[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well, on a platform basis just their respective large body-on-frame pickups/large body-on-frame SUV. So, just one ICEV platform each.

The connection is: "EV are the future" and "Level 5 autonomy is the future", so EV w/ Self-Driving is the future.

While it's great to have technological goals, some are silly pipe dreams. They are silly because the technology they are replacing is already very good and the cost and societal impact are are not worth any perceived improvement either will bring.

Well I guess we went from an EV bashing thread to a self driving bashing thread. Might as well just make it a technology bashing thread to cover all bases.

I'm sure people thought the horse and buggy were perfectly fine and trying to come up with some self propelled contraption was just a silly pipe dream. I'm sure the same can be said for most technology.

BTW the only person I know claiming FSD is the be all end all and claiming it will be here next year is Musk. Everyone I know including some Tesla fanbois all think FSD is bs and not happening anytime soon.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

There was an article I read about an EV that would not sop (brakes not working), and kept driving. Worse still, the driver could not shut it down.

He managed to steer it into the back of a truck (with the help of the local law enforcement) that allowed him to slow down and stop.

Now imagine these cars with everything done through software, including steering. That sounds like a recipe for your car killing you. Better still, imagine someone being able to hack the car remotely and assume control over it?

Post #4341

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

There was an article I read about an EV that would not sop (brakes not working), and kept driving. Worse still, the driver could not shut it down.

He managed to steer it into the back of a truck (with the help of the local law enforcement) that allowed him to slow down and stop.

Now imagine these cars with everything done through software, including steering. That sounds like a recipe for your car killing you. Better still, imagine someone being able to hack the car remotely and assume control over it?

It doesn't stop with EV's, hacking a target in an EV for instance by a hit man. Who says it's unlikely to happen.

[gblansten]

I drove home from the airport last night in my Tesla and nothing caught fire and no phantom braking and no animals were harmed. I always follow ASPCA guidelines when driving my car.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Well I guess we went from an EV bashing thread to a self driving bashing thread. Might as well just make it a technology bashing thread to cover all bases.

I'm sure people thought the horse and buggy were perfectly fine and trying to come up with some self propelled contraption was just a silly pipe dream. I'm sure the same can be said for most technology.

BTW the only person I know claiming FSD is the be all end all and claiming it will be here next year is Musk. Everyone I know including some Tesla fanbois all think FSD is bs and not happening anytime soon.

The horse and buggy as a comparative technology analogy is at first a tired counterpoint and second not applicable to EV vs. ICEV discussions regardless. If EV takes over from ICEV under natural market conditions and progression then great, but that is not what is happening.

If the person who essentially created Tesla into what it is today believes FSD is the solution to a safer driving environment and other manufacturers are following Tesla, then it seems the INDUSTRY believes FSD (and its copies) is the solution.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The horse and buggy as a comparative technology analogy is at first a tired counterpoint and second not applicable to EV vs. ICEV discussions regardless. If EV takes over from ICEV under natural market conditions and progression then great, but that is not what is happening.

If the person who essentially created Tesla into what it is today believes FSD is the solution to a safer driving environment and other manufacturers are following Tesla, then it seems the INDUSTRY believes FSD (and its copies) is the solution.

Just because it's true doesn't make it "tired". As of right now there is no EV mandate, which I also don't agree with, so most people buying EVs are doing so because they find it to be a compelling product. As for EV credits, while I don't agree with them, a lot of EVs do not qualify and Tesla had no credits for the past like 2 years and they still sold like hot cakes. You could offer a $15k tax credit on a minivan and I still wouldn't buy one... because it sucks.

As for FSD I don't know what you mean, but just because some people believe it's the future doesn't mean it's the now. I don't know what your point is there. The technology will suck before it stops sucking... that's how technology usually works. LED light bulbs were horrible garbage when they came out. Now I don't think I own any incandescent bulbs and I don't miss them at all.

[TheWatchGuy]

Self driving is the future whether you want it or not.

And honestly, as long as i can also drive myself if i want to, bring it on.

Ford's bluecruise is great for long highway drives and I wont buy any car that cant drive itself on at least the highway.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Just because it's true doesn't make it "tired". As of right now there is no EV mandate, which I also don't agree with, so most people buying EVs are doing so because they find it to be a compelling product. As for EV credits, while I don't agree with them, a lot of EVs do not qualify and Tesla had no credits for the past like 2 years and they still sold like hot cakes. You could offer a $15k tax credit on a minivan and I still wouldn't buy one... because it sucks.

As for FSD I don't know what you mean, but just because some people believe it's the future doesn't mean it's the now. I don't know what your point is there. The technology will suck before it stops sucking... that's how technology usually works. LED light bulbs were horrible garbage when they came out. Now I don't think I own any incandescent bulbs and I don't miss them at all.

The horse and buggy theory that converting to (rudimentary) ICEV is the same as ICEV to EV is pure speculation. None of us were alive 120 years ago during the transformation, so no one has any idea the sentiments of the general population regarding the topic. And there are mandates in place because development cycles for automobiles take significant time, if not decades (especially for a new platform and propulsion architecture), so when madates are in place for 2030 and 2035 manufacturers have to plan far in advance. Reducing and eliminating the use of gasoline and diesel will have very large societal impacts that swapping a buggy from horse power to machine power did not have.

Comparing LED light sources to autonomous driving is completely ridiculous. When the technology is saftey-of-life technology it really can't "suck", because people die. For the past 15 years I was directly involved with introducing a new safety-of-life technology (that replaced existing technology). I can tell you we were not allowed to beta test our technology on the public. The technology was in the transportation industry. I pretty much have expert, firsthand experience on the topic. FSD isn't a fricking smart phone app.

[RM7]

OK boomer

[Tejas1836]

Without boomers, you wouldn't be driving that Bimmer or Camaro in a free country and Alaska would still belong to Russia.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The horse and buggy theory that converting to (rudimentary) ICEV is the same as ICEV to EV is pure speculation. None of us were alive 120 years ago during the transformation, so no one has any idea the sediment of the general population regarding the topic. And there are mandates in place because development cycles for automobiles take significant time, if not decades (especially for a new platform and propulsion architecture), so when madates are in place for 2030 and 2035 manufacturers have to plan far in advance. Reducing and eliminating the use of gasoline and diesel will have very large societal impacts that swapping a buggy from horse power to machine power did not have.

Comparing LED light sources to autonomous driving is completely ridiculous. When the technology is saftey-of-life technology it really can't "suck", because people die. For the past 15 years I was directly involved with introducing a new safety-of-life technology (that replaced existing technology). I can tell you we were not allowed to beta test our technology on the public. The technology was in the transportation industry. I pretty much have expert, firsthand experience on the topic. FSD isn't a fricking smart phone app.

Are you literally saying going from a horse and buggy to a gas vehicle had no societal impacts? We wouldn't be having this discussion at all and you wouldn't be losing your mind over EVs and FSD if we still had horse and buggies so essentially ALL the societal issues you're whining about with EVs and FSD can be directly traced back to the death of the horse and buggy. So honestly, you should sell your vehicles and start the horse and buggy renaissance.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Are you literally saying going from a horse and buggy to a gas vehicle had no societal impacts? We wouldn't be having this discussion at all and you wouldn't be losing your mind over EVs and FSD if we still had horse and buggies so essentially ALL the societal issues you're whining about with EVs and FSD can be directly traced back to the death of the horse and buggy. So honestly, you should sell your vehicles and start the horse and buggy renaissance.

Negative impacts from the perspective of the 21st century going forward. The tradeoffs are not worth it. Please do try to keep up.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Tejas1836

Without boomers, you wouldn't be driving that Bimmer or Camaro in a free country and Alaska would still belong to Russia.

Right, because Vietnam invaded North America and we bought Alaska from Russia in 1960.

[M5Rick]

Tes owner up north gets huge shock from dealer when his car won't go after a downpour and is told warranty doesn't cover it. Waited 5 hours for special EV recovery...bill is £17k.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/2441...in-break-down/

[gblansten]

https://www.mercedesmedic.com/myster...ical-problems/

[XutvJet]

The day supply of EVs on lots is approaching 100 days now while ICE supply is nearly half that. GM announced today that it is delaying plans to construct a EV truck factory given the EV sales downturn.

What is happening is that most EV supporting buyers already have their EVs now and buyers that are on the fence are tending to stick with ICE and hybrids because of the infrastructure concerns and ancillary costs like installing a charger in one's home and/or having readily available access to a charger. Also, EVs tend to be substantially more expensive than ICE vehicles. Once the tax credits go away, the demand could slide even further.

Again, EV are part of the automotive future. They are not the future. The 2030/35 mandates will be repealed. It's good to have goals in order push industry to do better, but the US and EU mandates have no chance. These mandates aren't even 2 years old now and countries and manufacturers are already now saying it's not possible. Duh. Idealism has no place in regulation.

[Canuck335]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

The day supply of EVs on lots is approaching 100 days now while ICE supply is nearly half that. GM announced today that it is delaying plans to construct a EV truck factory given the EV sales downturn.

What is happening is that most EV supporting buyers already have their EVs now and buyers that are on the fence are tending to stick with ICE and hybrids because of the infrastructure concerns and ancillary costs like installing a charger in one's home and/or having readily available access to a charger. Also, EVs tend to be substantially more expensive than ICE vehicles. Once the tax credits go away, the demand could slide even further.

Again, EV are part of the automotive future. They are not the future. The 2030/35 mandates will be repealed. It's good to have goals in order push industry to do better, but the US and EU mandates have no chance. These mandates aren't even 2 years old now and countries and manufacturers are already now saying it's not possible. Duh. Idealism has no place in regulation.

I don’t think it has to do idealism any more.
The manufacturers see a path to greater profits with EV’s. They’re cheaper to design and build, and they can charge the same if not more money for them.
Governments are just riding the coattails of this, claiming they’re doing something about global warming.

You may still be able to buy a ICE car in 2035, but it will be expensive and impractical to own. Gas stations will be scarce, gas will be expensive, there will be fewer mechanics willing and able to work on the car, etc.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by Canuck335

You may still be able to buy a ICE car in 2035, but it will be expensive and impractical to own. Gas stations will be scarce, gas will be expensive, there will be fewer mechanics willing and able to work on the car, etc.

ICE ICE Baby

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Canuck335

I don’t think it has to do idealism any more.
The manufacturers see a path to greater profits with EV’s. They’re cheaper to design and build, and they can charge the same if not more money for them.
Governments are just riding the coattails of this, claiming they’re doing something about global warming.

You may still be able to buy a ICE car in 2035, but it will be expensive and impractical to own. Gas stations will be scarce, gas will be expensive, there will be fewer mechanics willing and able to work on the car, etc.

You must be kidding.

[Canuck335]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

You must be kidding.

I am not. What part of “manufacturers make more money on EVs” did you not understand?

[Canuck335]

[QUOTE=Car-Addicted;30577270]ICE ICE Baby

More like

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Canuck335

I don’t think it has to do idealism any more.
The manufacturers see a path to greater profits with EV’s. They’re cheaper to design and build, and they can charge the same if not more money for them.
Governments are just riding the coattails of this, claiming they’re doing something about global warming.

You may still be able to buy a ICE car in 2035, but it will be expensive and impractical to own. Gas stations will be scarce, gas will be expensive, there will be fewer mechanics willing and able to work on the car, etc.

So far I believe Tesla and BYD are the only one's making a profit on per unit sales. Everyone else is hemorrhaging cash per car and may not stay alive long enough to make the ICE to EV transition. Ford, cough, Ford.