[doughboy]

Always a good discussion....

The point is who gives a toss how fast the shifts are? It's obvious a computer controlled box is quicker than a human, that's why f1 use them, not because they are "better" or offer more interaction or enjoyment but because they are quicker to shift.

Enjoying driving craft means savouring slower, measured shifts, with a quick blip, or a double declutch for extra blips, you brain and skills carrying out all the tasks (not very well I might add). Learning with time. Timing the declutch over a pothole or banding or humpback bridge, all things you can never do in a 2 pedal car.

An "easy access" box adds no enjoyment to driving for me and many others. Pressing buttons to ask a computer to change gear for you maybe useful on a track or If you only have 1 leg, but at any other time it's dull play station driving.

"Look daddy I'm just like an F1 driver me...."

[laddington]

Yup, would agree. Have the Sports Auto with Alpina flash in mine, and would say whilst it's a good all round option, it's a compromise.

When cracking on, I don't get the same satisfaction with gears that I got from my previous manual cars, even though I typically manually change with the flappy paddles (although less so since I flashed the gearbox to the Alpina firmware, Sports mode is now fantastic).

However, when stuck in traffic, or just getting from A to B with the kids (screaming) in the back, it's nice to only have two pedals.

That said, I don't think I'd go back to a manual. Maybe if I bought a coupe of some sorts, but that's not going to happen any time soon.

[Lewiss]

Originally Posted by doughboy

Always a good discussion....

The point is who gives a toss how fast the shifts are? It's obvious a computer controlled box is quicker than a human, that's why f1 use them, not because they are "better" or offer more interaction or enjoyment but because they are quicker to shift.

Enjoying driving craft means savouring slower, measured shifts, with a quick blip, or a double declutch for extra blips, you brain and skills carrying out all the tasks (not very well I might add). Learning with time. Timing the declutch over a pothole or banding or humpback bridge, all things you can never do in a 2 pedal car.

An "easy access" box adds no enjoyment to driving for me and many others. Pressing buttons to ask a computer to change gear for you maybe useful on a track or If you only have 1 leg, but at any other time it's dull play station driving.

"Look daddy I'm just like an F1 driver me...."

How are you finding the transmission in your AMG monster? still not a double clutch convert then?

[zltm089]

Originally Posted by djgandy

And you do have control over the gears in the DCT. It has full manual mode where the driver is responsible for changing gears! How is this not control?

The only thing you can't do though is money shift. So if the definition of control to you is the ability to completely wreck your engine with by selecting the wrong gear then no the DCT does not offer that useless feature.

can you tell me how your car will behave, lets say you're driving fairly slowly at 30mph...and you're in 5th or (even) 6th gear......and you suddenly floor the throttle.

Will the car, "quickly" down shift and off you go like a bitch?

or

will the car, just go "slowly" ( as in, it stays in 5th gear) and really really slowly gain speed?

....remember optimum "performance" gear at 30mph would be 2nd ( or even 1st depending on engine)

[no1_jazz]

Guys I must firstly thank you all for the informative input. It is great to read up on all your thoughts on the two transmissions.

As some of you have mentioned the best way to choose is to actually go ahead and drive both and there after make my mind up. The added problem here is that no dealer is willing to let you test drive a car for more than Five minutes all around 30mph zones. I have already test driven a 335i manual and for me that felt near on perfect.

I myself have always driven a manual and have always found it a pleasure to be in control of my vehicle. I don't want to get the words 'in control' muddled up here:

What I mean by I feel in control more so than driving an auto is:
==============================================

- There is naturally more human interaction with the car.
- When driving a manual your mind is or at least always should be thinking and connecting with the whole dynamics of the vehicle in every gear.
- You are naturally using more of your brain power to focus on control and the drive line in every gear.
- Driving in traffic is always a pain when having a manual but i do not mind this.
- Driving a Manual gives you more of a challenge to shift as good as you can (not to be better then the dct) but to enjoy the experience.
- Much more driver involvement.

Why because:
==========

- A little more comfort in traffic with an auto im sure will costs allot more in repairs had anything go wrong.
- There is more to go wrong with the DCT then there is with the Manual
- Clicking fingers on shift paddles seems some what dis connective and reminds me of my PS1 and PS2 steering wheel controller on my video games.
- With the DCT the drive line is begin controlled for you so that you can focus on your line if you are racing that is.

I totally understand as technology has moved so far on from the traditional manual and now we have been introduced to DCT which is controlled by computer code and is only as good as the programmer who has coded it. Surely works well and I actually commend BMW for their efforts.

I understand and could imagine that the DCT box disconnects you in some ways from the 'Real driving Experience' and there for gives you yes quicker shift ratios and increased straight line speeds but then at the same time your mind has less to be in control off and for me its all about being more in control when driving a BMW and or any car for that matter.

I know I sound all for the Manual here but I am still sure to give the DCT a run for its 'Quality' and see how i get on with it all.

Question:

1: Is it me or did BMW not make the same amount of Manual 2010 335i coupes as they did DCT ? I just cant seem to be finding any at all. I have found many DCT versions but having said that every time i call again to book in a test drive it is often sold.

Thanks again for all your input so far.

Regards
J

[djgandy]

Originally Posted by zltm089

can you tell me how your car will behave, lets say you're driving fairly slowly at 30mph...and you're in 5th or (even) 6th gear......and you suddenly floor the throttle.

Will the car, "quickly" down shift and off you go like a bitch?

or

will the car, just go "slowly" ( as in, it stays in 5th gear) and really really slowly gain speed?

....remember optimum "performance" gear at 30mph would be 2nd ( or even 1st depending on engine)

Well my car is a manual, so it will just chug along till about 40 where it will start to pick up some pace. The DCT will do the same if you want to drive it in manual mode.

5 -> 2 is near instant in the DCT. 5->3 is different because they are on the same drive shaft, although I think the DCT does "magic" in some cases. There is a good article somewhere on how the transmission works. I think I read that when you shift it actually can have both clutches engaged simultaneously that hand over the gear change and not have any interruption while the gear changes. Obviously the clutches will be slipping until the next gear is fully engaged, but we are talking time scales of 20-30ms here.

A few articles, not the ones I wanted though.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1.../edit?hl=en_GB
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=N...ipping&f=false

[ndj]

LOL, this is starting to sound like the never ending EDC vs. non-EDC "debate" on M3 Cutters

For those who haven't lived with a DCT equipped car your input is only opinion, not advice

[no1_jazz]

Originally Posted by ndj

LOL, this is starting to sound like the never ending EDC vs. non-EDC "debate" on M3 Cutters

For those who haven't lived with a DCT equipped car your input is only opinion, not advice

Finding one is not a problem. The problem is trying to go ahead and test drive the dam thing they all seem like hot cakes that just come and go.

And as for the Manual they all seem fairly non existent in the sales market. I have driven a few and I am very much content with it however I am now on the search to go ahead and test drive a DCT and come to my own conclusion.

Let this long and tiresome search continue.

How many manual and dct 335i's were shiped over here in the UK ?

[djgandy]

Originally Posted by no1_jazz

Finding one is not a problem. The problem is trying to go ahead and test drive the dam thing they all seem like hot cakes that just come and go.

And as for the Manual they all seem fairly non existent in the sales market. I have driven a few and I am very much content with it however I am now on the search to go ahead and test drive a DCT and come to my own conclusion.

Let this long and tiresome search continue.

How many manual and dct 335i's were shiped over here in the UK ?

All roughly 09 onwards 335i's are either Manual or DCT. Obviously it depends on the build date and not the reg date, but that is a rough guide (there are some 58 plate DCT's).

There should be more and more around in the next months/year as those cars are now reaching the 5 year old mark and there is the new 4 series so people will start to trade in.

[no1_jazz]

Originally Posted by djgandy

All roughly 09 onwards 335i's are either Manual or DCT. Obviously it depends on the build date and not the reg date, but that is a rough guide (there are some 58 plate DCT's).

There should be more and more around in the next months/year as those cars are now reaching the 5 year old mark and there is the new 4 series so people will start to trade in.

Thanks.. Yes the new 4 series is now out and slowly filling the roads of London. Not seen many about as of yet but i'm sure in the next few months we all should see more of them.

I am out in the market for a grey and or white 335i coupe from 2010 on wards. I have seen many 08 Plates for the 10k to 13k mark. I guess its just a matter of time until owners start trading up with their much loved 3 series for the 4.

cheers pal.

[doughboy]

OP - agree test drive is the way, but you'll find a manual 335i pretty rare. I bought mine new in 2009 as I couldn't find a used one and then the bloke who bought it off me last summer had been looking for one for 9 months!

From your words about driving manual in post 37, i'd say manual all the way for you, The 335i in particular suits the manual box very well, it has a wide torque spread and will smoothly pull 20-120 in 4th gear easily, so you don't need lots of gear changes if you don't want to. The 335i manual box is the same box used in the US only manual version of the V10 M5, so it's more than up to it.

Originally Posted by Lewiss

How are you finding the transmission in your AMG monster? still not a double clutch convert then?

Thanks for asking!

In fact the AMG MCT7 box is not a double clutcher (common misconception), it's a normal planetary autobox with a wet "start up" clutch instead of a torque convertor, and 7 other smaller wet clutches to "select" each gear, thus the name MCT7 or "multiclutch transmission 7 speed". It enables much quicker full bore shifting (100ms) and gives all the smoothness of a regular auto when pottering about.

Merc/AMG don't do any DCT boxes except in the SLS gullwing.

Whatever the name, it only has 2 pedals, so no I don't like it, but i'll put up with it.

Originally Posted by ndj

For those who haven't lived with a DCT equipped car your input is only opinion, not advice

Yes it's always opinion as it's such a divisive topic.

There is no need to "live" with any gearbox of any name. I've driven loaned modern M3 DCT and Porsche PDK and owned AMG fancy Auto, Audi DSG, VW DSG and they are all the same in that car has only got 2 pedals. end of story.


No amount of hi-tech stuff, shift speed, smoothness of take up etc etc will ever compensate for the lack of a clutch pedal. They are just dressing mutton up as lamb.

I have a 557bhp 5.5 V8 AMG and a 70bhp 1250cc diesel Peugeot bipper van - which do you think is the most engaging and fun to drive? That's right the van - and that's because its a manual.....

[zltm089]

Originally Posted by djgandy

Well my car is a manual, so it will just chug along till about 40 where it will start to pick up some pace. The DCT will do the same if you want to drive it in manual mode.

5 -> 2 is near instant in the DCT. 5->3 is different because they are on the same drive shaft, although I think the DCT does "magic" in some cases. There is a good article somewhere on how the transmission works. I think I read that when you shift it actually can have both clutches engaged simultaneously that hand over the gear change and not have any interruption while the gear changes. Obviously the clutches will be slipping until the next gear is fully engaged, but we are talking time scales of 20-30ms here.

A few articles, not the ones I wanted though.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1.../edit?hl=en_GB
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=N...ipping&f=false

what?!!!! ...after all this talk, i though you had a DCT!!!....

[djgandy]

Originally Posted by zltm089

what?!!!! ...after all this talk, i though you had a DCT!!!....

I said in the very first post I have a Manual. I think the DCT is great though and the box to get. I don't really get the argument that a Manual puts you more in control and then people will go fit a diff, when in reality a real man should be using a live rear axle and using the throttle to control the rear tyres and drive his car properly.

[zltm089]

doh! i didn't read properly!

[Lewiss]

Originally Posted by zltm089

can you tell me how your car will behave, lets say you're driving fairly slowly at 30mph...and you're in 5th or (even) 6th gear......and you suddenly floor the throttle.

I was cruising at 35 in 7th gear this morning, and when i put my foot down it quickly switched to 2nd gear and took off!

[no1_jazz]

Originally Posted by doughboy

OP - agree test drive is the way, but you'll find a manual 335i pretty rare. I bought mine new in 2009 as I couldn't find a used one and then the bloke who bought it off me last summer had been looking for one for 9 months!

From your words about driving manual in post 37, i'd say manual all the way for you, The 335i in particular suits the manual box very well, it has a wide torque spread and will smoothly pull 20-120 in 4th gear easily, so you don't need lots of gear changes if you don't want to. The 335i manual box is the same box used in the US only manual version of the V10 M5, so it's more than up to it.

Yeah I can only be sure of what I have always known and having always owned a manual I can relate to the driving experience.

I am hoping I can find a DCT to test drive and really give it a good run and then hopefully make up my mind.

The coupés are very hard to find especially in Manual.

[ndj]

Originally Posted by doughboy

There is no need to "live" with any gearbox of any name.

Disagree. Any mechanical system has characteristics and idiosyncrasies. That's not just the 'box in isolation but the engine/'box combination.

It takes time to learn and understand those, the various adjustable parameters, and the outcome of your inputs. The way I drive my M3 DCT is completely different today to the day I picked it up two years ago.

I moved from 2 E39 M5's to an E90 M3 DCT and would never go back (from a gearbox perspective). My opinions are just that of course.

On a separate but related note, it does make me chuckle the crap I read on many forums about heel & toe, rev matching, etc. As a professional driver trainer I know two things, 1) there's no place nor need for those on public roads, and 2) those who chaff-on about it typically don't have a clue.

[djgandy]

Originally Posted by ndj

On a separate but related note, it does make me chuckle the crap I read on many forums about heel & toe, rev matching, etc. As a professional driver trainer I know two things, 1) there's no place nor need for those on public roads, and 2) those who chaff-on about it typically don't have a clue.

So you're telling us that going from 1.5krpm to 4.5krpm should just be a case of select gear and drop clutch? Shudder you may, but clutches/DMF's are expensive.

No one was going on about heel and toe, just that you need to blip the revs when going from cruise gears to acceleration else you'll be going from pretty much idle to 4k+ RPM which is not a lot different to a hard launch.

[ndj]

Originally Posted by djgandy

So you're telling us that going from 1.5krpm to 4.5krpm should just be a case of select gear and drop clutch? Shudder you may, but clutches/DMF's are expensive.

No one was going on about heel and toe, just that you need to blip the revs when going from cruise gears to acceleration else you'll be going from pretty much idle to 4k+ RPM which is not a lot different to a hard launch.

Not telling you anything fella (I charge for that ), nor did I say anyone was going on about "it" here.

My point was the crap I read on car forums justifying "this or that" based on practices that should be reserved for a track, by drivers who's self image is typically greater than their driving talent.

[DavS1]

My last car was auto with padle shift, my new car is DCT.....I would NOT buy another manual car unless it was something I wanted that didn't come with a good auto/dct box i.e. an old cossie or 200sx etc....

clutch up, clutch down etc etc in traffic.....that's enough to put anyone off after driving a good auto/dct.

[zltm089]

Originally Posted by Lewiss

I was cruising at 35 in 7th gear this morning, and when i put my foot down it quickly switched to 2nd gear and took off!

Were you in "M" or manual mode as they call it?

if yes, then

that's my point.....DCT doesn't provide that much control of the gears then.

interesting that it "allowed" you to cruise in 7th gear though....

in a normal auto 335i, when i select 6th gear and if the speed is not "high" enough, it will revert back to 4th or 5th.

[zltm089]

Originally Posted by ndj

Disagree. Any mechanical system has characteristics and idiosyncrasies. That's not just the 'box in isolation but the engine/'box combination.

It takes time to learn and understand those, the various adjustable parameters, and the outcome of your inputs. The way I drive my M3 DCT is completely different today to the day I picked it up two years ago.

I moved from 2 E39 M5's to an E90 M3 DCT and would never go back (from a gearbox perspective). My opinions are just that of course.

On a separate but related note, it does make me chuckle the crap I read on many forums about heel & toe, rev matching, etc. As a professional driver trainer I know two things, 1) there's no place nor need for those on public roads, and 2) those who chaff-on about it typically don't have a clue.

Agree to some extent.

I've had my car for like 4/5 years now and you do learn more about your car over time. When I first picked up the car from the dealer....i didn't know about the dtc button, all i remember was the flashing light on the dash when i was flooring it. Didn't even know what it was!!!...I was clueless!

On the topic of clueless people on forums, loads about! Just like when people say that a "gearbox" is so great etc but when in fact, it's the CAR itself which is "great" but they don't know how to isolate the gearbox from the rest. Eg people commenting on how good the M3, new porky GT3 or GTR are.... for a fair comparison, they should be driving a manual v/s a dct gearbox under same condition/ car.