[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by joyride

Programming, the logic that uses those tables man, not the variables that the programming uses. THE ACTUAL PROGRAMMING!!!!

The thing is, without actually knowing what the programming is doing, just looking at bits and pieces what the ECU uses. Won't tell you the whole story.

You show a stock ecu with a bad data log, i'm sure there are a ton of jb# logs showing things pretty good. So it's not as cut and dry as you apparently obsess about.

Now, the real question is, why doesn't the JB use some sort of timing control? They can put this entire business to bed if they did.

You guys have trouble realizing the practicality in some of your requests, and forgetting the obvious of what is in front of you.

Like the fact that BMS is working on timing control for their PRO-Board. For a reason.

The programming the car as you claim it is not as complex as you want to make it out to be.

The ignition tables are posted. Via load, the vehicle follows those timing tables.

If knock occurs, that is when the "programming" you speak of will change timing.

Until then it is what it is, you get what you get.

The only other programming language that would intervene would likely be related to oil and IAT temps, which have no part in this thread.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Why do you think that BMW decreased the set timing maximum 3 degrees on the higher boost 335is?

You mean the maximum advance points? That maximum simply determines how high the timing curve can adapt up but does not mean it runs at that value consistently. In practice the N54 is in a constant state of almost knocking managed by the DME. The logs I've seen indicate the 335is has 1-2 degree lower maximum advance points. Regardless in practice the 335is @ 13psi is going to run the same timing curve as the JB4 @ 13psi. That is how the adaptive system works.

Mike

[Litos]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

If a coil went out it was probably a fluke thing.

Mike

i totally agree.

it didn't go out on Map, but it went out on Map 2.

since Map 2 is more agressive, can you narrow down what you honestly believe was the actual cause of the ignition coil failing?

[ExpensiveTaste]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Why would the same load conditions have 3 degree retards?

That's what is being speculated, right? You are saying that the 335is has an overall retard of exactly 3 degrees at the same load values as the 335i, right? So basically, at the same boost, cam position, iat, fuel adaptation, elevation, throttle value, engine coolant temp, and oil temp, the 335is will be 3 degrees lower in the timing curve than the 335i? Right? Or is it just a log showing that the timing at a random RPM at higher boost is lower?

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

You mean the maximum advance points? That maximum simply determines how high the timing curve can adapt up but does not mean it runs at that value consistently. In practice the N54 is in a constant state of almost knocking managed by the DME. The logs I've seen indicate the 335is has 1-2 degree lower maximum advance points. Regardless in practice the 335is @ 13psi is going to run the same timing curve as the JB4 @ 13psi. That is how the adaptive system works.

Mike

Actually, the timing table was posted Mike, If you are getting 1-2 degrees lower, you are simply not hitting the load.

The n54 is not in a constate state of almost knocking. The jb3 might have the same timing curve as an IS after it knocks multiple times and the curve lowers. What happens later mike? The ecu tries to ramp up to base ignition based on the load. Being that you give the ecu a fake load, it will try to ramp to an ignition curve not intended for actual load, and it will simply knock again.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by Litos

and the only real thing i took from that is the cold hard fact that the 335 knocks at stock boost on the stock tune, which ideally gives me the impression that the car is complete garbage, inefficient and a grenade waiting to happen EVEN in stock form.

well good luck with you next car, because as much as you do want knock --

it happens- now the question is can your next car run over 10+:1 compression ration and close to a half atmosphere of boost and continue to survive? the testament is that although knock is present at some point in time for any interal combustion engine, are the controls (whether stock of tuned) good to keep the engine together?

this whole conversation surrounds the issue -- can a man hold fire to his chest and not be burned? if your control methodology is flawed, so too will the tune be -- maybe rethinking the control logic of the tune in question will prevent forseeable damages and embrace what tuning is all about -- going fast and saving your engine for another day of driving.

take into account these cars are engineered in the country that has a highway with no speed limits -- it better to get there a couple of tenths slower than on the roadside waiting for a tow truck .. right ??

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste

That's what is being speculated, right? You are saying that the 335is has an overall retard of exactly 3 degrees at the same load values as the 335i, right? So basically, at the same boost, cam position, iat, fuel adaptation, elevation, throttle value, engine coolant temp, and oil temp, the 335is will be 3 degrees lower in the timing curve than the 335i? Right? Or is it just a log showing that the timing at a random RPM at higher boost is lower?

No, the 335IS runs more boost, which equals more load.

[Litos]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The N54 has a variety of common problems that are not related to tuning, including fuel pumps, injectors, coils, VANOS, gas vapor valves, wastegate rattle, poor PCV, etc. If a coil went out it was probably a fluke thing.

Mike

so aside from all that stuff, it also knocks at stock boost levels !?!?

freakin car is a shitbox and a half. someone needs to tell n54fanatic in that Camaro 5.7 thread because he thinks the German Engineering is God's gift......

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Litos

so i have to wait for the development update in order to feel as if my car is running safer?

just to be clear - i don't donkey stomp my car and i don't plan on doing anything else to it besides a fmic, because afterall, i live in Houston. 115 heat index with 80% humidity makes me want to stomp a fresh litter of kittens.

that being said, i "might" WOT my car 3 or 4 times a month. i don't "plan" on having engine failures do to my driving habits, but i'm just tryiong to get a feel for what exactly this tune does.

i'm not gonna lie - i like the JB4 and i loved how it pulled on my car, but the evidence in this thread is swaying my brain a little bit

There is no evidence in this thread. Simply hypothetical talking points and FUD spreading. The same stuff that have been said countless times before over the years. If you want to be conservative just keep it on map 1 and enjoy the car for years to come as many thousands with the JB3 have before you. If you want to optimize it for more power test out the new Map5 autotuning under development.

Mike

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Regardless in practice the 335is @ 13psi is going to run the same timing curve as the JB4 @ 13psi. That is how the adaptive system works.

Mike

How about the JB3??

[Litos]

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

maybe rethinking the control logic of the tune in question will prevent forseeable damages and embrace what tuning is all about -- going fast and saving your engine for another day of driving.

honestly, i think my car will "go fast enough" when i need it to.

i'm not going to WOT every weekend leaving a car meet - it's my daily driver that i haul kids and coworkers in

if it's fast as shit 15% of the time i drive it, i'm happy - the other 85% i just need it to work lol.

i think i'm on the right track, even with the current JB4.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

How about the JB3??

JB3 also. The difference is the JB3 unlike the JB4 does not have the ability to know when timing drops are taking place, react, and remember for future runs.

Mike

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

JB3 also. The difference is the JB3 unlike the JB4 does not have the ability to know when timing drops are taking place, react, and remember for future runs.

Mike

But I thought you said these timing drops are not knock, so whats the big deal again?

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

You mean the maximum advance points? That maximum simply determines how high the timing curve can adapt up but does not mean it runs at that value consistently. In practice the N54 is in a constant state of almost knocking managed by the DME. The logs I've seen indicate the 335is has 1-2 degree lower maximum advance points. Regardless in practice the 335is @ 13psi is going to run the same timing curve as the JB4 @ 13psi. That is how the adaptive system works.

Mike

Ok....

If the ECU works by advancing timing until either A) it reaches the set maximum value, or B) the knock sensor detects an event and reduces timing, then why drop the maximum set timing UNLESS you believed that under the higher boost conditions of the 335is situation B would occur more often unless the set maximum was decreased? And by dropping the set maximum timing values, situation B (timing retard by virtue of knock sensor detection and reaction) would be limited.

[fisherbln]

Why is BMS developing the PROboard with timing control if it isn't necessary?

[e90injrz]

Originally Posted by fisherbln

Why is BMS developing the PROboard with timing control if it isn't necessary?

IMHO give the market what it wants.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by fisherbln

Why is BMS developing the PROboard with timing control if it isn't necessary?

Cause the tribe has spoken, and they are giving the customers what they want finally.

+ its another upgrade to get more $$$$$

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by e90injrz

IMHO give the market what it wants.

doubtful, after all the shit Terry got about this, and all the times he defended it, and still defends it. There little chance that he would do it just to shut poeple up and go against his beliefs.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Litos

so aside from all that stuff, it also knocks at stock boost levels !?!?

freakin car is a shitbox and a half. someone needs to tell n54fanatic in that Camaro 5.7 thread because he thinks the German Engineering is God's gift......

If you read my summary those drops they claim are knock are not actually knock. Do you really think BMW with their millions of dollars of development money would tune a car that knocked heavily stock?

Mike

[ExpensiveTaste]

Originally Posted by Clap135

But I thought you said these timing drops are not knock, so whats the big deal again?

It is definitely knock, but that's how autotuning works. It is the ECU pulling timing because it was a little too aggressive. The big question is how bad the knock event was. The real question that I have with the JB4 is how it manages the autotune boost setpoint when the timing curve is changing all the time. Will it eventually drop down to near stock boost over time when the ECU tries to reach the timing tables?

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

If you read my summary those drops they claim are knock are not actually knock. Do you really think BMW with their millions of dollars of development money would tune a car that knocked heavily stock?

Mike

So what are they, Do i think BMW would do this? Yes, every car does this. It relies on the knock sensor as a last resort in shity conditions. They will not detune every single car because a few run 6000 feet above sealevel in 100 degree temperatures.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste

It is definitely knock, but that's how autotuning works. It is the ECU pulling timing because it was a little too aggressive. The big question is how bad the knock event was. The real question that I have with the JB4 is how it manages the autotune boost setpoint when the timing curve is changing all the time. Will it eventually drop down to near stock boost over time when the ECU tries to reach the timing tables?

If it works as intended, yes over time it would actually reverse the tune and sometimes even go lower than stock. However I am sure terry has a limit to how it can drop boost.


What I find funny about this is: As boost drops, the wont knock on its already "knocked" timing curve, so it will attempt to raise it to stock, rinse and repeat and you pretty much just detuned your tune for 475 dollars.