[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

What makes you think a proper sight picture isn't preferred? We are well aware that we're accountable for every round that leaves our duty weapon(s). You make it sound like we'd treat the decision to shoot in a wanton and reckless manner. Maybe there's something being lost in translation where this discourse is concerned.




Yes, we are trained to shoot in that general area as it's considered a good hit. Sure, there are more accuracy points awarded depending on impact zone (…when we are qualifying), but in a self defense situation, a good hit is a good hit. I would love to put you through a scenario and see how you do. You might be surprised.

You may be right that there is something lost in translation. In an ideal world you'd get a perfect sight picture of centre mass and the sun would be at your back, the temp would be a moderate 70F with perfect humidity and you'd have all the time in the world to make your decision to shoot or not, and your target would be standing perfectly still. Kind of like a paper range target. The fact remains, you will almost assuredly have to make a split second decision, in low light conditions, you'll likely be physically off balance, you will suffer tunnel vision and hearing depravation, your target will be moving and you'll have to take into account what's behind your target.....and you have 2.5 seconds to manage this decision and perform the task. And if you get your round(s) off and stop the threat you will then have to render first aid immediately, call for assistance, EMS, Supervisor, CIB and Ident. You'll have to coordinate all those resources as they arrive and also try to gather your thoughts to justify everything you just did. Oh, and don't use any profanity in the fight for your life because of cameras.

The point is the training and reality is that this is more than any range shooting, so when I said you don't get a perfect sight picture this is what I was referring too.

We trained to identify the threat, react, decide and discharge our firearm in short order. Winning the fight means stopping the threat, so getting rounds on target as quickly as possible is the objective. If you are shooting at a close range, obtaining a proper sight picture is likely not a great possibility if you want to survive.

Practice to improve all of your skills is important because what will happen in this situation is that you will rely on muscle memory as you likely won't have the time to do all those things consciously. As I said earlier, we often trained shooting in a dark range, with a set of roof lights providing our only light source, we would get a two or three second target exposure and be expected to issue the police challenge (create positive witnesses) or to fire a number of rounds before the target turned away. Some of this training involved shooting from the hip, zero sight picture, complete instinctive shooting. The idea being is to develop confidence with your firearm and try to prepare to win any fight you might find yourself in.

I will agree lots of cops don't shoot enough and aren't particularly good at it. They should be but as long as they qualify that's what's required. Having said that as was mentioned earlier, most people who shoot aren't terribly proficient with their tools, they might be confident but that isn't the same thing. Go to any range and this point will be bourn out quickly.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Murf993

You may be right that there is something lost in translation. In an ideal world you'd get a perfect sight picture of centre mass and the sun would be at your back, the temp would be a moderate 70F with perfect humidity and you'd have all the time in the world to make your decision to shoot or not, and your target would be standing perfectly still. Kind of like a paper range target. The fact remains, you will almost assuredly have to make a split second decision, in low light conditions, you'll likely be physically off balance, you will suffer tunnel vision and hearing depravation, your target will be moving and you'll have to take into account what's behind your target.....and you have 2.5 seconds to manage this decision and perform the task. And if you get your round(s) off and stop the threat you will then have to render first aid immediately, call for assistance, EMS, Supervisor, CIB and Ident. You'll have to coordinate all those resources as they arrive and also try to gather your thoughts to justify everything you just did. Oh, and don't use any profanity in the fight for your life because of cameras.

The point is the training and reality is that this is more than any range shooting, so when I said you don't get a perfect sight picture this is what I was referring too.

We trained to identify the threat, react, decide and discharge our firearm in short order. Winning the fight means stopping the threat, so getting rounds on target as quickly as possible is the objective. If you are shooting at a close range, obtaining a proper sight picture is likely not a great possibility if you want to survive.

Practice to improve all of your skills is important because what will happen in this situation is that you will rely on muscle memory as you likely won't have the time to do all those things consciously. As I said earlier, we often trained shooting in a dark range, with a set of roof lights providing our only light source, we would get a two or three second target exposure and be expected to issue the police challenge (create positive witnesses) or to fire a number of rounds before the target turned away. Some of this training involved shooting from the hip, zero sight picture, complete instinctive shooting. The idea being is to develop confidence with your firearm and try to prepare to win any fight you might find yourself in.

I will agree lots of cops don't shoot enough and aren't particularly good at it. They should be but as long as they qualify that's what's required. Having said that as was mentioned earlier, most people who shoot aren't terribly proficient with their tools, they might be confident but that isn't the same thing. Go to any range and this point will be bourn out quickly.

You articulated that wonderfully; better than I could have done. The first few paragraphs really describe(d) what the situation is like for us in the field, 100% of the time. This is what people fail to understand and it outlines everything they don't take into account as it pertains to an OIS.

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by Murf993

Moved to our new place this time last year. There are 3 range/clubs within an hours drive, not one is even taking names to go on their waiting list.

This makes me think that buying/building a range is a viable retirement income source.

I did go as an invited guest to a "friend of a friend" private range on a nearby farm one time. The owner makes a call to the local police beforehand as a heads-up, and sometimes they show up to partake in the activities. I blame an hour in the sun that day for my subsequent 7-week hospital stay, and have not tried to get another invitation since.....

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

This makes me think that buying/building a range is a viable retirement income source.

I did go as an invited guest to a "friend of a friend" private range on a nearby farm one time. The owner makes a call to the local police beforehand as a heads-up, and sometimes they show up to partake in the activities. I blame an hour in the sun that day for my subsequent 7-week hospital stay, and have not tried to get another invitation since.....

I would love to have a private range.

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I would love to have a private range.

I have yet to check the South Carolina laws, to see if I can set one up on our 5-acre retirement property. There's a natural backstop, so it wouldn't be a major project outside of cashing in early on the harvest of a few southern pine trees (the lot is currently a tree farm!) to clear a 100 yard lane.

Definitely a no-go in NY State, unless you have a *lot* of land to get the required spacings/buffers. We live surrounded by thousands of acres of county and state forests, and the town/state police would be here in minutes if someone discharged a firearm in our back yard. Given how difficult it was to get the coveted "golden ticket" (unrestricted CCW), the LAST thing that I want to do is make waves with the area LEO community.....

[Sedan_Clan]

Today was a good day….

[upstatedoc]

Give us the Deets when you're done with the paperwork

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by upstatedoc

Give us the Deets when you're done with the paperwork

My beat partner obs a car occupied by three males parked [facing the wrong direction] in a high crime area (…possibly casing). A DMV records check revealed the registration was expired nearly six months, so my partner - who had a civilian ride-along with him - effected a traffic stop. During a pat down of the driver at the hood of the patrol car, my partner found a gun in his waistband. My partner requested back-up and we rolled Code 3 to his location to extract the regaining passengers out at gunpoint.

The civilian was pretty shook up and was hiding behind a patrol unit. It got real!

[shoei]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Today was a good day….

Fucking jaywalkers. Amirite?!

[vreihen16]

From our region.....

https://www.insider.com/man-burst-in...ue-him-2021-11

[Sedan_Clan]

So I want to change direction a bit and add a different element to this thread. It has now become the "Ask a……AND Law Enforcement Scenario" thread. The scenarios will be critical thinking exercises for those with no law enforcement experience. I'm looking for step-by-step breakdowns and for the purpose of the exercises we'll assume you have all of the resources available (…SWAT, K9, Aero, Bomb Squad, etc……although in the real world that is not always the case). My purpose in each scenario will be to add complexity that will force you to make a difficult decision that you'll have to stand tall for. Sometimes it might be a shoot/don't shoot scenario and other times it could be some other impactful decision.

Critical thinking exercise #1:

You're a state Trooper and you obs a vehicle on the side of the road. It looks like the occupants of the vehicle are in distress. You make contact and you become aware that one of the occupants is mentally challenged and emotional. His movements potentially place him in danger of injuring himself or someone else. What would YOU do?!?!

[upstatedoc]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

From our region.....

https://www.insider.com/man-burst-in...ue-him-2021-11

I guess that wasn't too bright of him to douse himself and hand sanitizer…

[upstatedoc]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

So I want to change direction a bit and add a different element to this thread. It has now become the "Ask a……AND Law Enforcement Scenario" thread. The scenarios will be critical thinking exercises for those with no law enforcement experience. I'm looking for step-by-step breakdowns and for the purpose of the exercises we'll assume you have all of the resources available (…SWAT, K9, Aero, Bomb Squad, etc……although in the real world that is not always the case). My purpose in each scenario will be to add complexity that will force you to make a difficult decision that you'll have to stand tall for. Sometimes it might be a shoot/don't shoot scenario and other times it could be some other impactful decision.

Critical thinking exercise #1:

You're a state Trooper and you obs a vehicle on the side of the road. It looks like the occupants of the vehicle are in distress. You make contact and you become aware that one of the occupants is mentally challenged and emotional. His movements potentially place him in danger of injuring himself or someone else. What would YOU do?!?!

Call a social worker?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by upstatedoc

Call a social worker?

Nope! You're the LEO. Deal with it.

Social workers don't respond in the field and certainly won't be anywhere that isn't Code 4 (…like the side of the road with a person who isn't detained).

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Critical thinking exercise #1:

You're a state Trooper and you obs a vehicle on the side of the road. It looks like the occupants of the vehicle are in distress. You make contact and you become aware that one of the occupants is mentally challenged and emotional. His movements potentially place him in danger of injuring himself or someone else. What would YOU do?!?!

Sounds like a hostage situation to me. Run the plate to ensure that it isn't a media trap, then call for SWAT and let them take over the scene with a trained negotiator.....

[upstatedoc]

Taser Taser Taser!

But seriously sedan you have the advantage you were instructed on what you can and can't do at the roadside. I have no idea

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

Sounds like a hostage situation to me. Run the plate to ensure that it isn't a media trap, then call for SWAT and let them take over the scene with a trained negotiator.....

You confirm that it's just a mentally challenged person. What's your next course of action?

Originally Posted by upstatedoc

Taser Taser Taser!

But seriously sedan you have the advantage you were instructed on what you can and can't do at the roadside. I have no idea

A taser is a great option. That would bring the situation to a conclusion.

If the person had a confirmed heart condition and you were made aware, how would that change your course of action?


P.S. I fully acknowledge that you and/or other non-law enforcement personnel don't have the training. I just want to stimulate thought and I'm curious about the reasoning of the untrained. Many people love to quarterback the actions of police, so it's a great exercise to place yourself in the same position(s). Plus, it's fun for me to help educate. You never know, it might help you one day.

[vreihen16]

Pepper spray if required, tie them to a gurney, and ship them off by ambulance to the hospital ER until they can be seen by a psychologist.

I highly doubt that most police officers have the medical credentials to determine if someone's mental state is clinically wrong. Plus, are we even allowed to call someone mentally challenged in the PC world of 2021?????

[Fly320s]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

So I want to change direction a bit and add a different element to this thread. It has now become the "Ask a……AND Law Enforcement Scenario" thread. The scenarios will be critical thinking exercises for those with no law enforcement experience. I'm looking for step-by-step breakdowns and for the purpose of the exercises we'll assume you have all of the resources available (…SWAT, K9, Aero, Bomb Squad, etc……although in the real world that is not always the case). My purpose in each scenario will be to add complexity that will force you to make a difficult decision that you'll have to stand tall for. Sometimes it might be a shoot/don't shoot scenario and other times it could be some other impactful decision.

Critical thinking exercise #1:

You're a state Trooper and you obs a vehicle on the side of the road. It looks like the occupants of the vehicle are in distress. You make contact and you become aware that one of the occupants is mentally challenged and emotional. His movements potentially place him in danger of injuring himself or someone else. What would YOU do?!?!

Who is/are the other occupants? Seems to me that he/they (you never said how many occupants) have the responsibility to deal with the problem child. Let them handle it.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Fly320s

Who is/are the other occupants? Seems to me that he/they (you never said how many occupants) have the responsibility to deal with the problem child. Let them handle it.

The occupant is the father. You're on scene and you recognize there's a safety issue because of passing traffic (..and the father already articulated that his son has mental issues and jumped out of the car on the side of the road). There's potential liability for the department because you have been made aware, so you can't simply walk away without it coming back to bite you should something happen on the side of the road. Everything is being recorded on your body camera and vehicle GPS places you on scene (…as does the radio traffic you communicated over the air).

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

Pepper spray if required, tie them to a gurney, and ship them off by ambulance to the hospital ER until they can be seen by a psychologist.

I highly doubt that most police officers have the medical credentials to determine if someone's mental state is clinically wrong. Plus, are we even allowed to call someone mentally challenged in the PC world of 2021?????

Law enforcement aren't making clinical assessments like a doctor would, but based on 5150 WIC we make determinations based on the criteria of the code. An officer [in California] also receives mental health training in the course of becoming an officer (…and continuing training/education after having become sworn).

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Law enforcement aren't making clinical assessments like a doctor would, but based on 5150 WIC we make determinations based on the criteria of the code. An officer [in California] also receives mental health training in the course of becoming an officer (…and continuing training/education after having become sworn).

I've dealt with psychiatrists who after 3 weeks of seeing a detained patient couldn't make a diagnosis. Perhaps you guys in Cali use different terminology then we do in Canuckistan, but to me "mentally challenged" would be a clue.