhance the product? I don't see it.

Terry started a lot later and has even S2 ready while Shiv is struggling with V2. What is relevant is the experience possessed vs the experience required considering the complexity of the product. Had Shiv one year more experience with 335, he would have v2 ready. Terry has a lot experience considering the low level of complexity. No cels, no limp modes...

Procede is a high complexity attempt. That is when experience is required. We Procede customers would suffer a lot, had they the same level of experience. In that case I would suggest Juice box for everyone...

If you were to outline the operation parameters, such as how much boost is added, how much margin of knock retard is available, and what other safety nets are availiable, its all pretty understandable. I mean, if you know your redline is at 8000 RPM on a M3, and your software allows it to go to 8100 RPM, and people have safely been racing stock engines with those enhancements, then I think you have to use your logic and common sense to make your decision as to whether or not you want to buy that software. Sure, with any enhancement, the more power the engine puts out, the more highly stressed the components become. But it isn't the magic that some people make it out to be. The fact that the JB and TTuner trick a couple of the factory sensors, allows you to determine what the effects are by how much their operating range changes from stock. True, with further boost increases, once you go beyond the parameters to control things safely by these means, you will need something more sophisticated like the Procede. But the point is, the Juice box is not some mystery box where you have no idea what it is doing. Terry was pretty specific in how it worked, and how much boost is added.

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by bnj

Sflgator, your point of view is not very useful nor relevant. What is the experience exactly that Terry would need to get forward or to enhance the product? I don't see it.

Terry started a lot later and has even S2 ready while Shiv is struggling with V2. What is relevant is the experience possessed vs the experience required considering the complexity of the product. Had Shiv one year more experience with 335, he would have v2 ready. Terry has a lot experience considering the low level of complexity. No cels, no limp modes...

Procede is a high complexity attempt. That is when experience is required. We Procede customers would suffer a lot, had they the same level of experience. In that case I would suggest Juice box for everyone...

Are you kidding me? Don't be an idiot. Experience with both a piggyback computer, the car's specific maps and inner-working has EVERYTHING to do with it. Yes, the PROcede is more complex than the Juicebox or SSTT, but I suppose it has to be for the best possible tune for this car. Many ppl have said that Terry's "Juicebox" is basically a souped up SS-Turbo Tuner.

Shiv has had years of experience with the XEDE (on Mitsu Evos, Subie WRX Stis, and the BMW 335i) and now the PROcede on the 335i and Porsche 911 Turbo, while Terry gained A LOT of knowledge very recently from Shiv and from being on this Forum; however, he is just not in the same league as Shiv, AA, RD Sport, etc. I'm not saying that Terry and his new product suck; just that he doesn't have as much experience with all of this tuning stuff and his product, while initial impressions and tests seem to be good, it is NOT a PROVEN product by any means.

I'm not sure where you get off by saying that Shiv is "struggling" with v2.0? I believe this is far from the truth; Shiv is merely perfecting v2.0, adding new features, getting harnesses ready, and shooting an install video...that's a lot of work, you know. He wants to release this much anticipated new version with the utmost readiness and professionalism; it's called making a "good business decision."

Is it possible that his Juicebox works ok? Yes, but I wouldn't trust it on my car at this stage of the game. Shiv has proven to me and hundreds of other 335i drivers that the PROcede is a great product. So, the car goes into "temporary" limp mode 1x every 2 months for not hitting the boost target...no big deal, imho. Now, Shiv has addressed this issue and claims that it has been eliminated by PROcede v2.0 s/w...and I'm ok with that.

So don't give us any of your b.s.

btw -- Every time I hear about Terry's "Juicebox," I think of my 5-year-old kid asking me if she can have a juicebox from the fridge.

[Beer Goggles]

I didn't know we lived in a world where on product can work correctly and not another.

[Lee Rambler]

Originally Posted by sflgator

Are you kidding me? Don't be an idiot. Experience with both a piggyback computer, the car's specific maps and inner-working has EVERYTHING to do with it. Yes, the PROcede is more complex than the Juicebox or SSTT, but I suppose it has to be for the best possible tune for this car. Many ppl have said that Terry's "Juicebox" is basically a souped up SS-Turbo Tuner.

Shiv has had years of experience with the XEDE (on Mitsu Evos, Subie WRX Stis, and the BMW 335i) and now the PROcede on the 335i and Porsche 911 Turbo, while Terry gained A LOT of knowledge very recently from Shiv and from being on this Forum; however, he is just not in the same league as Shiv, AA, RD Sport, etc. I'm not saying that Terry and his new product suck; just that he doesn't have as much experience with all of this tuning stuff and his product, while initial impressions and tests seem to be good, it is NOT a PROVEN product by any means.

quite honestly, I don't think the procede or any other tuner is proven yet. with as many limp mode issues as the procede has had, I couldn't call that "proven reliable". and the others don't have enough of a sample yet to be "proven". there isn't data to show they aren't, but (and I could be wrong) there aren't hundreds of AA xedes, RD sport xedes, etc out there. An argument could probobly be made for the turbo tuner, but it may be too early to truly say on this application.

I'm not sure where you get off by saying that Shiv is "struggling" with v2.0? I believe this is far from the truth; Shiv is merely perfecting v2.0, adding new features, getting harnesses ready, and shooting an install video...that's a lot of work, you know. He wants to release this much anticipated new version with the utmost readiness and professionalism; it's called making a "good business decision."

great call on his part, especially with the current/past limp mode issues. it needs to be rock solid out of the gate with all of the current competition.

Is it possible that his Juicebox works ok? Yes, but I wouldn't trust it on my car at this stage of the game. Shiv has proven to me and hundreds of other 335i drivers that the PROcede is a great product.

I can't agree that limp mode, be it once a week or once a month, is not a big deal. back in my dsm days? yeah, I'd have lived with it. But in a BMW? nah, that's not what I bought a BMW for....

Now, Shiv has addressed this issue and claims that it has been eliminated by PROcede v2.0 s/w...

I sure hope so. Proof will be in the pudding though, so to speak.

and I'm ok with that.
So don't give us any of your b.s.

btw -- Every time I hear about Terry's "Juicebox," I think of my 5-year-old kid asking me if she can have a juicebox from the fridge.

LOL, me too.

[Lee Rambler]

sorry if my text in the quote got confusing there, I'm retarded and didn't do it right....

[bnj]

Sflgator, I am saying that Terry has the needed experience for coming up with his low complexity product and as you claimed otherwise I asked for the specific experience that you believe he would need to make his product even more perfect. You did not answer nor point out what it is that we disagree on. By strugling I mean that it has obviously taken a longer time than anticipated to come up with this good a product that V2is.

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by bnj

Sflgator, I am saying that Terry has the needed experience for coming up with his low complexity product and as you claimed otherwise I asked for the specific experience that you believe he would need to make his product even more perfect. You did not answer nor point out what it is that we disagree on. By strugling I mean that it has obviously taken a longer time than anticipated to come up with this good a product that V2is.

I apologize; didn't understand your point...sorry. Anyhow, in regards to PROcede v2.0...good things come to those who wait. I had an opportunity not long ago to speak with Shiv and Dustin face-to-face about v2.0, while they traveled to my neck of the woods to work on an '07 PROcede Porsche 911 Turbo (very cool btw ) and I inquired about the difference between v1.47 and v2.0...let's just use these emoticons... :rocks: Got it?

[bnj]

Originally Posted by sflgator

I apologize; didn't understand your point...sorry. Anyhow, in regards to PROcede v2.0...good things come to those who wait. I had an opportunity not long ago to speak with Shiv and Dustin face-to-face about v2.0, while they traveled to my neck of the woods to work on an '07 PROcede Porsche 911 Turbo (very cool btw ) and I inquired about the difference between v1.47 and v2.0...let's just use these emoticons... :rocks:

Its ok. I could have been more clear in my original post.