[AltecBX]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Yes, and by raising cylinder pressure it increases the severity of knock from a stock car.

Doesn't this happen more on 5 and 6?

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Yes, and by raising cylinder pressure it increases the severity of knock from a stock car.

But still the only data of this is "physics" WHICH WOULD BE CORRECT if the OEM knock sensor did not reduce timing before the N54 started heavily knocking.

I just got another AIM from Laloosh saying "thanks for the sig nub"

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by AltecBX

Doesn't this happen more on 5 and 6?

Not all cylinders can withstand the same timing curves, but yes 5 and 6 are known to run hotter.

[Willizm]

I read through the first 5 or so pages where Clap was making for some good conversation to now the end of this thread where he is reducing his arguments to childish banter. saying "end your life", "stop waisting my time", and "thats why you lost your jobs" is not helping this community. BTW, I love my cobb so don't think I'm a nutswinger trying to fling mud. I'm just wanting this thread to get back on track like the first half because the second half is turning out like Jerry Springer.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Clap135

To all the poeple who are clueless

http://forums.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=136

This was written by imo one of the best tuners in the states. If you think is hypothetical, end your life

great link and thanks. one problem, it is all about timing and says nothing about boost.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

But still the only data of this is "physics" WHICH WOULD BE CORRECT if the OEM knock sensor did not reduce timing before the N54 started heavily knocking.

Do you see what happens during all these drops? There are the same, they are all 3 degrees, they all look the same. Stock or tuned, they all look the same right? What makes you think the knock sensor can tell the severity of the knock? It simply cant. If you read the link i provided, and understand how pressure works, then you will understand that the knock event happening in a cylinder that has higher pressure is more sevre then a knock event happening in a cylinder that has less pressure.

Basic physics, which you most likly failed

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Well which is it? Is stock knock ok or not ok?

If you are trying to trick me or catch me in a lie, you are going to need to do better then that.

There are cars that knock stock. Yes.

Is it OK to the manufacturer? Need to ask them.

Is it ok for tuning in the enthusiast world.... NO

Some thick headed people around here.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

great link and thanks. one problem, it is all about timing and says nothing about boost.

Really!?!?! fuck me you guys are starting to aggrivate me. Timing/boost/fuel is all related. If you want, keep boost constant and playing with timing, or keep timing constant and play with boost, its the same result when it comes to knock.

lower boost, higher timing....knock
Higher boost, lower timing....knock

[SennaZ]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

Nice post, thats a good read.

I dunno, he doesn't know what MBT stands for.

Speaking of which, this whole argument about pulling timing either through some external device (piggy) or map table (flash tune system) is quite academic unless your system does it on a cylinder by cylinder basis. I think Rob pointed out that each cylinder can drop timing up to 6 degrees compared to the others.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Do you see what happens during all these drops? There are the same, they are all 3 degrees, they all look the same. Stock or tuned, they all look the same right? What makes you think the knock sensor can tell the severity of the knock? It simply cant. If you read the link i provided, and understand how pressure works, then you will understand that the knock event happening in a cylinder that has higher pressure is more sevre then a knock event happening in a cylinder that has less pressure.

Basic physics, which you most likly failed

You are right, the knock sensors do not care if you are running 8PSI or 13.5PSI all it does is if it sense's knock frequency's it will lower timing. Meaning that when you are at 8PSI and THE VERY SMALLEST OF KNOCK FREQUENCY happens it reduces timing, when that same knock frequency happens at 13.5PSI it reduces timing.

Originally Posted by Clap135

Really!?!?! **** me you guys are starting to aggrivate me. Timing/boost/fuel is all related. If you want, keep boost constant and playing with timing, or keep timing constant and play with boost, its the same result when it comes to knock.

lower boost, higher timing....knock
Higher boost, lower timing....knock

No need to start cussing. We might need to consider closing the thread before Chris/Laloosh/Clap goes out to his mazda buddies and kills someone with a metal bat

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Really!?!?! **** me you guys are starting to aggrivate me. Timing/boost/fuel is all related. If you want, keep boost constant and playing with timing, or keep timing constant and play with boost, its the same result when it comes to knock.

lower boost, higher timing....knock
Higher boost, lower timing....knock

LOL it's called effective compression ratio. And yes that is a big part of the method the JB4 uses to proactively avoid those drop outs when on the autotuning map.

Mike

[Alan l.]

Problem is that with the piggybacks the car still thinks it's only running 8psi of boost and not reacting how it should with 13.5psi.

Alan

[AltecBX]

on the bat. How you know is metal and not wood.

I've yet to understand how much knock is consider safe regardless how much boost you run?

[Forcefed3]

Clap, what would you do personally to better the JB4?

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

LOL it's called effective compression ratio. And yes that is a big part of the method the JB4 uses to proactively avoid those drop outs when on the autotuning map.

Mike

Problem is you only have control of one...

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

You are right, the knock sensors do not care if you are running 8PSI or 13.5PSI all it does is if it sense's knock frequency's it will lower timing. Meaning that when you are at 8PSI and THE VERY SMALLEST OF KNOCK FREQUENCY happens it reduces timing, when that same knock frequency happens at 13.5PSI it reduces timing.




No need to start cussing. We might need to consider closing the thread before Chris/Laloosh/Clap goes out to his mazda buddies and kills someone with a metal bat

BUt yet you fail to understand cylinder pressures affect detonation severity....

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

If you are trying to trick me or catch me in a lie, you are going to need to do better then that.

There are cars that knock stock. Yes.

Is it OK to the manufacturer? Need to ask them.

Is it ok for tuning in the enthusiast world.... NO

Some thick headed people around here.

So you know better than BMW. That's what I find so impossible to believe-in a nutshell. And no offense meant, really.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

Clap, what would you do personally to better the JB4?

either enable cps offseting or have ability to flash different timing curves.

[Black Gold]

FACTS for the benefit of InCityPhoto

-BMW 335is runs more boost than a stock 335i

-BMW 335is runs a set timing maximum of 3 degrees lower than 335i

-JB3 runs more boost than 335i and 335is on even most basic maps

-JB3 runs same timing maximum as 335i, 3 degrees higher than 335is

-Procede/Cobb/GIAC run higher boost than 335i/335is

-Procede/Cobb/GIAC run set timing maximum of 3 degrees or more lower than 335i,
approximately the same as the 335is

-all engine tuners of boosted cars decrease timing as boost/engine load is increased

-BMW also decreases timing as boost/engine load is increased (335is)

-JB3 is the only method which does NOT decrease timing as boost/engine load is increased

IF you are unable to draw your own conclusions that EVERYONE except for burger and apparently you makes the connection between the need for lower timing maximums in the case of elevated boost/load, then I have no idea what to say for you, and am surprised that you are an engineer.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

So you know better than BMW. That's what I find so impossible to believe-in a nutshell. And no offense meant, really.

No, bmw must provide a tune that works in majority of the cars. Take a customer in high elevation heat, the car will knock. Is the majority of customers, no its not. Their tune is mean to work on most cars, however prevent failure on all, which at stock boost levels it attempts to do so by using the knock sensor. This is not intended a safty for tunes, if it was, bmw would not program a lower timing curver for the IS model which run more boost, they would simply let the knock sensor figure it out and use the non IS timng curve.....whcih they dont.

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by Clap135

either enable cps offseting or have ability to flash different timing curves.

And if it did either one of those you would then consider it a perfectly fine tune? Just wondering.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

So you know better than BMW. That's what I find so impossible to believe-in a nutshell. And no offense meant, really.

As per my post i just wrote, it is NOT ok with BMW

Hence the maximum timing set point being DECREASED 3 degrees in the is models which run increased boost over the 335i. The tuners with the exception of BMS are doing the same thing.

I honestly am having a hard time understanding why people arent making these connections.....