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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Mike/Terry, can you please join this discussion?



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      02-21-2011, 05:00 PM   #529
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man o man so is this thread made in order to force mike into fixing his product. it seems more then 75% of the users here have jb products
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      02-21-2011, 05:01 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by so?confused View Post
man o man so is this thread made in order to force mike into fixing his product. it seems more then 75% of the users here have jb products
Its not Mike's product.

BMW has shown that there is multiple way's to do the same thing.. With there own two cars..
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      02-21-2011, 05:03 PM   #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
Ecu runs up to 30ish degrees cursing. DI engines run low timing compared to PI engines. The compression ratios are alot higher so the timing needs to be lower.
So when does the ECU lower the timing curve to a maximum of 10 BTDC? Is it when the Map sensor senses boost? Is it at a certain pedal value? Also, do the BMW ECU timing tables include manifold pressure as well? Or is it just a max depending on RPM ramping alongside the knock sensor feedback?
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      02-21-2011, 05:03 PM   #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
3. High cylinder pressure
4. High intake temperatures
5. High backpressure

Theres a ton of variables.
with this ton of variables comes engine operation. the point im drawing out is this -- there a commonly unmentioned variables that influence the outcome.

3. outside ambient air temp
4. air density and humidity
5. coolant temp
6. road condition -- incline/decline >> which translates into load --as load increases so does the propensity for the engine to knock.
and plenty of other factors are to be added to the equation.

i understand that this more of conversation regarding a tunes lack of timing controls, but counterpoint issue "how, when, serverity, effects are all related to the variables.

i know where you are going with this issue, and believe me i fully understand your passion -- but others that are not as familiar with engine dynamics will be lost -- totally
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      02-21-2011, 05:05 PM   #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
Dont know anything about them, are the DI or PI, whats teh compression ratio? Either way you cannot compare their timing curve to ours. Its a bigger engine, with likley lower compression ratio.
It has a maximum boost pressure of 1.5 bar (21 psi) and direct High Precision Injection.
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      02-21-2011, 05:05 PM   #534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste View Post
So when does the ECU lower the timing curve to a maximum of 10 BTDC? Is it when the Map sensor senses boost? Is it at a certain pedal value? Also, do the BMW ECU timing tables include manifold pressure as well? Or is it just a max depending on RPM ramping alongside the knock sensor feedback?
timing is based on load. Cobb posted the stock ecu timing targets based on load vs rpm. Load is pretty much boost, to make boost you need throttle right? Its all joined, but the easiest way is to look up the timing/load tables posted by cobb.
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      02-21-2011, 05:06 PM   #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltecBX View Post
It has a maximum boost pressure of 1.5 bar (21 psi) and direct High Precision Injection.
with a v8 and 9.3 compression ratio....Boost pressure doesnt really mean much, 21psi from a tdo3 and 21 psi from a gt42r is still 21psi, but not the same amount of air or pressure in the cylinder.
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      02-21-2011, 05:07 PM   #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InCityPhoto View Post
BMW has shown that there is multiple way's to do the same thing.. With there own two cars..
You should be banned for spreading misinformation.

They are not using different ways to do the same thing.....jeez man.

The knock sensor and resulting timing drop off is a safety mechanism. BMW has selected the maximum set timing points for each car based on an amount that they believe creates the optimum balance between performance/safety. I will capitalize this point for you so that it is as clear as possible

THE 335is HAS A LOWER SET TIMING MAXIMUM BECAUSE BMW BELEIVES THAT DECREASING THE SET TIMING MAXIMUM ON A CAR WHICH HAS HIGHER BOOST WILL BRING THEM TO AN IDEAL RATIO OF PERFORMANCE/SAFETY.

The only thing that is the same is that they both have a proactive knock sensor which will drop timing if necessary. The timing on the higher boosted car is DECREASED IN ORDER TO LIMIT THE AMOUNT OF TIMES THAT THE SENSOR IS ACTIVATED AND THE CAR HAS TO DROP TIMING

Good lord man.......
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      02-21-2011, 05:09 PM   #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shifterboy45 View Post
with this ton of variables comes engine operation. the point im drawing out is this -- there a commonly unmentioned variables that influence the outcome.

3. outside ambient air temp
4. air density and humidity
5. coolant temp
6. road condition -- incline/decline >> which translates into load --as load increases so does the propensity for the engine to knock.
and plenty of other factors are to be added to the equation.

i understand that this more of conversation regarding a tunes lack of timing controls, but counterpoint issue "how, when, serverity, effects are all related to the variables.

i know where you are going with this issue, and believe me i fully understand your passion -- but others that are not as familiar with engine dynamics will be lost -- totally
Well yea, I am simply assuming people who mod car understand how they work.
personally when I custom tune my car I do it up a little incline, to slow the rpm rate and fill each cylinder more, aka load up the engine. But this isnt really relevant to the whole, rely on the knock sensor to save your ass discussion.
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      02-21-2011, 05:10 PM   #538
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Why is this whole point so difficult to understand, I ran a jb3 from august 2008 to november 2010 and while it was powerful it was completely inconsistent boost surges, back fires on dynos, ran like a bat out of hell in the cold then the heat came and it rode rough and crappy..Terry is great guy very nice and honestly very patient but when it comes down to it ignition control is a fundamental in tuning and the jb products don't have it, others do...period those pre-knock events may not seem to be a big deal now but years of wear will prove other wise, basically before anyone argues for the jb product line just look at the facts, that's all you need to do it was all I needed to do to see reality. And before anyone comments on my car not blowing up I barely drive 5-7000 miles a year.
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      02-21-2011, 05:11 PM   #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
You should be banned for spreading misinformation.

They are not using different ways to do the same thing.....jeez man.

The knock sensor and resulting timing drop off is a safety mechanism. BMW has selected the maximum set timing points for each car based on an amount that they believe creates the optimum balance between performance/safety. I will capitalize this point for you so that it is as clear as possible

THE 335is HAS A LOWER SET TIMING MAXIMUM BECAUSE BMW BELEIVES THAT DECREASING THE SET TIMING MAXIMUM ON A CAR WHICH HAS HIGHER BOOST WILL BRING THEM TO AN IDEAL RATIO OF PERFORMANCE/SAFETY.

The only thing that is the same is that they both have a proactive knock sensor which will drop timing if necessary. The timing on the higher boosted car is DECREASED IN ORDER TO LIMIT THE AMOUNT OF TIMES THAT THE SENSOR IS ACTIVATED AND THE CAR HAS TO DROP TIMING

Good lord man.......
You are going to get worked up over nothing like I have for hte past two day. ITs like talking to a wall. Put him on your ignore list and call it a day.
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      02-21-2011, 05:14 PM   #540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
You should be banned for spreading misinformation.

They are not using different ways to do the same thing.....jeez man.

The knock sensor and resulting timing drop off is a safety mechanism. BMW has selected the maximum set timing points for each car based on an amount that they believe creates the optimum balance between performance/safety. I will capitalize this point for you so that it is as clear as possible

THE 335is HAS A LOWER SET TIMING MAXIMUM BECAUSE BMW BELEIVES THAT DECREASING THE SET TIMING MAXIMUM ON A CAR WHICH HAS HIGHER BOOST WILL BRING THEM TO AN IDEAL RATIO OF PERFORMANCE/SAFETY.

The only thing that is the same is that they both have a proactive knock sensor which will drop timing if necessary. The timing on the higher boosted car is DECREASED IN ORDER TO LIMIT THE AMOUNT OF TIMES THAT THE SENSOR IS ACTIVATED AND THE CAR HAS TO DROP TIMING

Good lord man.......
He's been doing this all day, dont even bother, as long as other people get it, im fine with it.
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      02-21-2011, 05:15 PM   #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InCityPhoto View Post
If you want actual information contact the two manufactures independently.
if i were going to tune my car, i certainly would. I have a sitdown talk with each of my choices and after my conversation, id do my research and consider the cost in the long run.

but since i work on the other side of this issue, im try to get people to least aquainted with some basics before i get to see the result
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      02-21-2011, 05:18 PM   #542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPSlick View Post
He's been doing this all day, dont even bother, as long as other people get it, im fine with it.
True, my perspective is the same. I know I am glad that I read posts such as these from clap, you, others about the different types of tuning because if not I would have gone with jb3 as well.

Its my day off work with presidents day today, too much time reading this nonsense
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      02-21-2011, 05:27 PM   #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roninsoldier83 View Post
I think there's a general lack of understand about what a knock sensor's job is on these boards... to those that are unfamiliar, think of a knock sensor as somewhat of a stethoscope. It's main function is to listen for "pinging/detonation" within the engine that is not necessarily audible. On most of the cars I've worked on/tuned over the years, many of them only had 1 knock sensor (as opposed to the multiple knock sensors within these motors). As such, monitoring knock was a fairly simple feat, most piggybacks either tapped the knock sensor wire, or flash based/OBDII data logging software simply read data from the knock sensor.

Typically, during a log, most of the GUI's I've used would just translate the voltage signal of the knock sensor into a count, often referred to as a "knock count", with the higher the number, the greater severity of the knock event. For instance, logging a knock count at XXXX rpm of "1" was not nearly as severe as a knock count event of "10" at that rpm. Rather than relying on retarded timing (as opposed to advancing, not stupid haha), what I would like to understand, is why we cannot translate the data being fed from the knock sensors to the DME into a usable value?

I've experienced audible knock before in the past on my old WRX... damn FPR hose slipped off the intake manifold under 20psi of boost. Unmistakable sound, like shaking BB's in a can... that was a severe knock event. My heart skipped a beat, I knew what it was, immediately got off the gas, but it was too late, the damage was already done. Within a few minutes got a flashing CEL, read the code- misfire on cylinder #4. Checked compression, sure enough, #4 was reading about 50psi low... pulled the slug, and of course the ringland had a hairline crack in it. Either way, there is such a thing as audible knock, but generally only when severe/catastrophic, for most minor knock events, we rely on knock sensors.

The theory behind tuning is fairly simple... I always preferred to tune fuel first with a low boost/timing setting. Adjust/scale injectors (if necessary) and MAF (if applicable, not for these cars). Make sure to get my STFT's/LTFT's as close to 0 as possible at idle and in the lower RPM's. Then start playing with fuel tables in the upper RPM's until I achieve the AFR's I desire. From there I would adjust boost to a desired level, preferably on a dyno to verify gains, but on a MAF car, road tuning while monitoring G/S or some sort of road dyno software would suffice. After boost was at a level I was comfortable with, from there I would attempt to advance timing slowly while monitoring knock & AFR... if I saw knock at a certain RPM range, I would typically pull a couple degrees within that load/rpm range. Make a couple pulls to ensure no knock, and viola, we're good to go.

There's a bit more to it, but in essence, we're not performing brain surgery here, tuning is a fairly simple concept to grasp. However, with that said, even conservative tunes knock... if you tune a car on a 65 degree day, with good airflow, high quality fuel ect, there's a good chance you're going to see a bit of knock when temps hit 105 degrees, in traffic, with a heat soaked intercooler and a bad tank of gas. That's where your knock sensor should be coming into play, retarding timing (boost as well on these cars), richening up AFR's (if applicable) ect.

I wouldn't say that these cars have "bulletproof" motors per se, I would say that they have very advanced knock detection/correction preventative measures that come into play and save a lot of motors. This may come as a shock, but many Japanese "tuner cars" have Open Loop fuel maps under WOT that don't have the ability to "richen" up AFR's under knock. Most also run a set WGDC and do not alter boost on the fly to the extent that these motors do... nor is throttle plate "trimming" even applicable. While the inline-6 configuration is often considered very stout/rigid & balanced, and dissipates heat very well in comparison to many other engine configurations, at the same time, last I checked these motors still come with cast pistons and an open deck (someone please correct me if I'm mistaken). If these slugs are forged, well, when cold I would say that these would be the quietest forged pistons when cold that I've ever heard! Haha!!

Point being, I wouldn't say the motors are just "that tough"... even with a fully closed deck and forged internals, a ringland/piston ring is still only a sliver of steel/iron, it doesn't take much to crack one. For most catastrophic failures like snapping a rod in half, or burning a hole through a piston, yes, internal integrity comes into play, but at the end of the day, ringlands aren't hard to crack under moderate detonation.

The fact that these motors/DME's alter so many parameters on the fly so quickly in order to prevent major detonation events is impressive. In my mind, this is undoubtedly due to knock sensitivity and the knock correction methods that the DME is able to utilize so quickly. I will agree that it was engineered to handle factory boost levels not double stock boost... however, by that same argument, we could deduce that no component within the engine bay should be tampered with to make more power/torque because it would exceed the OEM's specifications. In truth, most OEM's do attempt to put in additional safety nets for less than optimal conditions, i.e. idiot toolbags & soccer moms trying to save a few bucks by filling their cars with the cheapest 85 octane gas available, knowing damn well their owner's manual clearly states 91. I'm sure this is a much more regular occurrence than most of us would like to believe haha, and that the knock sensors/DME's are surely having a field day when said event(s) occur(s)!

Obviously the fact that many of these motors are still alive and running strong after years of abuse/turning the boost up without altering base timing settings is a testament to the adaptability of the ECU/DME. However, as anyone with a lick of tuning experience can tell you, this is not considered optimal. While in this case, riding the knock sensor(s) saves many-a-motor from failure while making substantially more power, at the same time, overall consistency and longterm reliability would likely be increased with proper ignition maps.

By "proper", I'm also not necessarily referring to an OTS flash tune either (Cobb/Dinan/Giac ect). From my experience, OTS maps usually leave a bit to be desired... as like OEM's, they make those maps to be ran in all sorts of conditions all over the country/world. What I'm referring to is strapping your car to a dyno and making adjustments on YOUR car specifically, at YOUR elevation/altitude, running gas from a station that you frequent (preferably under harsh weather conditions/high temps ect). If a person deals with enough OTS maps, across enough platforms, it's pretty easy to see that there are variations from car to car, even from the factory, some motors will make considerably more power/torque than others, and the tunes will be close to spot on, while others will knock all over the place and/or have lower output numbers.

As such, in order to address said variances for optimal performance and consistency, the ultimate solution is to have your vehicle custom tuned as opposed to relying on a map created by another person in a different part of the country/world. With that said, I have not really taken the time to dissect Autotuning on the Procede, or to the extent it can modify said parameters/how quickly it adapts ect, so I'm not going to comment on it.

However, I feel this will fall on many dead ears, as traditionally BMW hasn't really come across as an end user tunable community, most seem to prefer "set-it-and-forget-it chips". On the bright side though, now that these vehicles are becoming more affordable and recognizable as cars that respond well to bolt-ons, I foresee more knowledgeable owners/tuners entering the community, which will ultimately be beneficial to all. Only time will tell I suppose.

Just my $.02
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      02-21-2011, 05:31 PM   #544
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So can we summarize if there has actually been any answers / clarifications to what Clap135 brought up?
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      02-21-2011, 05:31 PM   #545
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So can we summarize if there has actually been any answers / clarifications to what Clap135 brought up?
no
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      02-21-2011, 05:35 PM   #546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brey335i View Post
So can we summarize if there has actually been any answers / clarifications to what Clap135 brought up?
Yes
If you raise boost you need to alter base timing and rely on the knock sensor to save you incase of harsh conditions.

This is how BMW does it on the IS model, this is however EVERY main tune does it except the juicebox.
If the juicebox way was the way to do it, why didnt bmw just raise boost on the IS models and let the knock sensor figure it out?
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      02-21-2011, 05:40 PM   #547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
Yes
If you raise boost you need to alter base timing and rely on the knock sensor to save you incase of harsh conditions.

This is how BMW does it on the IS model, this is however EVERY main tune does it except the juicebox.
If the juicebox way was the way to do it, why didnt bmw just raise boost on the IS models and let the knock sensor figure it out?
Thast is pretty much the nail in the coffin.
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      02-21-2011, 05:42 PM   #548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
Yes
If you raise boost you need to alter base timing and rely on the knock sensor to save you incase of harsh conditions.

This is how BMW does it on the IS model, this is however EVERY main tune does it except the juicebox.
If the juicebox way was the way to do it, why didnt bmw just raise boost on the IS models and let the knock sensor figure it out?
Is all of this info based on logs or did someone actually read the programming of the ECU?
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      02-21-2011, 05:42 PM   #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste View Post
Is all of this info based on logs or did someone actually read the programming of the ECU?
Both
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      02-21-2011, 05:44 PM   #550
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
Both
Can someone please post these programming details up highlighting the 3 degree timing retard at the same load calculation.
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