[skinrock]

Originally Posted by michael1284

dang...don't yall work or anything? been going at it all day haha...

Either they forgot, or they have President's Day off (like me )

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

So what you are saying that every knock is the same. correct?

I am saying that severity of knock increases with boost.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

K Count being knock count

In the case of this datalog;

This car does not alter ignition from knock, so its imperative the ignition is SPOT ON.

As you can see here, this is the PROPER way to tune vehicle as there is absolutely no knock present.

I made an extra graph on top to show that there is 0 knock.

3rd gear pull, WOT

Is this from a honda? I have a heavily modified RX7 so I don't need schooling in this regard and I grasp tuning basics and even monkeyed around with my PFC and datalogit back in the day. I'm thinking direct injection is a different animal altogether.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Litos

my STi was a ProTuned Cobb with a 20G, fmic, DW750's and meth. it didn't knock at all due to the fact that it was ProTuned. then i went with an OpenSource tune and picked up an additional 23whp and 28ftlbs with zero knock as well.

my first SRT4 was running 16psi with 100 shot from the bottle. knock sensor was clear "most" of the time. when it would start knocking, i'd back it up. i'd lower the boost to 14psi (stock boost) and knock would dissapear (thank you Aeroforce Scan Gauge)

second SRT4 had basic boltons on the stock turbo - it was my daily driver for about a month before i traded it in for the 335.

i've been in the SRT4 game since 2004 and can tell you that 380-420whp is very common, and has been since late 2003, especially seeing as how amazing the aftermarket is for these cars. bigger turbo such as an AGP 50 trim or a Borg Warner Kit, injectors, TBE and tune (DiabloSport and SCT)


SRT4 - agreed

STi makes @ 230whp and i've seen quite a few 350-370whp STi's that last a long time. my car STILL has the 20G and has been making @ 130whp over stock for 4 years. engine is the weakpoint, but there shouldn't be any reason why the STi can't handle 150whp over stock.

and the EVO - i'm going to have to disagree seeing as the stock 2.0L 4g63 can handle EVEN MORE POWER than the STi - the stock turbo is much bigger also.

i live in Houston so i see PLENTY of high horsepowered EVO's, STi's and SRT4's running around. Houston is a massive city with plenty of wide open highways, HAHA !!!!

Houston's highways are like a drag strip every weekend ..

Was just there a few months ago.

Originally Posted by Clap135

I am saying that severity of knock increases with boost.

I am saying that you can't provide data showing this? The knock sensors will have lowered timing before the more severe knock has occurred.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by ianthegreat

JP, please dont tell me you are talking about the guy who cracked his turbo exhaust manifold and you are equating knock to this, the same guy who had overheating/water pump issues, the same guy who told us he ran no meth failsafes...

I'm not talking about him.

The guy was asking about enrita and the other guy that blew their motors. He said they had no failsafes. They did have failsafes. Whether there was adequate meth flow or the failsfes were on or the settings were appropriate is a different story.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Litos

my STi was a ProTuned Cobb with a 20G, fmic, DW750's and meth. it didn't knock at all due to the fact that it was ProTuned. then i went with an OpenSource tune and picked up an additional 23whp and 28ftlbs with zero knock as well.

my first SRT4 was running 16psi with 100 shot from the bottle. knock sensor was clear "most" of the time. when it would start knocking, i'd back it up. i'd lower the boost to 14psi (stock boost) and knock would dissapear (thank you Aeroforce Scan Gauge)

second SRT4 had basic boltons on the stock turbo - it was my daily driver for about a month before i traded it in for the 335.

i've been in the SRT4 game since 2004 and can tell you that 380-420whp is very common, and has been since late 2003, especially seeing as how amazing the aftermarket is for these cars. bigger turbo such as an AGP 50 trim or a Borg Warner Kit, injectors, TBE and tune (DiabloSport and SCT)


SRT4 - agreed

STi makes @ 230whp and i've seen quite a few 350-370whp STi's that last a long time. my car STILL has the 20G and has been making @ 130whp over stock for 4 years. engine is the weakpoint, but there shouldn't be any reason why the STi can't handle 150whp over stock.

and the EVO - i'm going to have to disagree seeing as the stock 2.0L 4g63 can handle EVEN MORE POWER than the STi - the stock turbo is much bigger also.

i live in Houston so i see PLENTY of high horsepowered EVO's, STi's and SRT4's running around. Houston is a massive city with plenty of wide open highways, HAHA !!!!

I was in houston 2 weeks ago actually, but besides the point. None of those car are doing this on stock turbos that are overspun and relying on knock sensors.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

1) Do timing dips constitute knock and/or are they an indication that damage is being done to your motor. No.
2) Is avoiding them a best practice for producing consistent power? Yes.
3) Does the JB4 have a mechanism to detect these dips and learn tuning that will proactively avoid them. Yes, it is being tested/developed now.
Mike

Do you think that a tune that has no good way of monitoring, detecting and reacting to these dips is an acceptable method of extracting 100 more hp output?

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Do you think that a tune that has no good way of monitoring, detecting and reacting to these dips is an acceptable method of extracting 100 more hp output?

Do you want to talk about 13.5 PSI or 20+ PSI?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Litos

my STi was a ProTuned Cobb with a 20G, fmic, DW750's and meth. it didn't knock at all due to the fact that it was ProTuned. then i went with an OpenSource tune and picked up an additional 23whp and 28ftlbs with zero knock as well.

my first SRT4 was running 16psi with 100 shot from the bottle. knock sensor was clear "most" of the time. when it would start knocking, i'd back it up. i'd lower the boost to 14psi (stock boost) and knock would dissapear (thank you Aeroforce Scan Gauge)

second SRT4 had basic boltons on the stock turbo - it was my daily driver for about a month before i traded it in for the 335.

i've been in the SRT4 game since 2004 and can tell you that 380-420whp is very common, and has been since late 2003, especially seeing as how amazing the aftermarket is for these cars. bigger turbo such as an AGP 50 trim or a Borg Warner Kit, injectors, TBE and tune (DiabloSport and SCT)


SRT4 - agreed

STi makes @ 230whp and i've seen quite a few 350-370whp STi's that last a long time. my car STILL has the 20G and has been making @ 130whp over stock for 4 years. engine is the weakpoint, but there shouldn't be any reason why the STi can't handle 150whp over stock.

and the EVO - i'm going to have to disagree seeing as the stock 2.0L 4g63 can handle EVEN MORE POWER than the STi - the stock turbo is much bigger also.

i live in Houston so i see PLENTY of high horsepowered EVO's, STi's and SRT4's running around. Houston is a massive city with plenty of wide open highways, HAHA !!!!

So what your saying your cars were tuned correctly.

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Is this from a honda? I have a heavily modified RX7 so I don't need schooling in this regard and I grasp tuning basics and even monkeyed around with my PFC and datalogit back in the day. I'm thinking direct injection is a different animal altogether.

Direct injection has its benefits because of the increased cooling charge in the combustion chamber, what does not change is the fact that limiting knock is still common practice in direct injection.

Regardless of direct injection or not, a knock sensor, that is detecting knock, is still KNOCK. So knocking on any engine is the same.

As you know, Knock causes extreme wear and tear and pressures in the engine.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Houston's highways are like a drag strip every weekend ..

Was just there a few months ago.




I am saying that you can't provide data showing this? The knock sensors will have lowered timing before the more severe knock has occurred.

What data do you need, you want data, fill up two ballons, one half way, and the other all the way. Now pop them both, which one blew up "harder"?

Why did it blow it harder? becuase it had more pressure.
What do you do by raising boost, you are adding pressure.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Clap135

A stock care knocks at stock boost in those horrible conditions. What is you point, thats the point of the knock sensor, to save the engine incase the customer finds himself driving in abnormal conditions. If you don't believe a knocking engine is destroying it self, then i simply dont know what to tell you. However I will ask you one question.


Take two bran new 335is, put one in the arizona desert and floor it till it breaks

The the other one and put it upstate new york, and floore it till it breaks.

Which engine will break first, assuming the engines are identical? The only changing conditions is that one is running in conditions that allow the knock sensor to constally drop timing due to knock, and the other is limited by stock timing curve.

My point is, a bmw engineer developed it this way. Don't you think the end product was taken to a desert and floored over and over again until they were sure it wouldn't break for at least 50K miles? And it still knocks, just as you logged? I think whether you are in NY or AZ the car knocks because it is always on edge. Why pick on timing? What about AFR?

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

So what your saying your cars were tuned correctly.



Direct injection has its benefits because of the increased cooling charge in the combustion chamber, what does not change is the fact that limiting knock is still common practice in direct injection.

Regardless of direct injection or not, a knock sensor, that is detecting knock, is still KNOCK. So knocking on any engine is the same.

Every knock is not the same...

The theory of what a knock is, all the same correct.

Originally Posted by Clap135

What data do you need, you want data, fill up two ballons, one half way, and the other all the way. Now pop them both, which one blew up "harder"?

Why did it blow it harder? becuase it had more pressure.
What do you do by raising boost, you are adding pressure.

laloosh's testing, popping balloons..

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Houston's highways are like a drag strip every weekend ..

Was just there a few months ago.




I am saying that you can't provide data showing this? The knock sensors will have lowered timing before the more severe knock has occurred.

On low boost.... it SHOULD. Keyword should.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

So what your saying your cars were tuned correctly.



Direct injection has its benefits because of the increased cooling charge in the combustion chamber, what does not change is the fact that limiting knock is still common practice in direct injection.

Regardless of direct injection or not, a knock sensor, that is detecting knock, is still KNOCK. So knocking on any engine is the same.

As you know, Knock causes extreme wear and tear and pressures in the engine.

Again, so BMW designed it this way? i.e. a stock car that knocks. I think heat soak could get you to the same IATs pretty quick, but still the engines don't fail.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

On low boost.... it SHOULD. Keyword should.

And as it seems (with the thousands of JB users) It DOES.

If you want to take the car past the OEM "ranges" you need to make adjustment accordingly.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Again, so BMW designed it this way? i.e. a stock car that knocks. I think heat soak could get you to the same IATs pretty quick, but still the engines don't fail.

Stock Evo's knock too.

The difference is, that knocking on "stock boost" is not as SEVERE, as knocking when you throw in 2x more boost and don't lower the timing set point.

What you have there, again, anyone with tuning knowledge would agree, is playing with fire.

Again, there are motors out there that cannot even handle these "low severity" knocks that are still being preached. So to say, they dont matter, is not true.

Ive said it all along, this community is lucky this engine is stout.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

And as it seems (with the thousands of JB users) It DOES.

If you want to take the car past the OEM "ranges" you need to make adjustment accordingly.

MY posts were never about JB. Just about tuning theories in general.

This case hasnt been around long enough to know much about limits.

Edit- you said it yourself, adjustments should be made accordingly.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Every knock is not the same...

The theory of what a knock is, all the same correct.





laloosh's testing, popping balloons..

It is intended for dumb people. What do you think happens in a cylinder? Combustion, the more air/fuel the more combustion, if you knock, all that combustion is now pushing against the piston as it is still going up. The differences of this happening on low/high boost, should be painfully clear. But obviously, you need ballons to understand it.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

Stock Evo's knock too.

The difference is, that knocking on "stock boost" is not as SEVERE, as knocking when you throw in 2x more boost and don't lower the timing set point.

What you have there, again, anyone with tuning knowledge would agree, is playing with fire.

Again, there are motors out there that cannot even handle these "low severity" knocks that are still being preached. So to say, they dont matter, is not true.

Ive said it all along, this community is lucky this engine is stout.

Is there ANY Data of the "severity" of the knock's at each programed PSI that comes with the JB4?

[Litos]

Originally Posted by Clap135

I was in houston 2 weeks ago actually, but besides the point. None of those car are doing this on stock turbos that are overspun and relying on knock sensors.

even though i agree, the original post i quoted didn't mention "stock turbos"

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Houston's highways are like a drag strip every weekend ..

Was just there a few months ago.

and this is a fact. i'm 31 years old now and have gotten out of the whole "acting like a jackass on the street" phase. but yes, Houston is a big ol city with a lot of stupidly fast cars.

too much money + country livin + wide open streets = lets go racing boys !!!

Originally Posted by JPSlick

So what your saying your cars were tuned correctly.

i'm not the expert on that, but i WILL say that my SRT4 and my STi weren't NEARLY as sensitive as the Bimmer is

it's unfortunate because i was really excited about getting my 335.

[Move.Over]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

I guess my confusion stems from the fact that I always thought more boost=more tendency to knock, not necessarily that more boost=worse knock. I'm just asking for proof of this because if it's common knowledge then a link should be easy to provide.

To my limited thinking the cylinder pressures during combustion easily dwarf even a 10psi boost difference. I CAN see that a 10psi boost difference CAN mean the difference between knock or no knock.

Heck, I have an RX7, the most fragile turbo motors known to man. I was right there with you-KNOCK is bad! We also thought you had to run a 10 AFR to keep things safe as well as timing retard etc.

Then I see the stock log you post where a stock motor knocks all the time and I read elsewhere that the AFRs are near stoich!? What's next the world is really flat?

So instead of ad hominem attacks, how about the proof (education) we're looking for?

Edit: I'm beginning to wonder if these newer direct injection cars are designed to run "on the edge" all the time to provide the best mix of economy/power?

Yes they are, one thing many people forget, Turbo DI engines don't knock as easily as regular Turbos. With the later the fuel is part of the air entering the combustion chamber and enters it earlier. With DI engines the ECU can control the time of fuel injection more precisely and therefore run leaner with less knock.

[Forcefed3]

Clap does start a lot of trouble, but he does seem to know what he is talking about.