[V8bait]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

This depends… I’m curious also from a theoretical viewpoint. It depends on how the E85 is evaporating. PI it will cool more hardware, which is useless… you want it to cool the charge air of course. DI charge air is cooled, but when it happens exactly will depend on how much additional O2 you can cram into the cylinder (air density).

BUT Meth does have higher evaporative cooling, and the chem formula gives you more energy (I believe). Methanol is better as a fuel (cooling, octane, energy), but injecting in the charge pipe decreases the cooling aspect since the air can reheat.

Also depends on where peak pressure is… if you are close with E85, the additional octane, cooling of meth will not help the tuning.

Where’s @v8bait

I got a "infarction" because I'm mean to people sometimes I guess, and some posts deleted, so I took a break from here. It usually takes me about 10-12 posts to get one of those, and then only 8 or so posts end up remaining.

Anyway, you don't need me here. You got it down with what you said

In DI E50 pretty much magic. I posted a MIT guys thesis on it a while back on another forum that was dry and long but interesting when I was bored at work. John Heywood at sloan was the corresponding author so it was definitely legit.

Anyway, OT- You got it all correct really. Some other benefits to DI injection increased dramatically with E85 (diminishing returns over E50) are an ability to cool cylinder air, increasing its density there and increasing engine VE a few percent. Works even better with high IATs, but high IAT's aren't necessarily good of course. The engine is a heat engine, it has to deal with the heat somewhere, it matters little where, as long as you don't induce detonation. The turbos airflow is the turbos airflow, cool or hot won't really make any difference in how much you get to use, turbo speed determines that (and other things naturally).

Methanol is awesome. It's the best fuel source other than nitromethane imo. But there are downsides to methanol injection in the cars, mainly cylinder distribution, kit control, refilling, etc. But meth is great that being said.

As for its usefulness, well, trims for one. But if you have the LPFP upgrade and trims are fine, or the HPFP and LPFP upgrade and trims are fine, then that's meh.

As for its usefulness on IATs, well you kinda already answered that too. I mean it will lower them sure but why? Plus your kinda wasting the cooling outside of the combustion chamber as joshbody said. The IAT's only matter because your engine was tuned for gas. If you flatten the table in Cobb that pertains to IAT, then you wont lose any timing, and thus no power assuming you don't detonate. That is pretty unlikely on E85. You are using an intercooler already anyway. Now if you really want to break some records, here's a thought. I've helped in a few projects on LSX's running over 1k hp with no intercooler, using port fueled E85 and methanol injection. IAT was well over 250 degrees and they ran like 25 degrees advance or something with 30+ psi. Illiminating the IC helped chargepipe length, spool, efficiency, etc and liberates a few PSI you wouldn't otherwise see. Should you do that? Most would say no. I'd say it's just a motor, lol.

[Joshboody]

I like reading your posts. You kinda touched on something that i can't seem to answer definitively for myself. Simply, does a compressor move air mass or volume?

[robc1976]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

I like reading your posts. You kinda touched on something that i can't seem to answer definitively for myself. Simply, does a compressor move air mass or volume?

I love his post to....very informative!

[V8bait]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

I like reading your posts. You kinda touched on something that i can't seem to answer definitively for myself. Simply, does a compressor move air mass or volume?

Hmm. That sounds straightforward and simple but took some thought. The turbo will spin at X rpm. How much air it moves at that rpm is based on the atmospheric pressure (versus the pressure drop across the air filters/intake pipes), outside temperature (related to air density), and other things like relative humidity to an extent (less air per volume). That directly effects the compressor efficiency. Once the air is compressed, the actual number of oxygen atoms (airmass) is the most important factor, not temperature or anything else (well, it's important, but no).

That would mean the turbo moves a set volume of air. The airmass is variable from the conditions, airmass of 1L of air at 32 degrees on a dry day is different than the airmass of that same 1L of air at 90 degrees on a humid day. Altitude will also decrease the airmass in that 1L. So, a turbo rated for 42lbs of air at sea level will move less air at altitude, or possibly more air on a cold day at sea level. That's why the factory uses load targeting, they can adjust the turbo speed to account for changes in conditions, so that the same airmass is moved towards the engine simply by running more volume (more turbo RPM) of low airmass air (increasing pressure).

Regardless of how the turbo works, the airmass that is ultimately moved towards the engine is all that matters. Say the engine pushes 42lbs of air to the engine. Not thinking about how hard it's working to do this, the "boost" pressure you see is simply the engine pushing back and trying not to take the 42lbs of air. If the turbo pushes 42lbs, the engine WILL take 42lbs. But some engines will take it at 12psi and some will take it at 20psi. Dzenno's car has ported heads, so his engine will suck that same 42lbs at a lower psi, for normal cars they will take more psi for that airflow. If Dzenno tried to target the same psi as the rest of us (which I think he's done a few times) he'd be pusshing those turbo's HARD due to the airmass they would have to push, and the volumes of air they would have to drink to generate it.

Edit- so in answer to your question, it ingests air volume, and pushes air mass. Outside conditions determine the air mass per volume ingested, and engine characteristics determine boost pressure for air mass out.

[07tundra]

If you guys haven't noticed I'm trying my hardest to stay away from Meth...lol but if doing that will limit my power output say 30-50whp I will go ahead and use it but if we're talking 10-15whp between using or not using; I'd rather not use.

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by V8bait

Hmm. That sounds straightforward and simple but took some thought. The turbo will spin at X rpm. How much air it moves at that rpm is based on the atmospheric pressure (versus the pressure drop across the air filters/intake pipes), outside temperature (related to air density), and other things like relative humidity to an extent (less air per volume). That directly effects the compressor efficiency. Once the air is compressed, the actual number of oxygen atoms (airmass) is the most important factor, not temperature or anything else (well, it's important, but no).

That would mean the turbo moves a set volume of air. The airmass is variable from the conditions, airmass of 1L of air at 32 degrees on a dry day is different than the airmass of that same 1L of air at 90 degrees on a humid day. Altitude will also decrease the airmass in that 1L. So, a turbo rated for 42lbs of air at sea level will move less air at altitude, or possibly more air on a cold day at sea level. That's why the factory uses load targeting, they can adjust the turbo speed to account for changes in conditions, so that the same airmass is moved towards the engine simply by running more volume (more turbo RPM) of low airmass air (increasing pressure).

Regardless of how the turbo works, the airmass that is ultimately moved towards the engine is all that matters. Say the engine pushes 42lbs of air to the engine. Not thinking about how hard it's working to do this, the "boost" pressure you see is simply the engine pushing back and trying not to take the 42lbs of air. If the turbo pushes 42lbs, the engine WILL take 42lbs. But some engines will take it at 12psi and some will take it at 20psi. Dzenno's car has ported heads, so his engine will suck that same 42lbs at a lower psi, for normal cars they will take more psi for that airflow. If Dzenno tried to target the same psi as the rest of us (which I think he's done a few times) he'd be pusshing those turbo's HARD due to the airmass they would have to push, and the volumes of air they would have to drink to generate it.

Edit- so in answer to your question, it ingests air volume, and pushes air mass. Outside conditions determine the air mass per volume ingested, and engine characteristics determine boost pressure for air mass out.

A compressor works at a pressure ratio. Hotter temps generally lower ambient pressure increasing the PR at X discharge pressure. At a set rpm MAP changes with temp keeping the same PR. If reduce altitude (in hotter temp) to find equal ambient pressure to match MAP, but you still have reduced air density due to higher temp. Ok, I agree moves volume.

I think my confusion comes from discussions of mass flow... kinda like most people define volumetric efficiency as mass airflow efficiency.

[Wedge1967]

Originally Posted by 07tundra

Guys I'm not trying be an ass or anything like that so if I come off like that I'm sorry. If there is work around to using meth then I would rather go that route. Just for me the more parts you have in the mix the more readily something can happen. Rob maybe Terry could chime in or denzo? I'm about to get the walbro but thats 100$ that I could put toward the Vargas mod plus if i sell the meth kit. So if this Vargas fuel mod could fuel sufficiently with 100% e85 is e85 sufficient of a fuel/octane to push the psi that you're pushing say 23 psi without meth. I've seen Denzo and Terry at that other bb forum more than here how can move this over there so they could further educate me!

First let me start by saying that meth with 100% e85 will get you 20 to 30 whp if you tune for it.

Also, let me point out the fact that unless you plan on making over 700 whp I wouldn't recommend the upgraded HPFP. Waste of money and the fact it's upgraded will more than likely reduce the pump life and we all know they are really only good for a year or two. I'm on my third pump in two years.

The Walbro will do the job if you install it correctly. I still recommend two pumps, so if you have the money do it right.

For those who don't understand the fueling limitations, the HPFP isn't he issue under 600 whp, it's LPFP volume. The LPFP can't handle the surge of fuel needed to supply the HPFP when running E85.

Hope this helps.

[V8bait]

Originally Posted by Wedge1967

First let me start by saying that meth with 100% e85 will get you 20 to 30 whp if you tune for it.

Also, let me point out the fact that unless you plan on making over 700 whp I wouldn't recommend the upgraded HPFP. Waste of money and the fact it's upgraded will more than likely reduce the pump life and we all know they are really only good for a year or two. I'm on my third pump in two years.

The Walbro will do the job if you install it correctly. I still recommend two pumps, so if you have the money do it right.

For those who don't understand the fueling limitations, the HPFP isn't he issue under 600 whp, it's LPFP volume. The LPFP can't handle the surge of fuel needed to supply the HPFP when running E85.

Hope this helps.

I agree with most of what you say, other than my hpfp is original from 2007 with zero issues and over 50k miles so they are not always bad, and on rb turbo fbo 100% e85 I've seen hpfp drops below 1100psi with full lpfp pressure steady on cars under 550hp...

But, can you please explain the bold, or link to some proof? I've seen 460whp on e85/dp/dci on stock fans and intercooler, I just don't see where 20-30 more hp would come from. I think this would be feasible for cars on piggyback tunes only.

[Wedge1967]

Originally Posted by V8bait

I agree with most of what you say, other than my hpfp is original from 2007 with zero issues and over 50k miles so they are not always bad, and on rb turbo fbo 100% e85 I've seen hpfp drops below 1100psi with full lpfp pressure steady on cars under 550hp...

But, can you please explain the bold, or link to some proof? I've seen 460whp on e85/dp/dci on stock fans and intercooler, I just don't see where 20-30 more hp would come from. I think this would be feasible for cars on piggyback tunes only.

Congratulations on the HPFP. I take it you're not FBO?

It's been my experience that LPFP will sustain pressure, but fails to sustain the volume require on surge causing the HPFP to drop pressure.

I agree you can make big numbers on just E85 FBO with stock fans, but be realistic. My car will pull over 450 back to back. You try that with a car not running meth and it will heat soak and fall on it's face. I don't care who's tune you're running.

I think it's great you have seen all these other cars making big numbers, but dyno and real world driving are two different things. You might pull off some big numbers on a run after a cool down, but then go do the same on the street WOT through four gears and tell me you're not dropping timing or pulling boost due to high AITs.

Sorry if I come off the wrong way about this, just trying to save you time of having to figure this all out on your own. I'm just telling you what I know and how my car has performed over the past year of running 100% E85 & Meth. If that doesn't change your mind, go watch my videos as I hold the first place tier 3 tuner shootout trophy from Shift S3ctor on the 6th of April. I only lost one race on Saturday to a 580 hp turbo e46 M3 which was in another class. I had my meth over flow set too low after cleaning my nozzles. It over sprayed and shut my meth down 100 yards before the finish causing my car to dropped 100 whp. Needless to say, the M3 went from my back bumper to my front bumber as we crossed the finish line. But that's racing...

[07tundra]

Originally Posted by Wedge1967

First let me start by saying that meth with 100% e85 will get you 20 to 30 whp if you tune for it.

Also, let me point out the fact that unless you plan on making over 700 whp I wouldn't recommend the upgraded HPFP. Waste of money and the fact it's upgraded will more than likely reduce the pump life and we all know they are really only good for a year or two. I'm on my third pump in two years.

The Walbro will do the job if you install it correctly. I still recommend two pumps, so if you have the money do it right.

For those who don't understand the fueling limitations, the HPFP isn't he issue under 600 whp, it's LPFP volume. The LPFP can't handle the surge of fuel needed to supply the HPFP when running E85.

Hope this helps.

So the walbro the one that Terry put in the tank along with the stock pump thats the configuration you're talking about? Or you saying two walbros But you still need the cobb with the flash for everything to be right.

[Wedge1967]

Originally Posted by 07tundra

So the walbro the one that Terry put in the tank along with the stock pump thats the configuration you're talking about? Or you saying two walbros But you still need the cobb with the flash for everything to be right.

Depending on the # you will be making, a single pump will work, but I'm running my stock pump with an inline Walbro from FFTEC. You can also check out Vargas's parallel Walbro's as he did a DIY on putting two pumps in place of the single pump.

You will need the DME flash to fix your trims. You can do that with COBB or wait for the open source flash.

[07tundra]

Originally Posted by Wedge1967

Depending on the # you will be making, a single pump will work, but I'm running my stock pump with an inline Walbro from FFTEC. You can also check out Vargas's parallel Walbro's as he did a DIY on putting two pumps in place of the single pump.

You will need the DME flash to fix your trims. You can do that with COBB or wait for the open source flash.

So vargas did 2 walbros I think i'd rather do that both E85 compatable. Is that DIY on here or where? I will be going just stage 2 so I think that should be sufficient. How long before that open source comes into play and who will be able to do it?

[Wedge1967]

Originally Posted by 07tundra

So vargas did 2 walbros I think i'd rather do that both E85 compatable. Is that DIY on here or where? I will be going just stage 2 so I think that should be sufficient. How long before that open source comes into play and who will be able to do it?

Not sure if he posted it here or if it was on B B. You'll have to search for it. Not sure how long Open Source will be. You'll just have to subscribe and see how it plays out. I would take it in steps... Until you see your trims max, then you need to address the issue. If they aren't, then just wait.

Just my personal opinion, but we don't have much data on the stage 2's. I wouldn't get into a hurry as things around here are going to get interesting very soon. The fact that JP hasn't shown any numbers to put the stage 2 on the next level from RB's makes me concerned. I just don't think people should rush into paying big money for something that doesn't have any supporting data. Just my opinion. Good luck man. Hope you get every setup they way you want it.

[V8bait]

Originally Posted by Wedge1967

Congratulations on the HPFP. I take it you're not FBO?

It's been my experience that LPFP will sustain pressure, but fails to sustain the volume require on surge causing the HPFP to drop pressure.

I agree you can make big numbers on just E85 FBO with stock fans, but be realistic. My car will pull over 450 back to back. You try that with a car not running meth and it will heat soak and fall on it's face. I don't care who's tune you're running.

I think it's great you have seen all these other cars making big numbers, but dyno and real world driving are two different things. You might pull off some big numbers on a run after a cool down, but then go do the same on the street WOT through four gears and tell me you're not dropping timing or pulling boost due to high AITs.

Sorry if I come off the wrong way about this, just trying to save you time of having to figure this all out on your own. I'm just telling you what I know and how my car has performed over the past year of running 100% E85 & Meth. If that doesn't change your mind, go watch my videos as I hold the first place tier 3 tuner shootout trophy from Shift S3ctor on the 6th of April. I only lost one race on Saturday to a 580 hp turbo e46 M3 which was in another class. I had my meth over flow set too low after cleaning my nozzles. It over sprayed and shut my meth down 100 yards before the finish causing my car to dropped 100 whp. Needless to say, the M3 went from my back bumper to my front bumber as we crossed the finish line. But that's racing...

FBO for about 20k of those. Then back to stock (other than tune) for about 15k, going back to FBO again soon. I realize that's not normal. The E93 in our family has been through 2 so far tune only.

I see what you mean about the LPFP volume demand, but 9/10 times the LPFP pressure will drop then HPFP pressure will drop. I could go into more detail but it's not really necessary. With the walboro drop in I haven't had any issues, but I'm stock turbo, but most others see the same results.

Wedge, your car is amazing and you put down some great times, faster than mine for sure. But heatsoak is only really an issue for piggybacks since they cannot remove timing pull from the IAT increase. A flash tune does not suffer from heatsoak on E85 nearly as much if set up correctly for E85. This has been proven on many, many other platforms. A properly tuned E85 car may gain 10hp or so from a better intercooler, mainly from a lower pressure drop. You shouldn't confuse correlation for causation, what works for you is more related to your setup than anything else. If I was just running procede or JB4, then I would choose meth without question, but there are other options available with fewer limitations.

[V8bait]

Vargas is running the walboro in tank in parallel with the stock fuel pump. It's not the setup with two pumps in series, it's completely different. The only problem is it flows so much volume it overruns the factory pressure regulator, which actually helped them some but YMMV.

[V8bait]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

A compressor works at a pressure ratio. Hotter temps generally lower ambient pressure increasing the PR at X discharge pressure. At a set rpm MAP changes with temp keeping the same PR. If reduce altitude (in hotter temp) to find equal ambient pressure to match MAP, but you still have reduced air density due to higher temp. Ok, I agree moves volume.

I think my confusion comes from discussions of mass flow... kinda like most people define volumetric efficiency as mass airflow efficiency.

Pressure ratio is a great way to think about it, it's actually how the compressor maps are displayed. Has more to do with volume, indeed, my head doesn't work so well in terms of pressure ratios though lol but great point.

I'm not sure the best way to define VE, but mass flow is definitely what ends up mattering the most. The volume, temperature, etc matters less than the actual physical number of oxygen atoms that make it into the engine. Velocity is a big part of that equation too (pressure drop in an intercooler isn't due to the temperature decrease or a volume decrease, it's a reduction in velocity, causing the air to lose kenetic energy, and pressure drops, if that makes sense from a mass flow perspective).

Good thought provoking discussion.

[Wedge1967]

Originally Posted by V8bait

FBO for about 20k of those. Then back to stock (other than tune) for about 15k, going back to FBO again soon. I realize that's not normal. The E93 in our family has been through 2 so far tune only.

I see what you mean about the LPFP volume demand, but 9/10 times the LPFP pressure will drop then HPFP pressure will drop. I could go into more detail but it's not really necessary. With the walboro drop in I haven't had any issues, but I'm stock turbo, but most others see the same results.

Wedge, your car is amazing and you put down some great times, faster than mine for sure. But heatsoak is only really an issue for piggybacks since they cannot remove timing pull from the IAT increase. A flash tune does not suffer from heatsoak on E85 nearly as much if set up correctly for E85. This has been proven on many, many other platforms. A properly tuned E85 car may gain 10hp or so from a better intercooler, mainly from a lower pressure drop. You shouldn't confuse correlation for causation, what works for you is more related to your setup than anything else. If I was just running procede or JB4, then I would choose meth without question, but there are other options available with fewer limitations.

Well, I can flatten out the AIT table so it doesn't pull boost, but throwing caution to the wind just because your tables don't pull timing or boost when your AITs spike form back to back hard pulls doesn't make it safe.

Ultimately it comes down to your driving style and if you don't need meth then it's best you don't run it. It's just an option and should always be treated as such. Good luck man. Drop some number out when you get tuned. I'm back to stock now also. Just getting some things fixed and then emissions testing so I might drop the COBB flash on for a bit until I go back to FBO.

[Joshboody]

Procede does allow timing and boost compensation based on IATs.

On/off meth, IATs will be effected similarly... you just can't see it in the logs cause sensor reading is false. I believe Wedge has some pretty good first hand dyno experience with meth and E85. If he says there's an increase, I believe it... even if I can't positively explain why.

[07tundra]

I was really close to throwing my meth on the old forsale page. Now I'm back to thinking about it..lol. Wedge i thought someone had shown some VD#s which can prove to be pretty accurate on Vargs's stage2's

[V8bait]

Originally Posted by Wedge1967

Well, I can flatten out the AIT table so it doesn't pull boost, but throwing caution to the wind just because your tables don't pull timing or boost when your AITs spike form back to back hard pulls doesn't make it safe.

Ultimately it comes down to your driving style and if you don't need meth then it's best you don't run it. It's just an option and should always be treated as such. Good luck man. Drop some number out when you get tuned. I'm back to stock now also. Just getting some things fixed and then emissions testing so I might drop the COBB flash on for a bit until I go back to FBO.

If you run flat boost and flat timing (not cps regulated, actual timing) regardless of iat the power should be similar. I understand your comment on safety, low iat with meth on e85 is safer than e85 only with heatsoak, but it's imo safer than something that is already very, very safe. If you for sure have e50 or e70, on direct injection, the iat shouldn't matter one bit. I do value your opinion here very much with all your experience, but I feel many error on the side of safety based on the characteristics of gasoline, which is completely different... even 109 octane race gas doesn't really apply to e85 through DI.

[Wedge1967]

Originally Posted by V8bait

If you run flat boost and flat timing (not cps regulated, actual timing) regardless of iat the power should be similar. I understand your comment on safety, low iat with meth is safer than e85 and heatsoak, but it's imo safer than something that is already very, very safe. If you for sure have e50 or e70, on direct injection, the iat shouldn't matter one bit. I do value your opinion here very much with all your experience, but I feel many error on the side of safety based on the characteristics of gasoline, which is completely different... even 109 octane race gas doesn't really apply to e85 through DI.

I agree you can get by with high AIT's with E85 on a DI car. But I picked up 25 whp on HPFs DynoJet with meth. But I'm tuned for running 750ML at WOT @ 13:1 AFR. If you can get by without running meth on a daily driver I wouldn't waste my time. Good luck man.

[Wedge1967]

ABE92 - I can't reply to your question about 100% water vs meth from my profile page. Trunk mount with an approve meth tank and run 100% meth. You won't have fumes unless you spill meth all over your trunk. Just running water won't benefit much. It will keep your engine looking nice..