[DrewKo]

JB is a very limited product made by an enthusiast (I think his day job is computer-related) without similar tuning background or knowledge to Shiv and the Vishnu group. For its price, JB2 seems to function, but relies on the car's ECU to control timing. Thus, there are serious limits to what it will be capable of producing. A true tune involves more than increasing boost--also involves adjusting timing, fuel, etc. JB2 I believe adjusts fuel only, but Procede appropriately adjusts all necessary parameters and that is one reason why Procede will continue to develop better, safer tuning and control, along with more power. Thus, a Procede is, in my opinion, in a completely different class in all aspects. I would also consider a Turbo Tuner before a JB2 since they perform about the same based on the videos on this site.

[munters]

Originally Posted by DrewKo

JB is a very limited product made by an enthusiast (I think his day job is computer-related) without similar tuning background or knowledge to Shiv and the Vishnu group. For its price, JB2 seems to function, but relies on the car's ECU to control timing. Thus, there are serious limits to what it will be capable of producing. A true tune involves more than increasing boost--also involves adjusting timing, fuel, etc. JB2 I believe adjusts fuel only, but Procede appropriately adjusts all necessary parameters and that is one reason why Procede will continue to develop better, safer tuning and control, along with more power. Thus, a Procede is, in my opinion, in a completely different class in all aspects. I would also consider a Turbo Tuner before a JB2 since they perform about the same based on the videos on this site.

+1
In addition the control of both solenoid sensors is important for me. And the full Vanos (Valve) control in the future. This means for me investing in longterm reliability and the way the Car behaves is a time comparison between Fred Flintstone and Star Wars.

[Acap14]

Go with PROcede.

[Sniz]

+1

[silvrevo]

Happy Dyno Numbers,,,,,,,,,,,,, that changed my day, I was kinda crappy , now Im giddy........ Thanks Man.

Plus , to help this more , Has anyone actually ran these at the track yet?

I know there was talk about it, but I guess nothing happened.

Its pretty easy guys and gals, Just set these two products up at the track and find out some 13 seconds latter what is what, and maybe where the exta grand went?

Im Just Sayin'.

[dpeterson]

I got the jbs2 for a few reasons. one price, second it performs well. I dont care about terry's past on the boards. i've heard horror stories about shiv on the evo boards so i think they are even in that regard.

I personally dont want to mess with maps, throwing cels, limpmodes, tweaking and all that stuff, just a cheap boost. now the car feels like it should have been from the factory. down the road, who knows, but for 350 i'm going fast now not waiting 2 months for v2.

In the end buy what you want to buy, it's your dollar, just realize there is a cheaper alternative to procede, that produces similar performance.

dave

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by dpeterson

I got the jbs2 for a few reasons. one price, second it performs well. I dont care about terry's past on the boards. i've heard horror stories about shiv on the evo boards so i think they are even in that regard.

I personally dont want to mess with maps, throwing cels, limpmodes, tweaking and all that stuff, just a cheap boost. now the car feels like it should have been from the factory. down the road, who knows, but for 350 i'm going fast now not waiting 2 months for v2.

In the end buy what you want to buy, it's your dollar, just realize there is a cheaper alternative to procede, that produces similar performance.

dave

Keep telling yourself that And just what "horror stories" are you referring to?

[down4it]

Originally Posted by dpeterson

I got the jbs2 for a few reasons. one price, second it performs well. I dont care about terry's past on the boards. i've heard horror stories about shiv on the evo boards so i think they are even in that regard.

I personally dont want to mess with maps, throwing cels, limpmodes, tweaking and all that stuff, just a cheap boost. now the car feels like it should have been from the factory. down the road, who knows, but for 350 i'm going fast now not waiting 2 months for v2.

In the end buy what you want to buy, it's your dollar, just realize there is a cheaper alternative to procede, that produces similar performance.

dave

No not similar performance at all, its more like a 1/4 of the performance...

[De90man]

I've had two out of the three piggybacks in question...FK what anyone says about who, how or why,..JB2 is a great product. Period.

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by DrewKo

JB is a very limited product made by an enthusiast (I think his day job is computer-related) without similar tuning background or knowledge to Shiv and the Vishnu group. For its price, JB2 seems to function, but relies on the car's ECU to control timing. Thus, there are serious limits to what it will be capable of producing. A true tune involves more than increasing boost--also involves adjusting timing, fuel, etc. JB2 I believe adjusts fuel only, but Procede appropriately adjusts all necessary parameters and that is one reason why Procede will continue to develop better, safer tuning and control, along with more power. Thus, a Procede is, in my opinion, in a completely different class in all aspects. I would also consider a Turbo Tuner before a JB2 since they perform about the same based on the videos on this site.

Yes, a true "tune" does involve more than raising boost, which is just another reason that the SSTT is inferior to all the products mentioned in this thread. Its also the one that most utilizes the ECU's timing failsafes. The JB negates the vast majority of the timing pull by richening the mixture slightly. ALL of them "rely on the car's ECU for timing control" which is the reason why even the procede will make more power on 93.

[j|rz44]

So over these NUB ass threads...

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by dpeterson

In the end buy what you want to buy, it's your dollar, just realize there is a cheaper alternative to procede, that produces similar performance.

dave

Appreciate your input, but in this case I believe you get what you pay for. If you want close to or equal procede v1.47 speed for cheap, go with the JB2. The truth is it's really just a resistor box that Terry put together in his garage after picking Shiv's brain on this forum for months asking how things worked (That's not a dig at Terry, just what happend). To me procede is much more than that.

It's good that there is competition, but I think there is one that is superior to others at any given time, just like other computer hardware and software. You will have options for budget minded people, and the others who want the latest and greatest.

[dpeterson]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Keep telling yourself that And just what "horror stories" are you referring to?

i will while i count my $1100 i didnt spend on your product. it's good enough for me, why start in with the smart a$$ remark?

I'm not going to get into it or start a war, i'll leave it at that. I do think it's funny how someone on this board asks about opinions, and when given it's not for the procede, everyone gets up in arms.

dave

[MBMWTECH]

Originally Posted by Goodfella69

Can someone please help me justify someone spending an extra 1k on the procede instead of spending 350 for the jbs2? I'm still trying to figure that out after reading alot on this forum and on and other! The performance is the same basically. I know that vishnu has alot more experience etc etc... But what else? Sorry for all the newb questions but i'm just trying to figure it out.

I'd suggest (if possible) test driving 2 different cars 1 with procede and 1 with the jb. Also I'd probably listen to the people that have had both - they can give you a fair assessment of both.

To be honest I wish I had all these choices when I bought procede - now dont get me wrong I love my procede but if you can get nearly the same performance out of both why not save the $$. Its really based on your $ situation 1300 is alot (to most) to shell out at one time.

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by scottp999

The truth is it's really just a resistor box that Terry put together in his garage after picking Shiv's brain on this forum for months asking how things worked (That's not a dig at Terry, just what happend). To me procede is much more than that.

The truth is that you really don't know what you are talking about. Chatting about possible schemes and actual implementation are quite different. The justification that Shiv "taught" Terry how to build a JB is laughable.

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by A418t81

The truth is that you really don't know what you are talking about. Chatting about possible schemes and actual implementation are quite different. The justification that Shiv "taught" Terry how to build a JB is laughable.

I think you are mis-informed. Terry stated the month you joined this board that he watched a tuner and was sticking with business software. The truth is the truth. His product is fine, telling people he has 13 years of "domestic" experience and impying it is with tuning cars is mis-leading. This is based on his statements on this board.

Originally Posted by turbocoins
I'm waiting for the Terry tuner, v. 1.0.

Originally Posted by Terry335

Heh I watched a tuner break apart a factory tune and develop a reflash, and let me tell you, its a lot of work! I'll stick with business software.

from thread: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59754

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by scottp999

I think you are mis-informed. Terry stated the month you joined this board that he watched a tuner and was sticking with business software. The truth is the truth. His product is fine, telling people he has 13 years of "domestic" experience and impying it is with tuning cars is mis-leading. This is based on his statements on this board.

Originally Posted by turbocoins
I'm waiting for the Terry tuner, v. 1.0.



from thread: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59754

No, you are misinformed. Terry is talking about a REFLASH, as in the factory ECU is reprogrammed with the proper maps edited. This is NOT an easy thing to implement at all, with the actual tuning being the easiest part of the whole process. Decrypting the code, forcing the ECU into boot strap, figuring out a way around the check sums, deciphering the addresses of the maps, figuring out the flow logic, etc, etc, etc...that is the difficult part and what Terry was referring to.

Building a piggyback, massaging inputs and monitoring the outputs is as simple as it gets as far as tuning a vehicle. As I said before, the actual tuning of the vehicle is the easiest part.

As far as his 13 years of tuning cars, thats the truth. He has laid it out over on the bimmerfest, do a search. And it wasn't "tuning" business software.

[scottp999]

On your other comment about it being laughable that Shiv taught Terry about anything:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
The baro sensor does read boost, but only a few psi. So it's important to make sure both MAP sensors provide similar readings up to this point. Or else, a plausability code will be triggered and/or suspicious data will be logged in the ECU.

-shiv

Originally Posted by Terry335

Hi Shiv, do you know this relationship between the ECU and the map sensors as a fact or are you speculating? OK if you are, just want to know.

Thanks,

Terry

from: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...t=63509&page=4

or

Originally Posted by Terry Burger
In doing a little research here, it looks like all you need to do to adjust the boost level is to manipulate the MAP signal. Is it a standard 2 bar (0-5v) type sensor? Has anyone (that isn't trying to make money off it) tried this yet?

I know going crazy without adjusting the target AF ratios and/or timing would be silly, but it sounds like you can get away with a nice 2-3psi bump with the stock setup.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Without adjustments to fuel and timing, that 2-3psi bump in power is going to dig right into the margin of safety that BMW left in the tuning. Really not a good idea in my opinion. Especially for a car that runs so lean from the factory. But what you are proposing is easy to do. All you need to do is isolate the signal wire in the MAP sensor (simple 0-5v) and attenuate the signal a bit (perhaps 10%).-shiv

Originally Posted by Terry Burger
I know what you mean. I don't see how the car is running 14-15:1 AF ratios under boost, but I guess BMW knows something I don't.

How robust is the factory knock detection system?

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

It only runs that AFR in the low to midrange for maximum on boost fuel economy and emissions since EGT isn't too much of a concern at those engine speeds. Up top, it richens up to 13:1 which is lean by conventional standards. Then again, the stock engine is only make 100hp/liter (something that many modern engines come close to making without turbochargers) so it can get away with such stingy fuel mapping. Early in our xede development, we were at a point where we only had control over boost and timing and we found that the car was very inconstant and ping prone with the factory fuel mapping when asked to run higher boost (not exactly surprising). Factory knock control system is reasonably good as long as the tuning is reasonably good. It wont cover up a bad tune

-shiv

Originally Posted by Terry Burger
Yeah, the PROcede system really is the ideal solution. I just wish it was more readily available.

I could see using the system to simulate a "lean cruise" mode under high vacuum situations to save a few dollars on gas, taking advantage of the o2 sim feature to gut all the cats (for off-road use only, of course), using it to trigger an akly system when in a higher boost tune, etc.

Going to do another dyno day in LA anytime soon? =)

Unrelated topic, but I thought I read that the PROcede system always has battery power? That sounded a little odd to me. What happens if the battery is disconnected? Does the car really check reference points when the engine is off, or is it just taking awhile for the PROcede to boot up correctly on the switched power?

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Hi Terry,
The PROcede does, in fact, induce a slightly leaner cruise condition. It also bumps up timing a low loads. This is how we get 2-3mph improvement during highway cruise conditions. We leave the PROcede powered on since the stock ecu does do seemingly random sensor checks. It does this by flicking on the power momentarily to read all relavent sensors. We wanted to make sure that all sensor rescaling functions are always working with no chance of miscalibration. There is very little current draw when the PROcede is in this stand-by mode. Way less than even a typical alarm system. Disconnecting the battery doesn't cause any problem since doing so also prevents the ECU from flicking on the power for the sensor check. It's just one of the things we learned during our beta process. There are some other advantages of keeping the PROcede constantly armed but they will be more obvious later when we enable a few new functions.

-shiv

from: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50957 A post that Terry says on Bimmerfest was the start of his development on the Terry Tunner/JB.


Anyway, I looked over at bimmerfest through about 9 pages of search results on Terry's posts and did not come up with anything. If you know a particular thread where he talks about his 13 years, please PM it to me.

Playing with cars and being in business as a tuner are two different things. Has he been selling tunes for 13 years? What other cars has he worked on for customers? Look forward to your PM, as it will clear things up for me. My apologies to Terry will be forthcoming if his experience is validated. That's my only real problem with his claims, I think he has a good product.


edit: Found the link to his experience claims in the other post, thanks: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...7&postcount=13
Thanks,
Scott

[Vyruz Reaper]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Keep telling yourself that And just what "horror stories" are you referring to?

bro stop it... it irritates me every time you keep on denying this

[DrewKo]

Originally Posted by scottp999

I think you are mis-informed. [/url]

scottp999, I agree 100%. I am very glad you still have those posts from Burger back when he was bilking Shiv for knowledge that he then turned into JB1 (by cutting the wires just outside the ECU!). I remember when he was pretending to be this nice guy just so Shiv would educate him about how the N54 signal processing functioned. What a sleazeoid. What Shiv told him became JB!!

I could care less about his product, I would never buy anything from Burger even if it was the best performing and cheapest product. It is only the cheapest product, but no where near the performance of Procede and not even in the same ball park as Procede V2. I guess some things are worth the money and worth waiting for, while others are not. JB2 is not a tuning product and relies on the ECU for any alleged "tune." It will therefore always be limited and inferior to Procede. Any comments to the contrary are just plain wrong. Ask Terry--he'll agree if he's honest.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by Rips335iCoupe

I say get the PROcede, but wait until version 5.26. I hear that is when on the limp modes will be fixed, and HP/TQ ratings will be 595/700.

PROcede V2 is fine with v2.0.1. Just use the default torque settings and good gas.

- Eugen