[boom]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

FACTS for the benefit of InCityPhoto

-BMW 335is runs more boost than a stock 335i

-BMW 335is runs a set timing maximum of 3 degrees lower than 335i

-JB3 runs more boost than 335i and 335is on even most basic maps

-JB3 runs same timing maximum as 335i, 3 degrees higher than 335is

-Procede/Cobb/GIAC run higher boost than 335i/335is

-Procede/Cobb/GIAC run set timing maximum of 3 degrees or more lower than 335i,
approximately the same as the 335is

-all engine tuners of boosted cars decrease timing as boost/engine load is increased

-BMW also decreases timing as boost/engine load is increased (335is)

-JB3 is the only method which does NOT decrease timing as boost/engine load is increased

IF you are unable to draw your own conclusions that EVERYONE except for burger and apparently you makes the connection between the need for lower timing maximums in the case of elevated boost/load, then I have no idea what to say for you, and am surprised that you are an engineer.

well done.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

And if it did either one of those you would then consider it a perfectly fine tune? Just wondering.

Depends how it is used. The goal of offseting it to prevent the knock sensor from dropping time unless freakish condition happen. This is a last resort, not a primary function of engine tuning.

[boom]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

And if it did either one of those you would then consider it a perfectly fine tune? Just wondering.

IMO it's too lean down low as well.

[roninsoldier83]

Originally Posted by Clap135

knock counts are usually nothing more than the amount degrees the ignition dropped. So if you drop 4 degrees of ignition due to the knocks sensor, your knock count is 4

I've actually seen logs on Subaru's & Mitsubishi's where that was not the case... I've seen "counts" of 8 for instance, where timing is not dropped more than 2-4 degrees, and some instances (mostly on late DSM's) where "x" counts of knock occurred where there was no loss in IAT/IAM.

Some datalogging devices on EVO's can also reveal some arbitrary knock count numbers that are not based on direct ignition advance numbers (10-20 counts are not unheard of).

Granted, I agree there are corresponding relational values between the two, but it is not always a 1:1 ratio, as the software/GUI determines the value. Either way, point being: it would be nice to tap the knock sensor voltages being sent to the DME and generate more usable values. Just my $.02

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by boom

well done.

This was already posted numerous times, but the one thick headed member insists on seeing data of this and simply believes the entire world is lying to him.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by roninsoldier83

I've actually seen logs on Subaru's & Mitsubishi's where that was not the case... I've seen "counts" of 8 for instance, where timing is not dropped more than 2-4 degrees, and some instances (mostly on late DSM's) where "x" counts of knock occurred where there was no loss in IAT/IAM.

Some datalogging devices on EVO's can also reveal some arbitrary knock count numbers that are not based on direct ignition advance numbers (10-20 counts are not unheard of).

Granted, I agree there are corresponding relational values between the two, but it is not always a 1:1 ratio, as the software/GUI determines the value. Either way, point being: it would be nice to tap the knock sensor voltages being sent to the DME and generate more usable values. Just my $.02

You have seen this difference because you were monitoring ignition on the cylinder that wasnt dropping timing the most.
There is also the case of over sensative knock sensors and something called phantom knock wich is not even cause by the engiens knocking.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

So you know better than BMW. That's what I find so impossible to believe-in a nutshell. And no offense meant, really.

You seem to be confused, i dont tune stock cars, i tune cars for increased power and modifications. Saying i know better is uncalled for as i never said i know anything more.

Again, as i love repeating myself, in the tuning world (not stock cars), you tune for power and safety. Somewhere u got lost in that translation.

if u want to play the "put words in my mouth game" just let me know. i can make sh*it up just like you do.

U seem to be clueless, no offense, really.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

This was already posted numerous times, but the one thick headed member insists on seeing data of this and simply believes the entire world is lying to him.

just waiting for ANY data showing how the JB tune is causing damage.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

just waiting for ANY data showing how the JB tune is causing damage.

It was just posted and vertified by bmw themselves....look harder.

[Clap135]

IF we all ignore and not quote one person in this thread, we can continue making progress. I will start, i suggest you do the same.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

It was just posted and vertified by bmw themselves....look harder.

And that shows damage being done?

And who at BMW did you speak to that vertified this information?

[so?confused]

man i read through a couple pages but let me get straight to the point---
--WTF am i suppose to use!!! if i "Shouldnt use JB then what? Clap what are you running.
All i read in the regional post is "how much i love jb4 post"

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

FACTS for the benefit of InCityPhoto

-BMW 335is runs more boost than a stock 335i

-BMW 335is runs a set timing maximum of 3 degrees lower than 335i

-JB3 runs more boost than 335i and 335is on even most basic maps

-JB3 runs same timing maximum as 335i, 3 degrees higher than 335is

-Procede/Cobb/GIAC run higher boost than 335i/335is

-Procede/Cobb/GIAC run set timing maximum of 3 degrees or more lower than 335i,
approximately the same as the 335is

-all engine tuners of boosted cars decrease timing as boost/engine load is increased

-BMW also decreases timing as boost/engine load is increased (335is)

-JB3 is the only method which does NOT decrease timing as boost/engine load is increased

IF you are unable to draw your own conclusions that EVERYONE except for burger and apparently you makes the connection between the need for lower timing maximums in the case of elevated boost/load, then I have no idea what to say for you, and am surprised that you are an engineer.

did not know that. helps a lot.

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by Clap135

It was just posted and vertified by bmw themselves....look harder.

Where?

[ExpensiveTaste]

Quick question for all the N54 masters. All of these logs are showing timing advance right? Does that mean total timing before top dead center or is it timing advance on top of a set timing curve? The ECU must run much more than 10 BTDC during cruising right? I have alot more questions depending on these answers...

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by so?confused

man i read through a couple pages but let me get straight to the point---
--WTF am i suppose to use!!! if i "Shouldnt use JB then what? Clap what are you running.
All i read in the regional post is "how much i love jb4 post"

Noone here mentioned what you should use specefically. However it is in you best intrest to serach for a tune has the ability to change the stock preset timing curver without relying on knock 100 percent of the time. Actually the only tune that does that is the jb tune. All those I love my xxx tune, usually dont show anything outside of the end users happiness caused by the car going faster.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

As per my post i just wrote, it is NOT ok with BMW

Hence the maximum timing set point being DECREASED 3 degrees in the is models which run increased boost over the 335i. The tuners with the exception of BMS are doing the same thing.

I honestly am having a hard time understanding why people arent making these connections.....

didn't know the is decreased timing. assumed the BMW still decreased timing and boost as rpms increased, just at a higher boost.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste

Quick question for all the N54 masters. All of these logs are showing timing advance right? Does that mean total timing before top dead center or is it timing advance on top of a set timing curve? The ECU must run much more than 10 BTDC during cruising right? I have alot more questions depending on these answers...

Ecu runs up to 30ish degrees cursing. DI engines run low timing compared to PI engines. The compression ratios are alot higher so the timing needs to be lower.

[AltecBX]

The X5 & X6M run turbo which has a max of 21 psi of boost(granted they're bigger turbos). What are their timing decreases?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

As per my post i just wrote, it is NOT ok with BMW

Hence the maximum timing set point being DECREASED 3 degrees in the is models which run increased boost over the 335i. The tuners with the exception of BMS are doing the same thing.

I honestly am having a hard time understanding why people arent making these connections.....

finally someone with a brain. thank u

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by AltecBX

The X5 & X6M run turbo which has a max of 21 psi of boost(granted they're bigger turbos). What are their timing decreases?

Dont know anything about them, are the DI or PI, whats teh compression ratio? Either way you cannot compare their timing curve to ours. Its a bigger engine, with likley lower compression ratio.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by boom

well done.

yeah wish I had seen this two hours ago!