[Terry335]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Load defines the amount of air that is being pumped through an engine at any given time. It can either be measured directly by a MAF or calculated by a MAP. What you are describing is essentially run duration or change in RPM with respect to time. That is acceleration rate, not engine load. If you are making full boost at WOT, the engine is under the same exact load (at any given time) regardless of the gear.

The example you are referring to has to do with the car not being able to support full load for a long period of time. Whereas the run on the dynojet might have only lasted several seconds, the run on the road lasted longer.

-shiv

I stepped way from the thread for a bit so forgive the digression. You're right on the first point; load is the air mass being pumped through the engine. I'd argue with you on the second, as the slower acceleration rate allows more time for the cylinder to fill and thus increases load, but we're getting off my original point.

I simply don't think detonation occurs often under part throttle, so the turbo-tuners leaner mix under part throttle boost shouldn't be a concern. Hopefully my HPTuners scanning program can read the BMW, going to toy with that tonight.

[BoLaS]

all this talk back and forth on why the TT is bad b/c it cant possibly just up the boost without compensating for other things and how the proceed is bad b/c it gives too much torque... bla bla bla....

POST DYNO SHEETS! THEN COMPARE THE SMOOTHNESS OF THE CURVES... NOT THE NUMBERS! who cares if one is making more power than the other, if the power is not being delivered properly then why bother...

Besides all this chit chat will be worthless in about 5 months time anyway when there are 4 or 5 tuners on the market all competing to be the best.... wait till then, then start arguing.....

w/e im tired.. flame on

[Corey]

Originally Posted by BoLaS

all this talk back and forth on why the TT is bad b/c it cant possibly just up the boost without compensating for other things and how the proceed is bad b/c it gives too much torque... bla bla bla....

POST DYNO SHEETS! THEN COMPARE THE SMOOTHNESS OF THE CURVES... NOT THE NUMBERS! who cares if one is making more power than the other, if the power is not being delivered properly then why bother...

Besides all this chit chat will be worthless in about 5 months time anyway when there are 4 or 5 tuners on the market all competing to be the best.... wait till then, then start arguing.....

w/e im tired.. flame on

No one is arguing about torque curves..

[RiXst3r]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

... I've been wrong before and I'm sure I'll be wrong again

Cheers,
shiv

that is from the original Turbo Tuner thread... at least shiv admits that he might not fully understand what the turbo tuner product is doing...

[boggysv]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

They make full boost, at WOT, under 2000rpm. Even at 50% throttle, they make close to full boost an any engine speed over 3000rpm.
shiv

those sound like some hardworking turbos.
The b5 s4 was boosting similarly, and turbo failure examples are everywhere.


A little off topic, but I dont recall seeing much posts about egt on the 335i.
Wont it help in the afr argument to note how much hotter is the lean mixture?

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by radgator1

No, I wouldn't pretend to know much about the subject. I do think splitsecond is a reliable company and I am impressed with the performance of the TT when I had it breifly installed for testing, since as we all know, these mods are approved for offroad use only. It sure is nice to have a unit that can be installed/uninstalled in 30 seconds and without requiring messing around with the ECU. It does also make me feel better to know that when the TT was briefly installed in my car I was only running with an extra 40-50 torque and HP rather than the 90-100 ftlbs torqe of the PROcede since as we know there is more than just heat that can lead to excess wear and tear.

I'm glad Shiv is so concerned for all of us that he has posted over 30 messages questioning the safety of the TT. You would think he would be too busy working, but then again, maybe these posts are a form of work. What better form of marketing than to strike directly at the main competitor by putting fear in the minds of their potential customers? I'm sure these posts are paying off in gold (or at least in Porsche 911-turbos).

So it seems the main concern of the TT is the lean AF ratio under boost. So far I have seen no evidence that we are seeing increased detonation, or increase knock retard. So the main question seems to be is it running so lean that is is an unsafe condidtion leading to extreme excessive heat? We have seen no evidence of increased oil temps over stock, but Shiv told us we that even though the car is producing much more heat we wont see it in increased oil temps. Apparently BMW has figured out a way to ignore the first law of thermodynamics which is some pretty spiffy engineering, I must say.

Haha, in so many words, I think you just said you're an ignoramus too.

Yeah, I seem to remember Shiv saying something about not seeing an increase in oil temps notwithstanding an increase in heat. Where was that?

BTW, since you only had the TT installed briefly, what do you mean by "so far I have seen no evidence that we are seeing increased . . . "? Almost sounds like it's still attached.

[radgator1]

Originally Posted by lawdude

Haha, in so many words, I think you just said you're an ignoramus too.

Yeah, I seem to remember Shiv saying something about not seeing an increase in oil temps notwithstanding an increase in heat. Where was that?

BTW, since you only had the TT installed briefly, what do you mean by "so far I have seen no evidence that we are seeing increased . . . "? Almost sounds like it's still attached.

Pretty much, it's actually rather liberating It also helps me look for the big picture. Which cars are spending more time in the shop, which ones have had warranty service denied, which ones are a pain in the ass to add/remove the mod?

For the ignorami of the world I think the simple choice is obvious

[radgator1]

Originally Posted by lawdude

Haha, in so many words, I think you just said you're an ignoramus too.

Yeah, I seem to remember Shiv saying something about not seeing an increase in oil temps notwithstanding an increase in heat. Where was that?

BTW, since you only had the TT installed briefly, what do you mean by "so far I have seen no evidence that we are seeing increased . . . "? Almost sounds like it's still attached.

How so? I wouldn't know where to start to measure knock retard. Dont try to read any more into it then what it says. Where is the data that the TT's lean AFR is causing knock that is subsequently activating the 335is knock retard system?

[RiXst3r]

Originally Posted by radgator1

How so? I wouldn't know where to start to measure knock retard. Dont try to read any more into it then what it says. Where is the data that the TT's lean AFR is causing knock that is subsequently activating the 335is knock retard system?

wouldnt this cause a check engine light?

[mesier1111]

Originally Posted by radgator1

No, I wouldn't pretend to know much about the subject. I do think splitsecond is a reliable company and I am impressed with the performance of the TT when I had it breifly installed for testing, since as we all know, these mods are approved for offroad use only. It sure is nice to have a unit that can be installed/uninstalled in 30 seconds and without requiring messing around with the ECU. It does also make me feel better to know that when the TT was briefly installed in my car I was only running with an extra 40-50 torque and HP rather than the 90-100 ftlbs torqe of the PROcede since as we know there is more than just heat that can lead to excess wear and tear.

I'm glad Shiv is so concerned for all of us that he has posted over 30 messages questioning the safety of the TT. You would think he would be too busy working, but then again, maybe these posts are a form of work. What better form of marketing than to strike directly at the main competitor by putting fear in the minds of their potential customers? I'm sure these posts are paying off in gold (or at least in Porsche 911-turbos).

So it seems the main concern of the TT is the lean AF ratio under boost. So far I have seen no evidence that we are seeing increased detonation, or increase knock retard. So the main question seems to be is it running so lean that is is an unsafe condidtion leading to extreme excessive heat? We have seen no evidence of increased oil temps over stock, but Shiv told us we that even though the car is producing much more heat we wont see it in increased oil temps. Apparently BMW has figured out a way to ignore the first law of thermodynamics which is some pretty spiffy engineering, I must say.

THATS IT....I"VE READ ENOUGH!!!!! he isn't striking fear in anyone, he is passionate, and he shared that passion with us for 7+ months, not just come along one day and say, "here is an upgrade, buy it for $800 and you will go faster". He, unlike anyone else I have seen on this forum, volunteered the information from day one. FUCK, Shiv never attacked you so stop ATTACKING HIM!!!---he's just like anyone else with a passion--> he gets irked if he thinks someone who doesn't know shit is trying to take advantage of those who don't know, or is trying to pass themselves off as experts. Reminds me of smucks who get a private pilots license and think they know more than the guys flying for the airforce and commercial airlines for 30 years....pisses me off:mad: :mad: Eurobahn or whatever the fucking name of that company is the new kid on the block. Shiv has put his time in and has proven over and over and over again he KNOWS WTF he is talking about. So let those boys take some heat and lets see them earn their place.

DAMN!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[radgator1]

Originally Posted by RiXst3r

wouldnt this cause a check engine light?

I don't know but I'm guessing it would have to be pretty severe to trigger a CEL. I mean if the system works how I think it does something as simple as hitting a pothole or putting 87 Octane gas in your car could cause the system to activate and they wouldn't want to be dealing with all the CELs. Terry was going to try to measure it directly so maybe we will get some data soon.

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by radgator1

How so? I wouldn't know where to start to measure knock retard. Dont try to read any more into it then what it says. Where is the data that the TT's lean AFR is causing knock that is subsequently activating the 335is knock retard system?

???

What are you talking about? I was just quoting you and wondering if you still had the TT attached. Measuring knock retard never entered my mind since I don't even know what it is.

BTW, how about that Shiv post regarding no increase in oil temps.

[RiXst3r]

Originally Posted by mesier1111

THATS IT....I"VE READ ENOUGH!!!!! he isn't striking fear in anyone, he is passionate, and he shared that passion with us for 7+ months, not just come along one day and say, "here is an upgrade, buy it for $800 and you will go faster". He, unlike anyone else I have seen on this forum, volunteered the information from day one. FUCK, Shiv never attacked you so stop ATTACKING HIM!!!---he's just like anyone else with a passion--> he gets irked if he thinks someone who doesn't know shit is trying to take advantage of those who don't know, or is trying to pass themselves off as experts. Reminds me of smucks who get a private pilots license and think they know more than the guys flying for the airforce and commercial airlines for 30 years....pisses me off:mad: :mad: Eurobahn or whatever the fucking name of that company is the new kid on the block. Shiv has put his time in and has proven over and over and over again he KNOWS WTF he is talking about. So let those boys take some heat and lets see them earn their place.

DAMN!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

dang, sounds like you and shiv need to get a room...

at least get your facts right...

shiv is the new kid on the bmw block
split second engineering has been tuning BMW's for many years

The only reason shiv provide more info than eurobahn is because the only person posting is Jeff from eurobahn, who is the distributer of the product, not the brains behind it... and the manufactoror (split second) doesnt lurk on internet forums.

[radgator1]

Originally Posted by mesier1111

THATS IT....I"VE READ ENOUGH!!!!! he isn't striking fear in anyone, he is passionate, and he shared that passion with us for 7+ months, not just come along one day and say, "here is an upgrade, buy it for $800 and you will go faster". He, unlike anyone else I have seen on this forum, volunteered the information from day one. FUCK, Shiv never attacked you so stop ATTACKING HIM!!!---he's just like anyone else with a passion--> he gets irked if he thinks someone who doesn't know shit is trying to take advantage of those who don't know, or is trying to pass themselves off as experts. Reminds me of smucks who get a private pilots license and think they know more than the guys flying for the airforce and commercial airlines for 30 years....pisses me off:mad: :mad: Eurobahn or whatever the fucking name of that company is the new kid on the block. Shiv has put his time in and has proven over and over and over again he KNOWS WTF he is talking about. So let those boys take some heat and lets see them earn their place.

DAMN!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

As far as I know, no one ever questioned Shivs knowledge and expertise. But you are really naive if you cant see that Shiv is at least as good of a businessman as he is a tuner.

The reason for all of his posts concerning the TT has nothing to do with him being a humanitarian, they are for one purpose, to sell more PROcedes. The reason for his posts in the AA thread and saying "where R&D doesn't stand for ripoff and duplicate" is to sell more PROcedes.

I don't know where anyone attacked Shiv and I am not saying he doesn't fully believe in what he posts since I have no way of knowing that, but if you can't see the business side of his involvment here on the Forum you are simply blind.

[lawdude]

How come Karl Hugh from Active hasn't showed up to 'splain his product, or have I just missed his thread?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Terry Burger

I stepped way from the thread for a bit so forgive the digression. You're right on the first point; load is the air mass being pumped through the engine. I'd argue with you on the second, as the slower acceleration rate allows more time for the cylinder to fill and thus increases load, but we're getting off my original point.

What you are seeing (less load in low gears) has to do with the engine spinning up to fast for the turbo. As a result, the turbo plays "catch up." It has nothing to do with cylinder filling as a function of acceleration. Yes, there are always secondary effects if we are taking about extremes in either direction but I can assume that we're being reasonable here.

I simply don't think detonation occurs often under part throttle, so the turbo-tuners leaner mix under part throttle boost shouldn't be a concern. Hopefully my HPTuners scanning program can read the BMW, going to toy with that tonight.

That's pretty funny, because the most common environment for detonation is during sudden changes in load such as the transition from low throttle to full throttle. So yes, this does often occur right during partial throttle conditions. It's usually referred to as "tip in" knock. I think we've covered all the bases, haven't we?

Shiv

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by radgator1

As far as I know, no one ever questioned Shivs knowledge and expertise. But you are really naive if you cant see that Shiv is at least as good of a businessman as he is a tuner.

The reason for all of his posts concerning the TT has nothing to do with him being a humanitarian, they are for one purpose, to sell more PROcedes. The reason for his posts in the AA thread and saying "where R&D doesn't stand for ripoff and duplicate" is to sell more PROcedes.

I don't know where anyone attacked Shiv and I am not saying he doesn't fully believe in what he posts since I have no way of knowing that, but if you can't see the business side of his involvment here on the Forum you are simply blind.

Yeah perhaps. But you purchased a T-MAP clamp

shiv

[DIRKD]

I did have respect for Shiv (not that my respect means anything) but lost it after him bashing the Turbo Tuner while not knowing exactly how it works. Until Shiv buys a TT himself and determines that it is not safe, let us decide what we want to put in our cars.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by DIRKD

I did have respect for Shiv (not that my respect means anything) but lost it after him bashing the Turbo Tuner while not knowing exactly how it works. Until Shiv buys a TT himself and determines that it is not safe, let us decide what we want to put in our cars.

That last one liner was a joke. Sorry if it was in bad taste. Please understand that we all know how the Turbo Turner words. We also know how it runs at WOT based upon the dyno graph that they posted. I think it's pretty fair for people with tuning experience to comment about what we are seeing. I've seen this same argument over and over again. That the PROcede and Turbo Tuner satisfy different markets. And bla bla bla. But, as a tuner myself, you satisfy markets by offering something that offers sins of ommission. Maybe it doesn't offer boost control. Or maybe it only holds one map. Or maybe it's not ugradeable. And so on.

You don't, ever, sacrifice that actual tune quality to achieve a certain price point. There are enough people on this forum that don't know much about tuning. The info that I and others are posting is for them more than anyone else. The amount of tuning-related BS that gets tossed around on this forum is concerning. Forgive me if I sound like a jerk when I take offense to some of it.

Shiv

[RiXst3r]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Yeah perhaps. But you purchased a T-MAP clamp

shiv

c'mon shiv... you cant joke around like that, people around here take your word as gospel... and you know its more than just a t-map clamp...

Originally Posted by Jeff@Eurobahn.us

The Turbo tuner is much more than just a boost increase. It also is a signal conditioner for fuel and temperature. . It is an embedded control solution that works seamlessly with the stock ECU. The turbo tuner provides real performance gains while it preserves the smooth and refined character of the car.

The Turbo Tuner is built using surface mount technology and state-of-the-art, pick-and-place automated assembly equipment for the ultimate in quality assurance and reliability. The design features a soft limit circuit that avoids overboost. This protects the engine from boost spikes and preserves drivability. There is also a temperature compensation protection circuit that lowers boost at elevated under-hood temperatures.

Jeff
Eurobahn

Originally Posted by Jeff@Eurobahn.us

(Terry Burger) "So the turbo-tuner also tweaks the iat sensor to trick the car in to reducing the timing? If so that is pretty neat, how much timing can it pull out doing this? 2-3 degrees?"

Terry your questions timing could not have been better as I was over at Split Second for a meeting! Here is what I was told, you are absolutely correct. The Turbo Tuner does indeed modify the iat sensor to pull timing. The amount varies depending on boost conditions and intake temperatures. However it can be a bit more than the amount you listed if it is needed. Air Speed and density play a big role in the way this vehicle is tuned constantly by the DME. This is also why the Turbo Tuner is a safe tuning option, it works with the onboard safety precaustions and adds another layer with it's built in temperature protection circuit.

Thanks for the excellent question Terry, it gave me a chance to learn something more about this wonderful car.

I hope you guys who are judging the Turbo Tuner will remember one thing. Not one customer of the device has ever asked for a refund or posted any bad experience what so ever.

Thanks,

Jeff
Eurobahn

The turbo tuner is a SAFE option for people wanting to add some power to their 335 easily and quickly, the procede is more expensive plus waiting over a month for delivery, and then having to take apart your car and fumble with wires in the ECU was just too much for me...

If you want MORE than just a quick, safe, noticable bump in power that the TT offers...... than get the procede! Jeff at eurobahn refers people to the procede when they ask for more power... there is no need for all the hostility.

[ArmyBimmerDude]

Originally Posted by DIRKD

I did have respect for Shiv (not that my respect means anything) but lost it after him bashing the Turbo Tuner while not knowing exactly how it works. Until Shiv buys a TT himself and determines that it is not safe, let us decide what we want to put in our cars.

And I hope you feel the same way when/if something goes wrong with your car because you took the cheapest, fastest route for limited additional power.

Remember that this is a brand new engine. I hope that everyone that buys a TT realizes that. You guys might as well have bought it on ebay.

[lawdude]

Several years ago I used to stalk the detailing boards. Anyone remember the Klasse/Zaino wars?