[Sniz]

Originally Posted by TheTwinz

Uh, if you are implying what I think you are implying... then why the hell would Terry post the warning?? That kind of defeats the purpose of paying him to shut up now wouldn't it?

no, that would be a good CYA for Terry to do.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

Well if thats the case...I would cry mutiny because that BS being bought out like that!

Originally Posted by TheTwinz

Uh, if you are implying what I think you are implying... then why the hell would Terry post the warning?? That kind of defeats the purpose of paying him to shut up now wouldn't it?

LOL you guys have some vivid imaginations.

I just said think about it.

edit- Maybe he's embarrassed about it... who knows.

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Please cease and desist on the personal comments. No more derogatory crap will be tolerated. Just stop now, no retaliation.

If you want to comment on specific factual issues, great.

Maybe close this thread until the facts come out, then re-open it?

No evidence that a meth stoppage happened, no evidence of knock, no anything. Just presumptions.

23 pages of arguing over - quite literally - nothing.



Any tune pro/con discussion based on this failure (as of yet) is akin to name-calling.
We need the information first - then there is room to pass judgement.

Besides, statistically, there are not enough failures to determine a trend.

-scheherazade

[dzenno]

+100000 on closing this thread until we at least now some facts as to root cause(s)...

[Ilma]

Jumping to conclusions is the most exercise some people get around here.....

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

LOL you guys have some vivid imaginations.

I just said think about it.

edit- Maybe he's embarrassed about it... who knows.

Embarrassed? Why would he be...no reason to be. Shit happens but since he is a forum member he should be public with whats going on...period

[enrita]

well is good Terry warns on taking it easy with jb3 isnt it`all positive.....

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by enrita

well is good Terry warns on taking it easy with jb3 isnt it`all positive.....

What are you trying to say?

[scrufy]

WOW.
I'm seriously lmao. Holy jump to conclusions batman!
This thread has a life of its own now. Disregard the facts and just branch off in to all whatever....

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by enrita

well is good Terry warns on taking it easy with jb3 isnt it`all positive.....

English?

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by scrufy

WOW.
I'm seriously lmao. Holy jump to conclusions batman!
This thread has a life of its own now. Disregard the facts and just branch off in to all whatever....

Yeah, some speculation...but here is the post from Terry himself on N54 forum:

"Hey guys,

Just got some bad news today from a customer who took out his #6 ringland. He's running a modified 12 ohm board (duty cycle safety bypassed) with around 18.5-19psi on meth/pump and little taper. He has a meth failsafe connected but it's not clear whether it was enabled during the failure. He's been running a lot of boost for a long time.

Although this customer had a modified JB3 on the car at the time many with other tunes run around with 18+psi on meth/race gas with full advance (e.g. little to no CPS offset) as well. So consider this a general heads up to the high boost N54 community. If you're going to ask your car to give you 50-60% more power than stock it's not without its risks. Especially on pump gas and older motors. I'd now suggest keeping boost at 17psi or lower on meth+pump even if your timing indicates you can go higher."


There have been a few posts saying it was a cold start when the car went kaputz...but that hasn't been verified by the owner yet.....but Terry stated this in the thread. So the damage was already being done before the failure due to high boost, pump/meth and who knows what kind of detonation/timing issues. Bye-bye engine!

It just seems to me that running meth, high psi on stock engine with an aftermarket tune is likely asking for problems...like detonation and ringlands getting hammered. Just sayin'. Also, I've said it like 3 times in this thread, running meth is not a safe endeavor by any means at high boost and pushing the limits.

[packinDSS]

Originally Posted by packinDSS

Mike,

I haven't read this thread end to end LOL it’s too long. But it seems that we have had two engines blow up using JB3 and none using Procede? Granted it's debatable as to whether it was the JB3 or not..........

So my question is that if we were to fast forward a year from now and these numbers looked like this... JB3 6 engines failures, Procede 1. At this point would BMS acknowledge a problem? If not at what number would they? I would ask the same of Shiv or GIAC if their product was under this scrutiny.

This is a fair question.

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

There are two engines that blew up with the PROcede that I know of. On the two with the JB3 one was running large turbos > 20psi, the other 18-19psi, both relying on meth for octane. And if you read the first post it's a warning against running these power and boost levels long term. There are risks. There are many more JB3s out there than PROcede and many JB3 guys who really like to push things so I would not be surprised to see more failures in the aggressive group. If you want to play sometimes you gotta pay. If you want to be safe long term run default maps and lower power levels. It's really as simple as that.

Mike

Mike, So how many engine failures would it take before a vendor should acknowledge a problem. You never really answered this? Stand behind the faith and confidence of the product and give us a number?

10? 20? a Percentage? etc?

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by packinDSS

Mike, So how many engine failures would it take before a vendor should acknowledge a problem. You never really answered this? Stand behind the faith and confidence of the product and give us a number?

10? 20? a Percentage? etc?

The problem of a user modified tuning/boost control device?

If I sell you a drill designed to run on 110v household current, and you change the plug so you can run it on 220v because it runs way faster, and it ‘worked fine last time’ and you eventually blow it up whose fault is it?

[dzenno]

moderators, please close this thread now

[lyndon_h]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

The problem of a user modified tuning/boost control device?

If I sell you a drill designed to run on 110v household current, and you change the plug so you can run it on 220v because it runs way faster, and it ‘worked fine last time’ and you eventually blow it up whose fault is it?

I agree with you, but it sounds like BMS has given instructions on how to upgrade the board. So that muddies the waters a little more. Its like saying "there is a secret cod on your car. It will make your car have more power, but it could be dangerous. I've done it before, and I gotta tell you, its the bee's knees. Oh, if you do decide to do it anyway, the code is 'XXX'"

[lyndon_h]

Originally Posted by dzenno

moderators, please close this thread now

Why, its entertaining and we are playing nicely. If you don't want to view the thread, leave. My nice but slightly stern face is on

[AlterZgo]

Originally Posted by packinDSS

Mike, So how many engine failures would it take before a vendor should acknowledge a problem. You never really answered this? Stand behind the faith and confidence of the product and give us a number?

10? 20? a Percentage? etc?

It's not a vendor or BMS problem. Modifying a car for more boost/power is inherently less safe (not unsafe, just less so). If it was completely bullet proof, BMW would've allowed 14+ psi boost levels stock. When an individual decides to mod a car for more power... then takes the mod and modifies it even further beyond the original parameters of the mod itself, the only person responsible should be the owner.

Any of us increasing the boost on our cars (regardless of whether we go with BMS, Vishnu, GIAC or whoever) should be fully prepared to accept personal responsibility if we grenade the motor.

Now, if the JB3 malfunctioned and allowed 20 psi of boost when it should have limited boost to 17 psi, well, Terry would be responsible.

[BayMoWe335]

Acknowledge a problem? There is no problem. Modifying a car produces risks. Maybe there is a gray area if you're supposed to be running map 5 and the JB3 malfunctions and runs map 10, but that's hard to prove and so many variables can come into play. It's hard to pin responsiblity to someone other than yourself. I don't see a lot of people saying JB3, Procede, or other tunes are just flat malfunctioning. It's usually some special case with a lot of other variables. This is when I feel responsibility is ultimately on you.

It's not Shiv's, Mikes, or anyone's responsibility other than your own. You don't go BMW or Dinan, your warranty is in question and you'll be on your own.

[OpenFlash]

Offering AND recommending a tune to run high boost without any form of ignition tuning/knock monitoring is negligent. If you disagree, it's due to lack of experience/knowledge. The only reason that BMS has gotten away with it so far is because these motors are stronger than expected, built-in safety mechanisms surprisingly good and customers reasonably clueless about tuning.

Ask any other tuner, in any field, if doubling the boost with a boost controller is a sound tuning approach. And tell them that you are keeping octane and dme ignition advance targets unchanged. And listen to what they say. So tires that this is a "tuner debate" when it shouldn't even be a debate at all.

And yes, Sevak is seeking monetary rebursement from BMS. Rightfully so. If he gets what he is asking for, don't expect him to explain what happened. And don't expect him to keep his car.

Shiv

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Offering AND recommending a tune to run high boost without any form of ignition tuning/knock monitoring is negligent. If you disagree, it's due to lack of experience/knowledge. The only reason that BMS has gotten away with it so far is because these motors are stronger than expected, built-in safety mechanisms surprisingly good and customers reasonably clueless about tuning.

Ask any other tuner, in any field, if doubling the boost with a boost controller is a sound tuning approach. And tell them that you are keeping octane and dme ignition advance targets unchanged. And listen to what they say. So tires that this is a "tuner debate" when it shouldn't even be a debate at all.

And yes, Sevak is seeking monetary rebursement from BMS. Rightfully so. If he gets what he is asking for, don't expect him to explain what happened. And don't expect him to keep his car.

Shiv

LOL timing is retarded proportionally to boost levels with the JB3 the same as any other N54 tuning solution. As many BT scans have verified. Cars would not make it around the block with full advance on pump gas @ double the boost. Yet there are over 4000 out there running great. You like to argue proactive vs. reactive timing retard but your own logs show most of your customers are running a heavy reactive timing retard around peak torque. It's easy for those knowledgeable to see through the marketing spin.

Running 18-19psi on pump with a methanol safety system that is often disabled and when enabled is set too low has its risks. As I said even if everything is running great expecting the motor to last long at these power levels is asking a lot. If things were intended to last long at 440rw BMW would offer it from the factory.

Mike

[joyride]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Offering AND recommending a tune to run high boost without any form of ignition tuning/knock monitoring is negligent. If you disagree, it's due to lack of experience/knowledge. The only reason that BMS has gotten away with it so far is because these motors are stronger than expected, built-in safety mechanisms surprisingly good and customers reasonably clueless about tuning.

Ask any other tuner, in any field, if doubling the boost with a boost controller is a sound tuning approach. And tell them that you are keeping octane and dme ignition advance targets unchanged. And listen to what they say. So tires that this is a "tuner debate" when it shouldn't even be a debate at all.

And yes, Sevak is seeking monetary rebursement from BMS. Rightfully so. If he gets what he is asking for, don't expect him to explain what happened. And don't expect him to keep his car.

Shiv

You are stating a loaded question to your "ask any other tuner" comment. While yes, in general tuning theory, it's correct. But the thing is, the DME is not any other DME either. As you said, it's got surprisingly good built-in safety mechanisms, almost like BMW knew what they were doing with engine management. And while most of us are learning about tuning, you don't exactly lead the class. You seem more interested in hyping yourself and product then educating the community.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Offering AND recommending a tune to run high boost without any form of ignition tuning/knock monitoring is negligent. If you disagree, it's due to lack of experience/knowledge. The only reason that BMS has gotten away with it so far is because these motors are stronger than expected, built-in safety mechanisms surprisingly good and customers reasonably clueless about tuning.
Ask any other tuner, in any field, if doubling the boost with a boost controller is a sound tuning approach. And tell them that you are keeping octane and dme ignition advance targets unchanged. And listen to what they say. So tires that this is a "tuner debate" when it shouldn't even be a debate at all.

And yes, Sevak is seeking monetary rebursement from BMS. Rightfully so. If he gets what he is asking for, don't expect him to explain what happened. And don't expect him to keep his car.

Shiv

none of what has been said by people that are reasonable, and have some understanding of current automotive technology should be dismissed without valid examination of the subject.

there is so much to be learned in regard to engine operation, but is anyone willing to do so before they buy a car, part, or system? i would say not -- not from spite, but from experience.

in general a good majority of the people are attempting to tune their cars because they "heard" that is so easy with "this or that car" ... days have gone by when someone looked for the weakest car to use a starting point, and learn from there. learning HOW to make horsepower is not politically correct, and frowned on by the impatient crowd clamoring for their next horsepower fix.

I really believe that everyone can take some good away from this (except the guy that it happened to) whether the tune itself is the cause, or other contributing factors, learn that there are limits, dont follow the piped piper over the cliff just for the sake of a limited "provable" result.

good conduct is a rule of tuning, if you dont understand what an engine does, its hard to conduct yourself properly.

your engine is a symphony in progress, and the conductor is suppose to know whats going on.

my $.02