[Nelson@BimmerTech]

Originally Posted by Wongway

Just going to say first of all, I'm just an average_joe_layman, so I guess I probably don't know my stuff as well...

Frankly, I don't think I've ever heard a Focal speaker worth its money. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're a bad speaker, but to be honest, I've always felt with Focals, that I'm paying more for the name vs quality speaker. Generally speaking, I would think you could find at least as good sounding speaker for equal price.

Again, just the average guy out there, but that's what I've come across so far...


edit:
Also, in practice, I've found that a good DSP can make even crap speakers sound amazing. I once sat in a competition level vehicle that's won a few audio shows, and even made it to the finals this year (Alabama?). It used factory stock audio speakers. It's front stage and presence was astounding.

Very true!!!

[Wongway]

Originally Posted by skrelnik

...

Originally I powered these Focals with the PP82DSP and that just did not work well, so I added another amp to power the Focals and holy cow man...

Wongway - my Focals were worth every penny, if not more. I actually fear turning the bass all the way up cause my back window literally looks like it is going to pop out when I play heavy bass like Blackout(method man/redman).

Sorry, not to nitpick or anything. You like them, they're great for you awesome!

Two things stuck out to me with what you said.
1) That speaks nothing of sound quality. It just looks like you didn't have enough power or bad match with an amp.
2) You can get any old Best Buy special sub to rattle out the windows of a car/jeep, providing you get the right amp. The question is a matter of sound quality.

Again, not knocking your Focals. They're a good speaker. It's only my opinion that they aren't worth the money. As I mentioned before, I could very well be wrong in my opinion...

[DrRobert]

I have the Focal made-for-BMW kit speakers in the doors (IFBMW-S) and under the seats (IFBMW-Sub), and a Focal 12" flax sub (P30F) in the trunk, powered by Mosconi amps and DSP. The sound is very good but I have nothing to compare it to. Could be the type of music I listen to but I often have the bass turned all the way up (including the SW with a dedicated 500W amp) and sometimes have the treble turned down to get the sound I want. So I believe it when others say the Morels and/or Jehnerts provide a richer sound, because I do feel something is lacking in terms of depth and richness from my system. Wish I could be more precise but have done no back to back comparisons in the car.

[kaigoss69]

Originally Posted by DrRobert

I have the Focal made-for-BMW kit speakers in the doors (IFBMW-S) and under the seats (IFBMW-Sub), and a Focal 12" flax sub (P30F) in the trunk, powered by Mosconi amps and DSP. The sound is very good but I have nothing to compare it to. Could be the type of music I listen to but I often have the bass turned all the way up (including the SW with a dedicated 500W amp) and sometimes have the treble turned down to get the sound I want. So I believe it when others say the Morels and/or Jehnerts provide a richer sound, because I do feel something is lacking in terms of depth and richness from my system. Wish I could be more precise but have done no back to back comparisons in the car.

Not sure which DSP you have but I think all you may need is a professional tune. I'm no fan of the Focals speakers in general but a good tune should make them sound exactly how you like it.

[DrRobert]

Originally Posted by kaigoss69

Not sure which DSP you have but I think all you may need is a professional tune. I'm no fan of the Focals speakers in general but a good tune should make them sound exactly how you like it.

I have a Mosconi DSP, it has a protune and the tune has been revised at least once based on what I reported above. Car is still lacking in midbass despite focal underseat speakers. I still have the OEM HK rear door and deck speakers, am thinking of dropping something else in there (without tweeters on the rear deck) and retune to try to fill in the midrange with more depth.

I also have the 12" focal subwoofer cranked up all the way much of the time. I do like the way it sounds, but often wish I could turn it up louder (and that's with a dedicated 500W Mosconi class D amp running it). Again, that might be due to the music I listen to not having been recorded with a lot of bass. If I play some reggae or my kids' hip hop there is plenty of bass, but not enough for my liking with other stuff (i.e. older rock music). I'm trying to decide whether to add a second SW or swap out the focal for another 12" sub that might sound better.

[kaigoss69]

Originally Posted by DrRobert

I have a Mosconi DSP, it has a protune and the tune has been revised at least once based on what I reported above. Car is still lacking in midbass despite focal underseat speakers. I still have the OEM HK rear door and deck speakers, am thinking of dropping something else in there (without tweeters on the rear deck) and retune to try to fill in the midrange with more depth.

I also have the 12" focal subwoofer cranked up all the way much of the time. I do like the way it sounds, but often wish I could turn it up louder (and that's with a dedicated 500W Mosconi class D amp running it). Again, that might be due to the music I listen to not having been recorded with a lot of bass. If I play some reggae or my kids' hip hop there is plenty of bass, but not enough for my liking with other stuff (i.e. older rock music). I'm trying to decide whether to add a second SW or swap out the focal for another 12" sub that might sound better.

The midbass hole may be in part due to the Focals being "subwoofers" rather than "midwoofers". Not much you can do about that if that's the case. Your volume problem in the trunk is probably due to the enclosure and its placement.

[Wongway]

I'm going to guess, DrRobert, that Kaigoss69's statement is likely more true than not.

Stepping back and taking an overall look at the assortment of speakers at our disposal for our cars at least, It's definitely a matter of finding the right speakers for your particular tastes and purposes.

Likely, the punch you're missing in the kicks and bass guitars for your older rock music and the like, are from the lack of midbass that the proper underseats would generate.

A generalized example:
Some speakers are better at reproducing frequencies from let's say 250hz-80hz. Others might be better at reproducing frequencies from 100hz to 30hz. They might all be 8" woofers, but it's what that particular speaker was originally designed for and/or intended to play, that determines whether it's suited for you.

It's the exact same problems people had with Earthquakes vs Jehnerts. Earthquakes were never designed to play the midbass frequencies that a lot of folk wanted. They were designed to be a true "sub"woofer. Whereas the Jehnerts were designed to play the midbass frequencies people felt were "lacking" or "missing" from their sound. Both speakers are 8" woofers, but they both have a very huge difference in their design and output parameters.

You might be running into the same problems people had with Earthquakes in that you're attempting to get them to play frequencies they weren't designed to do well. Seeing as how you have a true "subwoofer" in the trunk, you could experiment with different underseats to have the appropriate fill that you're missing. Adding different speakers into the rear deck or rear doors will simply exasperate your issues since tuning a system like that properly becomes even more difficult with having the right frequencies hit your ear at the right times due to the various directions they'll be coming from.

Depending on how your system is setup with the appropriate DSP, you can experiment a little yourself and selectively turn off speakers at certain times just to see where the holes are and what speakers are lacking for your sound. For a joe_average_amateur guy like myself, having everything available to be plugged in on my laptop/tablet is immensely useful to turn off the tweeters and 4"midranges to isolate the rest of the system to play/listen and tune for the holes I'm missing. If your DSP is capable enough, you can even selectively tune certain frequencies to boost holes (or cut the gain) here and there to try and cover/even that gap.

[DrRobert]

My sub is installed in one of these:



Before I had it installed I just had the Focals in the front doors and underseats with the Mosconi DSP and amps, and it was severely lacking in bass - totally unacceptable. The sub helped a lot, and the installer of course changed the crossover point for the underseats so it wasn't overlapping with the sub's frequencies. But as you said perhaps I am now using the Focal underseats for something other than their intended purpose.

I'm a joe average amateur guy too, so perhaps I was wrong in thinking that adding an additional speaker on the rear deck (but not the Focal drop in 4" mid and 1" tweeter like I have up front) would help. But it looks like the rectangular grille on the back deck could fit a larger midrange speaker if I left out the tweeter, so I was wondering if something like that would help.

[ctuna]

Jehnert under seats =
super accurate warm audiophile midrange and enough bass for most
people that are not bass heads.

[DrRobert]

Originally Posted by ctuna

Jehnert under seats =
super accurate warm audiophile midrange and enough bass for most
people that are not bass heads.

Where's a good place to buy them?

[ctuna]

As far as I know there are only two places in the US
You get them as part of a VP kit or you buy them from
unexpected creations board member 6 speed coupe.

http://unexpectedcreations.com/

the model is xe-200

you might call him and ask for an opinion on your setup.
He works with all this stuff and will have a pro opinion
on what you should do.

[DrRobert]

Thanks, hate to replace stuff I already bought but sounds like it might be a better idea than adding more speakers to what I already have.

[DrRobert]

Was also thinking of adding a second sub to the trunk as I almost always have the SW volume turned all the way up. I could add a 10" version of the same 12" sub I already have if I put one of these on the other side of my trunk:



Is that a good idea or should I try a different 12" sub in the enclosure I already have. I do like the sound of the Focal sub, it just doesn't go loud enough for me. And I'm not a bass head either (but I am a Deadhead! ).

[Wongway]

This shouldn't be taken as gospel, so take from it what you will:
I don't believe speakers like our 4" midranges will ever be designed to play well in and around the 300-80hz area. Even the most expensive ones I've ever seen simply don't have the proper physics (cone area, movement) to accurately reproduce sound in that region ("well"). If the 4" midranges were built to do so, I believe they'd require much deeper mounting space than our doors would allow. (or the doors would require some sort of modification)

I also don't believe that the two 8" woofers under the seats can ever accurately play proper "sub"woofer frequencies. The frequencies I'm thinking are in the 80-30hz area. To do so would (in my opinion) necessitate a redesign of the box/enclosure in that current well under the seats.

So, (again, this is my opinion only) for our cars (because other cars can have larger speakers like proper 5" to 6"x9" midrange drivers in their doors) only, I think most of us should stick to finding a proper midrange driver in the 8" range under our seats to properly reproduce the mid"bass" sounds a lot of people complain about missing.

Ideally, you'd fill in the remaining true "sub" frequencies with a proper trunk subwoofer.

Adding another subwoofer can be even more detrimental (for the moment) because not only do you have to account for another source of sound for tuning issues, you'd also likely have to deal with cancellations because the waves impacting could cancel each other out.

Don't put the cart before the horse, and sort out exactly where the problems are first, before you start throwing more $$ at the issue and adding speakers to the mix.

Edit:
Also, for the best/true accurate subwoofer reproduction, I would think a well done infinite baffle setup like Kaigoss69 has somewhere in his post history is the best bet. Part of the problem for our E90's is that our trunks are very very well sealed from sound penetrating the cabin. (blame solid construction for that...) So you run into a see-saw war/balance. Run enough power for the subwoofer to be loud enough to penetrate the cabin, but rattle the crap out of your car. Or, run the proper power to the subwoofer and get good sound, but resign yourself to never hear the full potential because part of the sound is locked in the trunk.

edit:
@DrRobert: If it helps your understanding of your issues at the moment.
Your desire to toss more speakers into the mix would be analogous to wanting to stuff 2 Supercharged and chipped 4 cylinder engines into one car and trying to get everything to work in harmony together.

[DrRobert]

Originally Posted by Wongway

This shouldn't be taken as gospel, so take from it what you will:
I don't believe speakers like our 4" midranges will ever be designed to play well in and around the 300-80hz area. Even the most expensive ones I've ever seen simply don't have the proper physics (cone area, movement) to accurately reproduce sound in that region ("well"). If the 4" midranges were built to do so, I believe they'd require much deeper mounting space than our doors would allow. (or the doors would require some sort of modification)

I also don't believe that the two 8" woofers under the seats can ever accurately play proper "sub"woofer frequencies. The frequencies I'm thinking are in the 80-30hz area. To do so would (in my opinion) necessitate a redesign of the box/enclosure in that current well under the seats.

So, (again, this is my opinion only) for our cars (because other cars can have larger speakers like proper 5" to 6"x9" midrange drivers in their doors) only, I think most of us should stick to finding a proper midrange driver in the 8" range under our seats to properly reproduce the mid"bass" sounds a lot of people complain about missing.

Ideally, you'd fill in the remaining true "sub" frequencies with a proper trunk subwoofer.

Adding another subwoofer can be even more detrimental (for the moment) because not only do you have to account for another source of sound for tuning issues, you'd also likely have to deal with cancellations because the waves impacting could cancel each other out.

Don't put the cart before the horse, and sort out exactly where the problems are first, before you start throwing more $$ at the issue and adding speakers to the mix.

Edit:
Also, for the best/true accurate subwoofer reproduction, I would think a well done infinite baffle setup like Kaigoss69 has somewhere in his post history is the best bet. Part of the problem for our E90's is that our trunks are very very well sealed from sound penetrating the cabin. (blame solid construction for that...) So you run into a see-saw war/balance. Run enough power for the subwoofer to be loud enough to penetrate the cabin, but rattle the crap out of your car. Or, run the proper power to the subwoofer and get good sound, but resign yourself to never hear the full potential because part of the sound is locked in the trunk.

Agreed. That's why I was thinking I might be able to fit a pair of proper midrange drivers on the rear ledge behind the back seats. Since they are pointing up at the back window wouldn't the sound bounce toward the front of the car? And if I tuned them for the lower end of midrange where my system is lacking (and don't install tweeters with them) wouldn't directionality be less of an issue than it is with the 4" mids and tweeters in the front door?

Regarding the trunk sub, my car does have the split folding rear seats, so I think for now at least I'll just put them down more often so the bass can get into the main cabin more easily. Doesn't sound like throwing more bass in the trunk will necessarily solve the problem.

[Wongway]

Originally Posted by DrRobert

Agreed. That's why I was thinking I might be able to fit a pair of proper midrange drivers on the rear ledge behind the back seats. Since they are pointing up at the back window wouldn't the sound bounce toward the front of the car? And if I tuned them for the lower end of midrange where my system is lacking (and don't install tweeters with them) wouldn't directionality be less of an issue than it is with the 4" mids and tweeters in the front door?

Regarding the trunk sub, my car does have the split folding rear seats, so I think for now at least I'll just put them down more often so the bass can get into the main cabin more easily. Doesn't sound like throwing more bass in the trunk will necessarily solve the problem.

Timing and phase can still be detected by some people's ears as low as 100hz. (if I remember right)

Say for example, (because I know I have the numbers wrong here...) you're playing a song where the bass guitar is slapping his bass where the attack of the note hitting the strings starts at (say...) 250hz, but the note rumbles out around 180hz. I can't imagine the annoyance of trying to set the DSP right, so that a speaker next to you and the speaker behind you on the back deck aren't causing a strange phase spread where you'd hear the initial hit in front of you but getting the sensation that it's coming from behind you as well. <---- that's probably explaining the issue in a really sloppy 'unedumacated' way too...


edit:
I've sung in bands, performed in concert halls, etc. So I've probably had a bit more first hand experience in knowing that sound doesn't travel as fast as light. Sure, sound bounced up can eventually hit your ears, but the timing of it arriving properly is really annoying. I once sang (wierd promo...) at an ice rink before a hockey game. As I was walking away from the band, I couldn't see the bassist/guitarist playing, so I was singing along with what I "heard", but the sound coming out was starting to seem "off" the farther I got from the band, till I turned back around and realized that what I was hearing wasn't completely in sync with where/when the players were actually attacking their instruments.

[Rialas]

Get a nice balance and turn the volume down. You'll get more out of tuning your ears and adapting to a system than trying to appreciate 1000watts in the car.

[Nelson@BimmerTech]

Originally Posted by Wongway

This shouldn't be taken as gospel, so take from it what you will:
I don't believe speakers like our 4" midranges will ever be designed to play well in and around the 300-80hz area. Even the most expensive ones I've ever seen simply don't have the proper physics (cone area, movement) to accurately reproduce sound in that region ("well"). If the 4" midranges were built to do so, I believe they'd require much deeper mounting space than our doors would allow. (or the doors would require some sort of modification)

I also don't believe that the two 8" woofers under the seats can ever accurately play proper "sub"woofer frequencies. The frequencies I'm thinking are in the 80-30hz area. To do so would (in my opinion) necessitate a redesign of the box/enclosure in that current well under the seats.

So, (again, this is my opinion only) for our cars (because other cars can have larger speakers like proper 5" to 6"x9" midrange drivers in their doors) only, I think most of us should stick to finding a proper midrange driver in the 8" range under our seats to properly reproduce the mid"bass" sounds a lot of people complain about missing.

Ideally, you'd fill in the remaining true "sub" frequencies with a proper trunk subwoofer.

Adding another subwoofer can be even more detrimental (for the moment) because not only do you have to account for another source of sound for tuning issues, you'd also likely have to deal with cancellations because the waves impacting could cancel each other out.

Don't put the cart before the horse, and sort out exactly where the problems are first, before you start throwing more $$ at the issue and adding speakers to the mix.

Edit:
Also, for the best/true accurate subwoofer reproduction, I would think a well done infinite baffle setup like Kaigoss69 has somewhere in his post history is the best bet. Part of the problem for our E90's is that our trunks are very very well sealed from sound penetrating the cabin. (blame solid construction for that...) So you run into a see-saw war/balance. Run enough power for the subwoofer to be loud enough to penetrate the cabin, but rattle the crap out of your car. Or, run the proper power to the subwoofer and get good sound, but resign yourself to never hear the full potential because part of the sound is locked in the trunk.

edit:
@DrRobert: If it helps your understanding of your issues at the moment.
Your desire to toss more speakers into the mix would be analogous to wanting to stuff 2 Supercharged and chipped 4 cylinder engines into one car and trying to get everything to work in harmony together.

You're giving great solid advice! i cosign almost everything you have posted! the only thing i disagree is that there are plenty of solid 4" midrange drivers that play extremely well in that range. the problem is most of them are not plug and play and like you said they require modifications. We've had a lot of success with the Jehnerts and Gladen mid-ranges. for plug and options you won't anything better than those 2 brands.

[DrRobert]

Sounds like I should maybe consider the Jehnert fronts+underseat kit and not just the underseats. Is this the right one?:

http://www.jehnert.de/en/shop/doorbo...-3-5-7-series/

[Wongway]

Originally Posted by DrRobert

Sounds like I should maybe consider the Jehnert fronts+underseat kit and not just the underseats. Is this the right one?:

http://www.jehnert.de/en/shop/doorbo...-3-5-7-series/

No need to go full ham. While I'm not a huge fan of Focals, you already got the components for the front (correct?), so no need to toss those out. Just simply get the Jehnert 8" woofers.

I'm not sure if I'm remembering wrong, but I "think" Gladden makes a decent 8" woofer that goes under the seats that's also well reviewed as well. There's one other (German Maestros?) that I can think of, but I think it requires a lot of modification, so most people will skip that option.

6spdcoupe at Unexpected Creations should be able to source the Jehnerts for you pretty easily. I've dealt with him before in the past and he's a top notch guy.

edit:
Also, coming from my experience/viewpoint/whatever...
I've come to believe (yeah more opinion...) that you're much better off looking for the "surgical" solution rather than wholesale throwing parts at the problem. Given that I've heard even stock KIA speakers do amazing things with a proper DSP tune, I'm less inclined to believe anyone would necessarily "need" to replace all the stock speakers in a car. Try to identify exactly where your gaps are first, before deciding to throw parts at it. You've already gotten better than anyone else's average with the Focal's component set, don't be so quick to throw those away first when they probably aren't the problem.

[DrRobert]

Originally Posted by Wongway

No need to go full ham. While I'm not a huge fan of Focals, you already got the components for the front (correct?), so no need to toss those out. Just simply get the Jehnert 8" woofers.

I'm not sure if I'm remembering wrong, but I "think" Gladden makes a decent 8" woofer that goes under the seats that's also well reviewed as well. There's one other (German Maestros?) that I can think of, but I think it requires a lot of modification, so most people will skip that option.

6spdcoupe at Unexpected Creations should be able to source the Jehnerts for you pretty easily. I've dealt with him before in the past and he's a top notch guy.

edit:
Also, coming from my experience/viewpoint/whatever...
I've come to believe (yeah more opinion...) that you're much better off looking for the "surgical" solution rather than wholesale throwing parts at the problem. Given that I've heard even stock KIA speakers do amazing things with a proper DSP tune, I'm less inclined to believe anyone would necessarily "need" to replace all the stock speakers in a car. Try to identify exactly where your gaps are first, before deciding to throw parts at it. You've already gotten better than anyone else's average with the Focal's component set, don't be so quick to throw those away first when they probably aren't the problem.

Yes I already have the Focal components in the front doors, and Focal 8" under seats as well.

[Nelson@BimmerTech]

Originally Posted by DrRobert

I have a Mosconi DSP, it has a protune and the tune has been revised at least once based on what I reported above. Car is still lacking in midbass despite focal underseat speakers. I still have the OEM HK rear door and deck speakers, am thinking of dropping something else in there (without tweeters on the rear deck) and retune to try to fill in the midrange with more depth.

I also have the 12" focal subwoofer cranked up all the way much of the time. I do like the way it sounds, but often wish I could turn it up louder (and that's with a dedicated 500W Mosconi class D amp running it). Again, that might be due to the music I listen to not having been recorded with a lot of bass. If I play some reggae or my kids' hip hop there is plenty of bass, but not enough for my liking with other stuff (i.e. older rock music). I'm trying to decide whether to add a second SW or swap out the focal for another 12" sub that might sound better.

Who tune you car? I've heard plenty of cars that had a "professional tune" that sounded horrible. Your issue is clearly a tuning a problem not equipment. You also might want to invest in the mosconi dsp controller.