[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by themyst

I flatline to ambient or better with 100% meth on a single M10 nozzle through a 3 gear pull with no IAT creep, no water works fine for me, the only danger in this case would be the flammability, but a properly installed meth kit will not have this problem. Perhaps I'll splash in a little water to drop it to 90% meth on my next refill.

Then again, i have an aftermarket FMIC.

I'm tempted to log 19.5 psi on 93+meth just to show that the M10 nozzle is superior to the M7 in regards to adding timing to the equation.

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. People on the N54 platform think IAT temperatures dictate the effectiveness of water/methanol, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Actually this is a complete and total misunderstanding of what you are trying to do with water/methanol kits. IAT drop tells you nothing of what is going on in the combustion chamber. Removing heat from your charge is only important to allow your car to run more boost so you don't go into IAT decay. Cooler temperatures in the combustion chamber are far more important that IAT cooling. That means that you don't want the fluid to evaporate solely in the charge, but it is critically important that the fluid makes it to the combustion chamber where it can draw heat during the actual combustion process. The problem is we cannot measure that temperature. The latent heat required to evaporate water is considerably more than the latent heat required to evaporate methanol. This means methanol should be primarily used to enhance octane because water is considerably more effective at removing heat. Again, let me say that measuring whether you need water or not by looking at IAT is completely wrong.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

do it today, i'm curious to see how it looks!

I don't see it to be a problem. I will more than likely have lower ignition advance and dropouts but I have progressive meth enabled so if my meth cuts out or fails, I'm fairly well protected.

Maybe i'll even bump my pump pressure to 250psi just for the extra flow.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. People on the N54 platform think IAT temperatures dictate the effectiveness of water/methanol, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Actually this is a complete and total misunderstanding of what you are trying to do with water/methanol kits. IAT drop tells you nothing of what is going on in the combustion chamber. Removing heat from your charge is only important to allow your car to run more boost so you don't go into IAT decay. Cooler temperatures in the combustion chamber are far more important that IAT cooling. That means that you don't want the fluid to evaporate solely in the charge, but it is critically important that the fluid makes it to the combustion chamber where it can draw heat during the actual combustion process. The problem is we cannot measure that temperature. The latent heat required to evaporate water is considerably more than the latent heat required to evaporate methanol. This means methanol should be primarily used to enhance octane because water is considerably more effective at removing heat. Again, let me say that measuring whether you need water or not by looking at IAT is completely wrong.

I was actually responding to a previous response in regards to a member emphasizing IAT drop. I understand meth is primarily used to increase octane of ordinary pump gas, which is where most of the gains realized with meth come from (by running more boost on increased timing).

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by themyst

I was actually responding to a previous response in regards to a member emphasizing IAT drop. I understand meth is primarily used to increase octane of ordinary pump gas, which is where most of the gains realized with meth come from (by running more boost on increased timing).

The thing is you still want fluid droplets to make it to the combustion chamber to remove heat there. This is a huge benefit to water/methanol. Just pick your ratio and nozzle size so you can get the quantity of methanol and water that you want.

[jpsimon]

Originally Posted by themyst

I don't see it to be a problem. I will more than likely have lower ignition advance and dropouts but I have progressive meth enabled so if my meth cuts out or fails, I'm fairly well protected.

Maybe i'll even bump my pump pressure to 250psi just for the extra flow.

I'm curious to see what stock turbo logs at higher boost and meth/pump gas looks like! let me know when you have a couple logs!

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

The thing is you still want fluid droplets to make it to the combustion chamber to remove heat there. This is a huge benefit to water/methanol. Just pick your ratio and nozzle size so you can get the quantity of methanol and water that you want.

and this statement explains why timing is lower prior to the IAT drop in the charge, (e.g. stomping from a 40 roll without cooling the charge temps first) and increases exponentially once the charge temps are cooled and more of the meth makes it into the combustion chamber.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

I'm curious to see what stock turbo logs at higher boost and meth/pump gas looks like! let me know when you have a couple logs!

Probably won't be pretty, but it's cool enough outside to get away with it. I just pray some genius doesn't think "hey this guy does it, let me do this every day!". I will only do it for one WOT pull and revert immediately back to the lower boost levels.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Only conclusion that can be made comparing nozzles is ignition changes..

All this other mumbo jumo IAT and Track time crap is useless along with other opinions.

Stick to the facts.

My ignition improved with a m10 vs an m7, that's #1 priority on tuning basics.

(Facts.... Could barely get to 10 degrees ignition with m7, M10 10+ degrees from 4000 RPM to redline).

All the other stuff comes later. Ignition Safety FTW. I only speak for my car, if you find full ignition at m7 nozzles so be it!

I agree that a dual m5 nozzles would be slightly more efficient.... but if it aint broke, dont fix it.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

Only conclusion that can be made comparing nozzles is ignition changes..

All this other mumbo jumo IAT and Track time crap is useless along with other opinions.

Stick to the facts.

My ignition improved with a m10 vs an m7, that's #1 priority on tuning basics.

(Facts.... Could barely get to 10 degrees ignition with m7, M10 10+ degrees from 4000 RPM to redline).

All the other stuff comes later. Ignition Safety FTW. I only speak for my car, if you find full ignition at m7 nozzles so be it!

I agree that a dual m5 nozzles would be slightly more efficient.... but if it aint broke, dont fix it.

+1 massive kr on a DO7 nozzle, smooth timing on a DO10. smoother on CM10. FTW

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by themyst

+1 massive kr on a DO7 nozzle, smooth timing on a DO10. smoother on CM10. FTW

Are you saying you have smoother ignition with a cm10 compared to a DO10? Could it be that outside temps dropped a full 30 degrees?


FBI What you are saying makes sense however it is my understanding that timing is set based on combustion temps. If temps are high, the car will knock, if octane is low, timing will drop. 100 percent meth usually equals max stock timing with no drop. When I ran 50/50 70/30 mixes my timing was shit. After 80/20-100/0 thats when timing shot back up. So to me, combustion temps are not as important as timing. If they were dangerous, the timing would drop.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Are you saying you have smoother ignition with a cm10 compared to a DO10? Could it be that outside temps dropped a full 30 degrees?


FBI What you are saying makes sense however it is my understanding that timing is set based on combustion temps. If temps are high, the car will knock, if octane is low, timing will drop. 100 percent meth usually equals max stock timing with no drop. When I ran 50/50 70/30 mixes my timing was shit. After 80/20-100/0 thats when timing shot back up. So to me, combustion temps are not as important as timing. If they were dangerous, the timing would drop.

when i logged the DO10 it was back in march, so temps were comparable mid 60's i maxed out at 12.5 on the DO10, im at 14 now with the CM10. i primarily got the CM10 because I use that shit DO adapter and i'm too cheap to buy an actual elbow with bungs. more threads on that CM10 nozzle so it goes all the way in.

[jpsimon]

Originally Posted by themyst

... so it goes all the way in.

that's what she said



I'm definitely going to give the CM10 nozzle a whirl.. do I need anything special for it to work with the vishnu meth kit elbow or can I just buy the nozzle and screw it in?

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

that's what she said



I'm definitely going to give the CM10 nozzle a whirl.. do I need anything special for it to work with the vishnu meth kit elbow or can I just buy the nozzle and screw it in?

Buy the nozzle and just screw it in and use some teflon paste!

[themyst]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

Buy the nozzle and just screw it in and use some teflon paste!

I needed teflon paste for the DO nozzle, but since the CM10 nozzle goes so deep into the adapter, no paste needed. That stuff also makes nozzles a bitch to get out. I had to WD40 the DO nozzle and use two wrenches to get it out.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

that's what she said



I'm definitely going to give the CM10 nozzle a whirl.. do I need anything special for it to work with the vishnu meth kit elbow or can I just buy the nozzle and screw it in?

I see 15-16 on the DB7 parameter when logging with the CM10. 12-13 with the CM7. I use a check valve though.

IIRC, the Vishnu kit comes with a solenoid, so you will probably flow a little more than I do, probably 16-17?

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by themyst

and this statement explains why timing is lower prior to the IAT drop in the charge, (e.g. stomping from a 40 roll without cooling the charge temps first) and increases exponentially once the charge temps are cooled and more of the meth makes it into the combustion chamber.

The argument is futile. If you want droplets in your combustion chamber, you add water because the energy required to evaporate methanol is considerably less than water. That means you are considerably more heat from your combustions chamber with water. Simply put you are not taking advantage of the superior thermodynamic properties of water. If you want liquid methanol in your cylinder for better octane enhancement (which I have argued for a year), then you place the nozzle closer to the TB.

If you want 1000 ml/min of methanol in your engine, then flow 1300 ml/min through your nozzles and change your ratio to 77/23. That gives you your 1000 ml/min of methanol and adds 300 ml/min of water to cool your combustion chamber considerably more. You don't lose anything. People keep looking at total flow rather than how much they are flowing of each fluid in the mixture. This is a foolish practice.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Are you saying you have smoother ignition with a cm10 compared to a DO10? Could it be that outside temps dropped a full 30 degrees?


FBI What you are saying makes sense however it is my understanding that timing is set based on combustion temps. If temps are high, the car will knock, if octane is low, timing will drop. 100 percent meth usually equals max stock timing with no drop. When I ran 50/50 70/30 mixes my timing was shit. After 80/20-100/0 thats when timing shot back up. So to me, combustion temps are not as important as timing. If they were dangerous, the timing would drop.

But did you increase the flow to allow the quantity of methanol you desired to be injected? An example is using nozzle that flows 700 ml/min. Lets say you are 50/50, then you are getting 350 ml/min of water and 350 ml/min of methanol. Now you change the mixture to 90/10 and you are flowing 70 ml/min of water and 630 ml/min of methanol. The point is that you can target the amount of methanol you want, but add 300 ml/min of water on top of that and you take advantage of higher latent heat of vaporization from water while maintaining the quantity of methanol you want.